And for those of you who don’t know, Rajput hates non-Punjabis, or anyone else who questions the army.
East Pakistan
Now we know what happen, but do you think Punjab army learned it lesson, and would say sorry.
Prove it
Find a message where I said I have hated anyone Pakistani. Please 
more guppies have read your insane comments which harp on 2 things: Army and how all the provinces will secede because of Punjab.
Your views (however implicit) are on full display on this very thread, so don’t get childish on me by flipping my statements.
Rajput, why don't you PROVE that I hate Punjabis?
Yes, my comments are very insane. It is insane to say that army is running us into the ground.
Re: East Pakistan
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kinnare: *
Now we know what happen, but do you think Punjab army learned it lesson, and would say sorry.
[/QUOTE]
For heaven sake's, there's no Punjabi Army. You guys are out of your mind.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Rajput, why don't you PROVE that I hate Punjabis?
Yes, my comments are very insane. It is insane to say that army is running us into the ground.
[/QUOTE]
Hey Imdad, can you think for yourself or will you twist my statements again. By any logic of debate, I challenged you to prove my hatred, and you come back by saying the same.
Secondly, when you talk about "us" I hope you don't mean Pakistanis, because you certainly don't consider yourself one.
There are a lot of people and factors to blame for Pakistan's current situation, but for you to elevate the politicians as angels and the military becoming the devil, shows a highly flawed and simplistic thinking.
The difference between you and me is that I don't go out there and stereotype large groups of people. Hope you can see the reality.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Hey Imdad, can you think for yourself or will you twist my statements again. By any logic of debate, I challenged you to prove my hatred, and you come back by saying the same.
Secondly, when you talk about "us" I hope you don't mean Pakistanis, because you certainly don't consider yourself one.
There are a lot of people and factors to blame for Pakistan's current situation, but for you to elevate the politicians as angels and the military becoming the devil, shows a highly flawed and simplistic thinking.
The difference between you and me is that I don't go out there and stereotype large groups of people. Hope you can see the reality.
[/QUOTE]
So, basically you san't prove how I hate Punjabis, can you?
And I have never said that politicians are angels. The politicians are just as bad as the army.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
And I have never said that politicians are angels. The politicians are just as bad as the army.
[/QUOTE]
Imdad,
Not to be spitful the failure of democracy lies with the politicians and not with the military because they are the ones who make a mess of things allowing the military to step in to clear it.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
Imdad,
Not to be spitful the failure of democracy lies with the politicians and not with the military because they are the ones who make a mess of things allowing the military to step in to clear it.
[/QUOTE]
Then why has the military ALWAYS failed in fixing things?
And why is the military rigging elections and hiring lotas right now?
http://www.satribune.com/archives/dec16_22_02/opinion_niazi.htm
War on Constitution, Or War on Pakistan?
Dr. Tarique Niazi
THERE is only one person who stands between Pakistan and its Constitution: General Pervez Musharraf. Deep down, he knows that the day Constitution comes into force, he will be out of job.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Then why has the military ALWAYS failed in fixing things?
[/quote]
Excuse me? The country was near default, 2nd corrupt nation, sectarian killings were high. All of them have been fixed to some extent. More to that, Pakistan is able to make Sub-Marine and Al-Khalid MBT during this regime.
[quote]
And why is the military rigging elections and hiring lotas right now?
[/QUOTE]
Who said Military rigged elections? EU? Why PPP has always said elections have been rigged when ever they lost it? Military is not hiring lotas. They are coming to Military to form Govt.
Yes, EU said it. I believe EU more than GHQ.
How long will you keep denying the facts? Can you deny these facts?
http://www.satribune.com/archives/dec16_22_02/P1_overnightgenerals.htm
How Army Generals will become billionaires, overnight
Special SAT Report
RAWALPINDI: Top Pakistan Army Generals, and their fortunate juniors, who own prime property in the heart of Islamabad’s sister city, Rawalpindi, are on the verge of turning into billionaires over night.
More kickbacks and money making by our pious and honest generals.
