Religious Misunderstandings

[AllahkaBanda]

:bism:

@psyah

Peace bro AllahkaBanda

I hear what you saying … You are saying that Athari is not a theosophical position, because the basis of Athari is non-speculative and non-derivative in matters of the ghaib.

Wa As-Salamu 'Alaykum bro

The position of Athari in matters of Tawheed is to ONLY relay on Islamic text as a proof and understanding it how the salaf understood it. However, it must be noted that the Khalaf sunni 'ulama did use common sense and logic to refute the claims of Ash’aris/Maturidis and/or to explain the meaning of the text.

@psyah

But if I have not mistaken what you are saying … you are in fact saying that if anyone follows the 'Ashari or Maturidi and are from any of the four madhahib are Sufi and to be called a Sunni it is necessary to be an Athari.

i.e. Athari = Sunni and 'Ashari/Maturidi = Sufi

no, being sufi is a completely different thing. We describe them as i.e. Hanafi Maturidi or Maliki Ash’ari. They could be sufi too. However, it is true that they are not among Ahlus Sunnah and it is correct that to be a sunni, you must be an Athari.

@psyah

This is an interesting perspective and is probably not one that the 'Ashari or Maturidis will necessarily concur on. Furthermore you are also saying that because it is a matter of 'aqeedah Sufis are not considered part of the fold of Islam by Atharis. Am I right?

yes it is true that they don’t consider us among the Ahlus Sunnah and claimed themselves to be sunni but what is their basis for it: Aristotalian philosophy? As far concerning whether they are out of fold of Islaam or not, I’m not going to comment on it. However, the Salaf and the early 'ulama did say that if a person doesn’t believe that Allah is above the heavens over His throne then some said he is a kafir and some said he comitted kufr. We do find similar statements from later hanablis i.e. ibn Qudama (rahimahullah). Have a look at this, it could be an interesting read for you.

@psyah

Personally I resort to At-Tahawiyya 'Aqeedah primarily because it is simple and secondly because it has a wide cross-section of acceptance.

there’s nothing wrong with this as long as you understand the text according to the athar of the Salaf and understanding of the sunni scholars.

@psyah

However, in some practices such as dzikr and tazkiya I have no real problem about, as these are not matters of 'aqeedah but are methods of tassawwuf it makes the one who practices them a Sufi. Therefore can it be possible to be doing sufi style dzikr and still be an Athari? And if not why not?

in some cases tassawuf (sufi way) is an 'aqeedah issue, for example believing the wali has ilmul ghayb. The sunni way of tassawuf has exited from the ver beginning. You can refer to the works of Imaam ibn Qayyim (rahimahullah).

@psyah

I prefer calling all of these sunnis and then brotherly dialogue can take place, because to be honest I have not made up my mind regarding any one position yet I see valid arguments in each, however, I am sure truth lies somewhere in this particular melting pot. The danger in bra.nding is that it becomes and excuse not to be ‘like’ because they are ‘the others’ and more often than not we see this happening.

I understand your point and concerns. Most of the awam (laypeople), who may be listening to or respect a ash’ari/maturidi Imam are upon the haqq because they don’t dwell into these issues and are upon their fitrah. Even some of the prominent ash’aris in our time say that such issues should only be discussed in the setting of a class room. The reson why we (sunnis) oppose them in public is due to the fact they bash us in public, spread hatred against us, slander us and our 'ulama.