Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
81

Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

What people? Elaborate a bit please.

If you think Sipah-e-Sahaba, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi or Tehrik-e-Taliban type people are those who want to impose their ideology at the gunpoint then I do not agree with you here.

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi for example uses violence against shias for many reasons; shias have assassinated their leaders including Haque Nawaz Jhangvi and later leadership. Still their activists are killed in the country at the hands of shias' terrorist squads. So basically it's a tit for tat killing. You can't blame Lashkar-e-Jhangvi etc alone for all this violence. Shia militias are equally responsible for it.

And let's say that shias don't like that Sipah-e-Sahabah guys call them kafirs.

Well we Ahl-as-Sunnah also hate when shias call the companions of the Prophet s.a.w kafirs. So who started this takfiri campaign?

If shias stop slandering the companions and stop publishing blasphemous material, I'm sure the situation will improve a lot.

It's only that shias instigate and annoy the mainstream of Muslims by using tabarra (cursing the sahabah), so you can't put all the blame on sunnis' extremist organizations.

And 1400 years have passed, they haven't yet been united, you and I can't do it either unless they stop calling names to the revered personalities of sunni Islam.

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

Pardon me I purposely said pplz without saying who are actually those pplz. I was talking about those pplz who don't believe at all in Islam.

So u want me to ellaborate what kind of pplz :) Same thing goes when u talk about 'shia' than u must talk about a particular person i.e., shia and not labeling or blamming the whole shianism. Good and bad peoples exist in all and there are many good peoples who will read and listen ur words carefully that might be kinda help for them. Hope u get what i'm trying to say.

Let me tell u a guy wearing turban was sitting next to my seat in train when i was coming back from IBD to LHR. That time I had beard but in a stylish way. He start talking about how to keep beard, how to read namaaz and also how to wear any dress code etc.,. I told him I don't want to discuss all these just leave me alone. But he was keeping giving me lecture. At the end he shown me a certificate of his prayers (namaaz) are perfect & acceptable which was given to him by his superior. I asked u received a certificate which confirms u r namaaz are perfect and acceptable but how and who will going to confirm namaaz of ur superior than is perfect and acceptable? He was chup.

Reason for shairing that there are many pplz who will listen u very carefully and maybe or maybe not, think about it later on but the way u approach I think is not 'oky'.

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

I understand what you mean. And I don't disagree with you that good and bad people are among all communities. If someone is a born sunni or shia, it doesn't make them perfect. I am not saying that all shias curse the companions PUBLICLY. It's like someone swears at our parents in front of us. Wouldn't it be so upsetting?

In the month of Muharram, they hold congregations and a zakir must curse the companions indirectly and sometimes directly. Those who know their history understand who the zakir is referring to. For example they say 'the first three' (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman). An educated shia who's done masters from a reputable university listens to such talks and it's fine for him. Alright, if they do it privately, so that the sunnis won't hear the hate speech, there's no problem. But what to do when such hate speech is done on loud speakers and religious text is published with such content?

I seriously believe, there has to be legislation in order to curb the blasphemy of all religions and sects. Hate speech must be recognized and then banned all over the country. This way we can protect the rights and lives of people which are lost in the name of sectarian and religious violence.

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

Tears of a mother are heart breaking and equally painful whether they are shed on the death of a sunni or a shia!

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

And I agree with ur both posts :k:

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

One interesting thing about neo-khariji takfiris is that they are used to "pious lying", that is, lying for the sake of religion. I am not sure if this is taught in their madressahs or they just develop it themselves. But it happens.

One example of this phenomenon is right here. These guys say that they call shias kafir only because shias call the three caliphs kafir. It obviously is a preposterous lie which can never be proven. But even if for a moment one considers it true, one may ask why do they then call OTHER Muslims kafir too?
This question takes out the air from their balloon.

They pretend to be only against shias but in reality they are a minority which is against ALL Muslims, not just shias. This is evident not just from their takfir over any Muslim disagreeing with them, but also from the destruction of Islamic relics they have caused in Hejaz. This destruction is not specific to any particular sect but against Islam in general.** They are even planning today to destroy the grave of the Prophet of Islam and the two caliphs as well**. This shows that the every Muslim is their enemy, not just shias.

This is also evident from the people they have targetted in Pakistan. It includes not just shias but also sunni mosques, and shrines. They have even declared democracy kufr and anyone working for democracy a kafir.

