Remembering 1971!

[RajputFury]

*Originally posted by zaavia: *
RF, indeed we have a long way to go…if there is a just distribution of resources, and the other ethnicities feel that they have a say in Pakistan’s affairs, the small voices of dissent that we hear sometimes will also fade with the passage of time…

:k: No doubt about it.

I think your right on target. I hope for an inclusive Pakistan, where there is equity in distribution of resources. I am always willing to discuss solving interprovincial problems, but I take a hard line when I see racists whose first statements are to streotype or bad mouth an entire province. If someone comes with an actual grievance, of course I believe and accept problems that may have been caused by a Punjabi or whatever. Of course then there are those who love to propogate conspiracy theories, and all I can do for them is laugh

[Pakistani_Tiger]

*Originally posted by RajputFury: *

When PT said we are much better off without Bengladeshis and Punjabis are out brothers he was obviously talking about the fact that Bengalis wanted to leave Pakistan, thus having them remain in Pakistan and be disgruntled would have perpetuated problems. To the best of my knowledge there isn’t a pro-Independece movement going on, in fact most people are quite happy as Pakistanis, so are we not all brothers then?

PT, hope this was what you were saying, my apologies if I am putting words into your mouth.

Raj,

You are on the right track but let me add more. Bengalis wanted liberation, they got it. Bangladesh is a number one corrupt nation after Independence and Pakistan is on 25th rank. Who’s better? Let’s just not carried away. Both countries needs to focus on for the basic needs of population.

Just look at the relations of Pakistan and Bangladesh. We are like two brothers. Pakistan is a top military and sports good supplier to Bangladesh and the FTA(Free Trade Agreement) has been signed b/w the two countries during President Musharraf’s recent visit to Bangladesh to enhance trade and improve bitter relations.

Let’s flourish our relations for great prosperity of both nation. :k:

[system]

Rajput, you are the one who has been following me on every thread and accusing me of being anti Punjabi. Now prove how I am anti punjabi?

[Zakk]

Zaavia I recommend you read G W Choudhry's book, the last days of United Pakistan. It details the comlex issues of the negotiations between the Awami league and Yahya Khans government. Many of the issues have plenty of relevance to Pakistan even now. Saliks book is a good read ( a very sad read as well) but it has some mistakes, especially about the number of people who died. Most Independant estimates say almost a quarter of a million people died.

We have to remember the role many Bengalis played in the creation of Pakistan. The Pakistan muslim League was formed iin Dhaka, and one of the first ML provincial goverments was the bengali one. It was the only place where they could hold a big rally. The Bengalis also sacrificed their share as majority area in the 1956 constitution. Despite being 53% of the population they gave up their 3 % for the sake of National cohesion. West Pakistan's economy in the late 50's and 60's was made with the help of Jute exports.

Economically, Bangladesh has made major improvements after separation despite what happened during the war. Despite the corruption of it's leaders. It is better of in the sense of literacy and poverty alleviation then it was before 1971

[Different]

*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *

Excuse me? You aren’t qualify to judge my comments. Pakistan and Bangladesh have good relations. Indians are getting their ass kick.

I asked you “whether you followed all sayings of our Prophet SAW or just those that facilitate in justifying your point of view?” What brings in “judgements on your comments” … simply beats me!

*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
Shahbash, re-pharse, cut out my comments Different. Nice name you got there.

I didn’t re-phrase… I only referred to two of your own comments, and I want you to ponder over them a little… after having displayed your true feelings, how can you then expect non-Punjabi’s to believe you when you say that you are our brothers?

The truth is that no matter how much you try to convince non-Punjabis by saying that you think of them as their brothers, you cannot convince them because all of your actions prove otherwise.

[Different]

*Originally posted by RajputFury: *

Ah so nice of you to drop by Imda-- err Different.

It seems that you are convinced that Imdad and me are the same… Why do you ask this then?

*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Are you two twins or the same person with multiple personalities?

*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Still have nothing to say eh? .

I said what I wanted to, what is it that you want me to say?

*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
PT and anyone else reading this message, I am quite familiar with this ‘Different’ character who like to drop by and twist your words.

Referring to two different statements by the same person is not twisting of the words. Thanks for introducing me though!

*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
When PT said we are much better off without Bengladeshis and Punjabis are out brothers he was obviously talking about the fact that Bengalis wanted to leave Pakistan, thus having them remain in Pakistan and be disgruntled would have perpetuated problems. To the best of my knowledge there isn’t a pro-Independece movement going on, in fact most people are quite happy as Pakistanis, so are we not all brothers then?

Next time if PT says anything, I should ask you to clarify what PT meant?

I know most people in Pakistan do not have a problem and are happy as Pakistanis, but how can you ignore that most of the people in Pakistan are Punjabis. The one’s who are unhappy as Pakistanis are the non-Punjabis because they have realized that Pakistan is another name for Punjab!

*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
PT, hope this was what you were saying, my apologies if I am putting words into your mouth.