The fact is, that generals are just better in hiding their corruption. They have the whole army system to hide it under.
http://www.satribune.com/archives/dec16_22_02/P1_PAFStory.htm
The PAF Kickbacks Scandal Revealed by Mistake
Special SAT Report
ISLAMABAD: Strong evidence has surfaced of Musharraf regime’s first major defense kickbacks scandal involving the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) last year when Pakistan purchased four CASA Transport aircraft from an Indonesian company for $50 million.
South Asia Tribune hahahahahah Big joke.
EU, they don't gotta right to give their reasons on Pakistan's Internal Matter.
Didn't I tell you before? Our politicians sell out to foreign media for their political status.
Are you kidding me? After all the statements your telling me I can’t prove myself. Very well:
To all anti-Pakistani provincial hate mongers
So I responded proving once again your obviously running out of excuses and the clever but oh so apparent word play. I have shown what you believe in, now it is your turn, why don’t you back up your claims about me hating non-Punjabis? I don’t think it needs to be said, but your contributions to this thread have nothing been Military bashing.
Bangladesh war was not only a military defeat but also a political one. East Pakistan was abandoned before the military even began. So yes, people like Tikka & Yahya Khan in the military are to blame but don’t forget who won the elections and who said “Hum idhar tum udhar.” Don’t forget that Yahya Khan a weak and easily manipuplated man, was (and may still be) the only leader in Pakistan to have transparent elections, do the archive search for the Times, BBC etc. The fact was that West Pakistanis as a people were not ready to accept E.Pakistanis as equals. Do you know of the status of Bengalis in W.Pakistan? Having low representation in the military was the least of their issues…from the outset a division was created when the Quaid declared Urdu and NOT Bengali to be the language of Pakistan. I do not believe that the military is the solution to the problems but over the bickering and non-stop corruption of ‘elected leaders,’ I would say a stable government whether through democracy or dictatorship is needed. The problem with Pakistanis is that we are always looking to find faults in our leaders. How about taking a balanced approach?
BB comes to mind. PT, I read an article in Pakistan Link, about NS possibly moving to London guess he’ll be joining BB on the “politicians who don’t know when to keep their mouths shut” list soon enough.
Precisely,
Benazir has already gotta home in London. News about Nawaz could be possible as his son lives in London. Another leader, Altaf Hussian has been living in London for more than a decade on self-exile.
RajputFury I liked your response last one to Imdad. I wish more people from province Punjab like you come farward and explain people of rest of the provinces that they are their brothers and sisters; and treat them equal as human beings from any aspect. Provincial hatred has been killing Pakistan like termites, which is why I always prefer Nationalism!
RF, I read some excerpts of a book called "Mainay Dhaka doobtay dekha" (I saw Dhaka sinking/falling)...in which the writer, says that in the late 60's the people of Bengal used to hate Pakistanis...so much so that when Pakistanis used to go to their shops, and they came to know that the customers were Pakistanis, their attitudes used to change...and they would order them angrily to leave their shops...he says that literally "unki aankhon main khoon uttar aata tha"...the guy says that, only a couple of years back, the people of Bengal used to like Pakistanis...we need to find out the factors that brought about that change, so those factors may be removed...the political and military factors came much later, since the situation had been already been deteriorated a lot...since we have already gone through the trauma of partition, we need to be more careful in the future...
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_16-12-2002_pg3_1
Editorial: Revisiting 1971
It’s December 16 again. Thirty-one years have passed since the Dhaka debacle of 1971 and yet Pakistanis have failed to learn the right lessons from that trauma. We have either tried to forget about it, erasing the horrible memory of that date, or remembered it for all the wrong reasons. The first approach has prevented us from developing as a politically, socially and economically viable entity; the second attitude has forced us to conceptualise a security paradigm from which we have been unable to recover so far.