Takfir is their middle name. That's why they are neo-kharijites.

Now let's talk about killing of Sipahe Sahaba terrorists. In a civilized society, no one should be allowed to take the life of another person no matter how many people that person might have killed. It is only the courts who have the right to punish any terrorist. But in Pakistan, the judges, policemen etc are afraid of these marauding criminals, and they let these terrorists go free because they receive death threats against themselves and against their family members. There are many cases of this unfortunately and it has been discussed several time here.
In such a scenario, some relatives of the victims pick up arms and kill those terrorists on their own. This is not acceptable in a civilized society, but in a society being ruled by kharijis, sometimes this is the only way possible to punish them. It is for this reason that such killings of terrorists are understandable, even though not exactly the right thing to do.

It would be laughable to say that Sipahe Sahaba members were "innocent". Because it is clear as sun that Sipahe Sahaba/ Lashkare Jhangvi have been involved in most killings of Muslims (shias and sunni) across the country. This is precisely the reason why they were banned by the government in the first place.
**
**
And comparing killings of these terrorists to the killings of a common shia/sunni Muslim is like the comparison of apples and oranges. One is a member of a known banned terrorist group whose only aim of existence is to abuse and kill Muslims. And other is just another common person who happens to born in a Muslim family which that terrorist group dislikes.

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

Agreed. Now do not support those khariji terrorists who kill both shias and sunnis in the name of their devilish cult.

Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Moulana Saleem Qadri, founder of Sunni Tehreek, was killed by the terrorists of Sipah-e-Sahaba in 2001. In April 2006** a grand Barelvi congregation celebrating the birthday of Muhammad on Eid Milad un Nabi was suicide-bombed**. Out of the 1,500 that had gathered, 57 died and over 100 were injured. The attackers were identified as members of the hardline Sunni sectarian group, Sipah-e-Sahaba. They believe celebration of the prophet’s birthday is a sin. [SUP][8]](Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan - Wikipedia)

[/SUP]http://www.yanabi.com/index.php?/topic/363464-sunni-tehreek-issues-three-day-ultimatum-to-evict-sipah-e-sahaba-from-two-mosques/

The Sunni Tehreek (ST) has given a three-day ultimatum to the government to get two mosques belonging to the Jamaat Ahle Sunnat evicted from “terrorist groups.” This was announced on Thursday at a press conference at the ST office.

A rally in this regard will also be staged after Friday prayers, from the Jamaat Ahle Sunnat Markaz to Empress Market.

“The government should get the two Jamaat Ahle Sunnat mosques vacated from Sipah-e-Sahaba; otherwise we will announce our future line of action and the government will be responsible for the consequences,” ST Ulema Board Deputy Convener Allama Khizr-ul-Islam Naqshbandi said.

The ST has also announced issued a strike call on Friday and a countrywide “Day of Condemnation” against the alleged desecration of holy places and crackdowns against Jamaat Ahle Sunnat activists. The group has demanded that a ban be imposed on the defunct Sipah-e-Sahaba, which, they said, misusing the name of Jamaat Ahle Sunnat. “The Sunni Tehreek has no links with this banned militant outfit,” Naqshbandi claimed. “Ten of our people were killed and 80 injured in Dera Ismail Khan on the 12th of Rabiul Awwal.”

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

It goes to show, reason is never paramount in the minds of the overly religious, be they Shia Sunni, Christian or Hindu.

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

The Saudis are messed up. If they touch the grave of the Holy Prophet (saw), may God destroy their kingdom. These leeches got their power by helping the brits against the Turks. Yet, our fire breathing mullahs love them and hate those that they helped.

Don't know much about Iran but I wouldn't doubt that they are just as messed up. Theocracy is just bad business regardless of which sect is in power.

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

So what is the point of this thread?

Tolerance or intolerance? :hmmm:

91

Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

A classic example of twisted logic.

From ghulam hussain najfi

From Bahar ul Anwaar

Will inshallah add up more in next post -

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

Why it is that you dont mention sipah e muhammad, mukhtar force, ISO, lashker e mehdi type organisations in this list.

Why shias? just becuase they dont show respect for sunnis, abusing mother may be acceptable to some but not for any ghairat mund muslim, just stay aqay from this tabbara bazi whilst you already are the most privileged group in pakistan, where as sunnis are the most sought after group in iran. I know many tablighe jamaats that go for dawat in iran (for sunnis- thats how they work ) and it is known that toughest country for sunni muslims is iran.

and i have just quoted what jhangvi group says, scholars at deobandi school of thought just dont support them, as it the duty of islamic government to stop such aqaidh.