The truth is that a vast, overwhelming majority of people in all provinces want to stay as Pakistanis. Sure, they have problems, but they realize that the best way is to work through the system. I don’t want to open this up further, but everyone should compare Bangladesh’s economy with Pakistan.

What if I were to tell you the truth?

The truth is that a vast, overwhelming non-Punjabi majority of people in Sindh, Baluchistan and NWFP want to stay as Pakistanis, and they have realized that they are better off without Punjab and the best way to stay as Pakistanis is to get rid of Punjab and Punjabiyat. By the way Bangladeshi Taka is stronger than Pakistani Rupee!

You accuse me of being a racist, if every Punjabi believes that he/she is the most patriotic Pakistani because he/she is a Punjabi and that being a Punjabi makes them superior than others, then how come they are not racists? I hate them because of what they do, which to me is racism, yet you accuse me of being a racist just because I hate all Punjabi’s that are racists, ethnocentric, and all those who are in love with Punjabiyat?

Rajput is a caste to which you belong to, and you accuse others for being racists?

[RajputFury]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Slides: *
Rajput, you are the one who has been following me on every thread and accusing me of being anti Punjabi. Now prove how I am anti punjabi?
[/QUOTE]

Ah yes, another nick? Damn Imdad, your on a roll and fast losing it...

[RajputFury]

We have to remember the role many Bengalis played in the creation of Pakistan. The Pakistan muslim League was formed iin Dhaka, and one of the first ML provincial goverments was the bengali one. It was the only place where they could hold a big rally. The Bengalis also sacrificed their share as majority area in the 1956 constitution. Despite being 53% of the population they gave up their 3 % for the sake of National cohesion. West Pakistan's economy in the late 50's and 60's was made with the help of Jute exports.

Zakk, always a pleasure to read your comments. While everything you have said is true, relative to the contributions of North Indians (the term includes people from present day Pakistan), the contributions of bengalis were not equal. Our founder, our national poet who came up with the concept, the masses were largely non-Bengali. My point here isn't change or degrade the role of Bengalis but rather to illustrate their detachment from us from the beginning. Although they too yearned for a Muslim homeland, they became an uneasy partner in the new Pakistani state.

Economically, Bangladesh has made major improvements after separation despite what happened during the war. Despite the corruption of it's leaders. It is better of in the sense of literacy and poverty alleviation then it was before 1971

That is wonderful, but Bangladesh lags behind India and Pakistan in almost every economic category category. There have been strives by Bengalis but would you disagree when I say: Pakistan as a nation has had greater challenges after becoming a nation as it was carved out with limited resources and saw it's existance threatened on several ocassions, yet at this point we are atleast on par if not greater than India? I muist admit Pakistan is no Asian tiger but niether is Bangladesh. Read up on World Banks analysis and projections for the future growth and industrialization prospects.

[RajputFury]

The truth is that a vast, overwhelming non-Punjabi majority of people in Sindh, Baluchistan and NWFP want to stay as Pakistanis, and they have realized that they are better off without Punjab and the best way to stay as Pakistanis is to get rid of Punjab and Punjabiyat. By the way Bangladeshi Taka is stronger than Pakistani Rupee!

You accuse me of being a racist, if every Punjabi believes that he/she is the most patriotic Pakistani because he/she is a Punjabi and that being a Punjabi makes them superior than others, then how come they are not racists? I hate them because of what they do, which to me is racism, yet you accuse me of being a racist just because I hate all Punjabi’s that are racists, ethnocentric, and all those who are in love with Punjabiyat?

Rajput is a caste to which you belong to, and you accuse others for being racists?
[/QUOTE]

I know most people in Pakistan do not have a problem and are happy as Pakistanis, but how can you ignore that most of the people in Pakistan are Punjabis. The one’s who are unhappy as Pakistanis are the non-Punjabis because they have realized that Pakistan is another name for Punjab!

You claim that most Pakistanis are Punjabis, when the reality is that they form a simple majority barely greater than 50%. You also incorrectly believe that Pakistan is another name for Punjab, when the reality is that all Pakistanis have had a share in the country, for better or worse.

The truth is that a vast, overwhelming non-Punjabi majority of people in Sindh, Baluchistan and NWFP want to stay as Pakistanis, and they have realized that they are better off without Punjab and the best way to stay as Pakistanis is to get rid of Punjab and Punjabiyat. By the way Bangladeshi Taka is stronger than Pakistani Rupee!

Ok assuming that your analysis is correct then I challenge you to kick out Punjab! Seriously, if you think Punjab is responsible for all that is wrong in Pakistan then kick us out, btw, we will also take the name Pakistan with us (as per your statements that Punjab=Pakistan). I am tired of this BS where all Non-Punjabis are virtual angels that are oppressed and made miserable by Punjabis. Please! if you know your history, then you will see Sindh, Sarhad and Baluchistan becoming further segmented as provinces. There are so many ethnic/racial fractures in any province, that everyone will turn on each other after you take out Punjab. Punjabis have been the punching bags of everyone with an issue with Pakistan, I’d like to see things if we’re out of the picture. Yes I am aware of the exchange value, if you knew anything about monetary policy then you would know why Pakistan’s currency is placed in thaty position. Have you ever bothered to look up real exchange rates, PPP, and overall economic growth for both countries? I guess not.