Much of our energy and thought has been invested in trying to ward off the Indian threat since 1971. After all, it was India that rolled into East Pakistan and severed it off from the western wing. True, but that was just one moment in an episode that lasted 23 years and where we created the conditions that helped India to strike the blow. Imagine an Indian aggression in a situation in which the Bengalis had been convinced of their Pakistani identity, a situation where, because of their greater numbers, they had ruled Pakistan. Because that is what democracy is all about, isn’t it? But we were not prepared to accept that demographic and political reality. Even so, the Bengalis conceded to the politically and intellectually impoverished parity principle in the 1956 Constitution. But the civil-military bureaucracy would not let the system work. It equated the natural noise in the political system with ruckus, inefficiency, poor management skills and so on. It mixed up the concepts of management and leadership. As a corollary: it abrogated the 1956 Constitution, cancelled elections scheduled for 1959 and laid the foundations of a recurring cycle of instability from which we have never recovered. Worse, since then it has wanted to run the country as a corporation, even as a military unit.
No one was happy with these “unnatural” attempts at integration. One Unit was resented by all, including the NWFP and Balochistan. The Bengalis did not want to speak Urdu, a language then spoken by no more than 7 percent of Pakistanis. General Ayub Khan’s “ingenious” scheme to have Pakistan army contingents march through the streets of Dhaka failed to entice Bengalis to the army; its impact was more like the Nazis marching through the Sudetenland. From politically governing Dhaka from Karachi/Islamabad to — the apogee of strategic thinking! — fighting the war for East Pakistan on the western front, we did all we could to alienate the Bengalis, now Bangladeshis.
The timeline is full of ironies. We celebrate September 6 as Defence Day. That day, 37 years ago, we “successfully” defended ourselves against the Indian might. Truth is, we didn’t think India was capable of doing us harm. The Chinese had beaten up the Indians in 1962; we delivered them quite a neat jab at the Rann of Kutch and so it made eminent sense (for us) to dislodge them from Kashmir. That was the beginning of Operation Gibraltar and, later, Grand Slam. As the late Maj-Gen Shaukat Riza wrote in his book on the ‘65 War, we thought our strategic objectives were holier than India’s. This poverty of thought led us to believe the war would remain confined; except that it did not. Not only did it set the economy back, it unleashed social and political forces that had long been seething just below the surface.
But today is not just about what we did in the run-up to the disaster. It is about what we have done since then. There is not much to be proud of. Some readers might shake their heads angrily and accuse us of being negative; surely we are nuclear capable; surely we have missiles, in fact solid-fuel ones. But is that the calculus to measure the progress of a nation?
Let’s have a checklist. We are nuclear- and missile-capable, but we still haven’t developed a reliable power transmission system; we have computers but we need to shut them off because of power outages; we have begun manufacturing cars but still don’t know how to either drive or park them according to the norms of civil society; we have failed to develop an industrial base or even modern work ethics. So while we keep devaluing our rupee in the hope that it will boost our exports we fail to realise that that is the function of a technology- and work-related culture. In any case, most of us cannot relate to the world because we are more interested in a medieval ethos than a globalised one.
In politics, we are still sliding along the very grooves that led to disaster in East Pakistan. The military is still part of the problem even as it insists on providing solutions; political instability is a direct effect of our inability to develop a principle of succession based on the legitimacy of an agreed and consensual political culture and institutional mechanisms. On the economic front, we remain a dependent economy. The only thing we can cite as a major indicator of our economic health is the US$ 9 billion foreign exchange reserve we now have, courtesy cash inflows tied to the pleasure of the United States. It’s like a poor man buying a lottery ticket and hitting the jackpot; that’s luck, not progress.Our education is a small disaster. That alone means we are not going anywhere. So, what do we do? There are solutions, but they will not be heeded. The culture we have evolved thinks tactically. There is nothing broad or long-term about it. It’s about small minds and small victories, being pennywise and pound-foolish. December 16 beckons us to change that. *
Ironically all you say the BD people hate Pakistanis, have any of you actually been to BD? Our journalists are nothing but idiots. I suggest you all go to BD and see how they react to Pakistanis. There is sorrow, there is unhappiness. Why? Because we could not stay one nation. We transgressed. We committed crimes against muslims. And they are upset that we did all this. There is very little anger left. Heck how could their be anger left when your class mate is now the General in Pakistan and vice versa. Those who trained in West Pakistan then are now the leaders of BD now.
Pakistan did a great many things wrong. The first was letting Mujib live. He should have been killed off. There were a good many patriost in BD and they were left out to dry by the FO and their like.