Such a lame logic for justifying killing of ahl e sunnat :nook:

Bit busy at the moment, will back up with more evidence later some day inshallah. Please write to the point post as a ahsaan on me.

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

Never thought i would ever like any of your post. Agree with what you stated.

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)


Are you talking about "taqiyaa"?

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

Khoji.

Need your comments on posts 91/92

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

There was a time when I used to indulge in religious discussions all the time. But then I realized that it is nothing but a waste of time. Religious people, all religious people, are just too much confused. People interpret things differently even when belonging to the same group.

So what you posted above is the opinion of some which others may or may not agree with. And I don't have time to play the fruitless game of religious cat and mouse. I know some people, like yourself, enjoy this game, but I really don't enjoy it anymore. Like I said, to me such debates are waste of time.

All I want to say about your post above is that Shia scholars do not consider any caliph a kafir.
And I am more concerned about killing of innocent people, then calling each other kafir.

Now the point you missed and overlooked was what I said later in that post. I had said that if neo kharijis are killing Shias because they think Shias consider the three caliphs kafir, then why do they kill Sunnis?
This proves this justification to kill Shias is bogus.

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

Another religious discussion. What I understand is that taqiyyah is to save one's life only.
It is a pretty logical concept and I think everyone would do that.

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

To start khoji, justification of killing any one be it sunni or shia is bogus. You tried to justify one in your previous post which was not right.

[QUOTE]
Now let's talk about killing of Sipahe Sahaba terrorists. In a civilized society, no one should be allowed to take the life of another person no matter how many people that person might have killed. It is only the courts who have the right to punish any terrorist. But in Pakistan, the judges, policemen etc are afraid of these marauding criminals, and they let these terrorists go free because they receive death threats against themselves and against their family members. There are many cases of this unfortunately and it has been discussed several time here.
In such a scenario, some relatives of the victims pick up arms and kill those terrorists on their own. This is not acceptable in a civilized society,** but in a society being ruled by kharijis, sometimes this is the only way possible to punish them. It is for this reason that such killings of terrorists are understandable,** even though not exactly the right thing to do.
[/QUOTE]

Having said that

You claimed that shias dont call rightous calips kaffir, i can show you many other evidences including the scholars that you have faith on( ghulam hussain najfi was very popular amongst current shia lot, principle of one the the biggest shia madressa in pakistan) .

Would i have mentioned this if you did not claimed what you claimed (and now proven wrong)? We are discussing religion, you brought this in discussion and now are unwilling to accept it. how naughty :o

How can we stop each other for killing? what do you want sunnis to do? whilst scholars amongst you keep bad mouthing/abusing personalisties dearest to us more then our parents?

Please think about what damage this thinking is doing, majority is trying to give as much relaxation as it can and just in turn require that you do not abuse personalities they love based on some historical mumbo jumbo?

My request to you and others is to analyse with unbiased approach. and not to claim some thing which you dont know about. :D

Lakum deenakum wali ya deen.

Leaving this discussion for readers to decide.

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

I still say that shias do not call any caliph kafir. Shias say that Ali gave sincere advices to all caliphs in the larger interet of Islam. He wouldn’t have done it if he considered them kafir.

You left the decision to be made by readers. Which is good thing. But using words of few to make sweeping generalization against millions of people is false.

We all know that khawarij can never be satisifed. So it is pointless to talk sense to them. But for those who have doubts, here is a reply from a shia source.

Do the Shia consider Abu Bakr and Umar as kafirs?
Therefore, neither does the Shia consider Abu Bakr and Umar as kafirs, nor did Imam Ali (as) totally accept them and their caliphate; all he did was, when it was to Islam’s benefit, to cooperate with and give help and consultation to them.

Now my question which continues to be overlooked is: if khawarij say that they are against Shias for calling caliphs kafir then why do they kill Sunnis?

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Re: Religious Tolerance (Shias and Sunnis)

Anyone part of a violent khariji organization deserves to be punished for inciting murder of innocent Muslims.
This punishment should come from the courts but if courts are derelicting their duties in protecting the lives of innocent people then these people will take up arms and punish those responsible for killing Muslims.

Sipahe Sahaba, Taliban and their affiliates kill innocent people, and therefore their extremist khariji members deserve punishment.