You accuse me of being a racist, if every Punjabi believes that he/she is the most patriotic Pakistani because he/she is a Punjabi and that being a Punjabi makes them superior than others, then how come they are not racists? I hate them because of what they do, which to me is racism, yet you accuse me of being a racist just because I hate all Punjabi’s that are racists, ethnocentric, and all those who are in love with Punjabiyat?

You are racist no doubt. Tour crime? Stereotyping groups of people and creating disharmony between the provinces. No one has said Punjabis are the MOST patriotic, prove that such a mentality exists! What I do know is that the vast majority of Punjabis would put Pakistan over their home province at any time (myself included). If you hate racist Punjabis then how come you don’t hate racist Sindhis, Baluchis and Pashtuns? Why single out Punjabis only? It is because you yourself is a racist, and I am against all racists Punjabi or not…You logic obviously fails here.

Rajput is a caste to which you belong to, and you accuse others for being racists?

Haha, looks like your a “textbook scholar” although educated but lacking the research capabilities to see what the Rajput heritage is about. True Rajput has degenerated into a caste, but you obviously do not know the background. I am damn proud of who I am as a Rajput, Pakistani, Muslim and I will never back away from that heritage. I have never put down any other castes or any other Pakistani, so what are you talking about when I am accusing others of being racists?

Imdad or the clone of Imdad, find me a message anywhere on Gupshup where I have put down any Pakistani…an open challenge. Yes we have all seen Imdad run away from this thread for being (correctly) exposed as a racist, it is “Different’s” turn.

[Pakistani_Tiger]

**Respected Moderators of Pakistan Affairs, can you please closed this thread? The hate monger has been started by a person, twisting other peoples' comments. I'd be good move from your side. Dec. 16 is gone; and we have to move on despite of looking back!

Thank you.

Pakistani Tiger**

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Remembering 1971!

hmm, while skimming through the past posts I have come across this thread...way back in 2002...at that time I used to have this 'zaavia' nick...

does it seem we as a nation and our army has learnt anything from our past mistakes?

[Doppleganger]

Re: Remembering 1971!

And this thread becomes about Balochistan.

3....2...1....... whoosh

Ali sahab is on a roll! :D

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Remembering 1971!

Well it's interesting I had lost this nick, it's nostalgic to have found this thread. When the thread was opened the situation in fata, kp and balochistan was normal. The reason of the thread was just to discuss the reasons for 1971, it was not in my wildest dreams that we will again repeating the same mistakes again.

[Doppleganger]

Re: Remembering 1971!

For the nth time, balochistan is not like 1971 where bangladesh was a country of its own. I'd rather compare balochistan issue to the kurdistan issue not so far away in the middle east. I personally think that BLA, BRA etc are getting too much benefit of the doubt by our politicians, which isn't solving anything. There needs to be boundaries like balochis or whatever "they" are that are killing non-balochis can't get their voice heard through violence and you can't also kill non-balochis for the heack of it. In return, Pakistan could show some flexibility on balochi culture and language promotion and to make sure the people already living there get accommodation in jobs whenever reasonally possible.

Of course, it can't be like the gulf where the arabs reap the rewards for the western boot licking and ass whipping of the south asians and other "low castes" in the blue collar work force. My dad is friends with a sindhi doctor and the area he lives at has sindhis hanging out doing nothing all day and gambling at night. Pakistan just can't give privileged position or jobs to someone just because he is a sindhi in sindh or a balochi in balochistan.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Remembering 1971!

Well that could be true but we cannot generalize entire populations I know quite a few Sindhis who are established and hard working.

[Doppleganger]

Re: Remembering 1971!

I didn't generalize as I mentioned the sindhi doctor too (he got his education informally by working with other doctors), but my point was that no one is special just because they are the sons of the soil. From what I have seen at some balochi websites, their sardars aka leaders are very keen on having a gulf type system in balochistan which is not a sustainable model.

[rangoli]

Re: Remembering 1971!

tht's generalization Doppleganger ...

[Sachaydino]

Re: Remembering 1971!

Doppleganger,

**This thread is for 1971 tragedy. If you don't know what to say about this tragedy, then I would suggest to refrain from racist and personal comments.

Your dad is friend with Sindhi doctor, can you give his name, location where he practices? It is shame being a friend of your dad, you are back stabing him and his community. Shame on you.

I am not ZM's supporter. Are you sleeping or what? He has resigned and left PPP since 5 or six months ago. What this has to to do with your racism?
**

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Remembering 1971!

[note]guys please keep the tempers down! [/note]

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Remembering 1971!

Ok guys lets not open 10 years old threads. Also, we highly discourage racists/ethnocentric posts. Please see forum rules. Thread closed.