Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

[Theorist]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Guac

That is a hard question to answer. I guess it will depend on what the specific ‘miracle’ is and the situation around it.

Let me try to explain it using an example, I’m not sure this is exactly a miracle but close enough:

Growing up I have always heard the hadith about the Sun rising from the West as a sign of Judgment day. Now I know some people may not believe in hadiths or this particular hadith but just go along with me here. Now if one day I wake up to the Sun rising from the West or I see it on the news all over the world…what would be my honest knee jerk response? Would I try to find a logical scientific reason how this happened out of nowhere? Or would I run, find a jaanmaz and start praying my heart out?

As much as I would like to think I am a woman of science…I would do the latter. Because at the end of the day, I believe. I have faith. For me that risk wouldn’t be worth it.

Do I believe that the person who tries to find an scientific answer behind such a phenomenon is wrong? No not necessarily. Because if enough time has passed I would probably due to same…but my knee jerk response would be to believe.

For the sun to rise from the West, the earth will have to come to a complete stop and start to spin the other way around. If that were to literally happen suddenly, you and I would be dead before you could grab your janamaz. So yes, if that really happened, it would certainly be the end of us. Having said that, what could cause earth to start spinning the other way?

[Guac]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Theorist

For the sun to rise from the West, the earth will have to come to a complete stop and start to spin the other way around. If that were to literally happen suddenly, you and I would be dead before you could grab your janamaz. So yes, if that really happened, it would certainly be the end of us. Having said that, what could cause earth to start spinning the other way?

I don’t know how logistically it could happen hence it being a ‘religious’ event of some sorts if we lived to witness it…which was what I was trying to get at

All of my answers are based on the big if

[Theorist]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Guac

I don’t know how logistically it could happen hence it being a ‘religious’ event of some sorts if we lived to witness it…which was what I was trying to get at

All of my answers are based on the big if

I realize that. It just made me wonder because I never thought about it myself.

[Southie]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

Circular logic is all one can offer when offering religious explantations for phenomena not yet understood by science. There are infinite What if scenarios that can be offered to back up ones religion and its teachings and “scientific prognostications”.

If results were not disastrous, there would be no harm. But it leads to people to stop thinking and trying to figure things out for themselves

The latest COSMOS show was a good example. At one point Tyson said, for us to ignore light we receive from several stars, we would have to accept universe is only 6500 years ago. Thus denying existence of stars that we KNOW exist.

Mixing religion with Science is not harmless. It is dangerous. And counter productive. IMHO.

[Theorist]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Southie

Circular logic is all one can offer when offering religious explantations for phenomena not yet understood by science. There are infinite What if scenarios that can be offered to back up ones religion and its teachings and “scientific prognostications”.

If results were not disastrous, there would be no harm. But it leads to people to stop thinking and trying to figure things out for themselves

The latest COSMOS show was a good example. At one point Tyson said, for us to ignore light we receive from several stars, we would have to accept universe is only 6500 years ago. Thus denying existence of stars that we KNOW exist.

Mixing religion with Science is not harmless. It is dangerous. And counter productive. IMHO.

It is dangerous for the young minds. I agree with that. Their imagination should not be restricted by religious dogma. Who knows they may grow up to find answers to the big questions that we constantly argue about.

[Southie]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

Indeed, the youth is our future. So especially “their imagination should not be restricted by religious dogma”. However, as a person on the wrong side of "x"ty, I gently object to the implication that it is dangerous only for young minds. Every person can do thought experiments at any stage of his / her life. Some are late bloomers. Some get a second wind after retirement to learn and grow.

[TLK]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

Oye tum sab ke sb pagal ho. Thinking that in order to embrace the full potential of science, we need to stay away from religion is limiting yourself.

[Southie]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@TLK

Oye tum sab ke sb pagal ho. Thinking that in order to embrace the full potential of science, we need to stay away from religion is limiting yourself.

Oye Zara SMS ka jawab tho deter jao bhai!

Which religion should one use as a guide. The Books are simply thoughts put down by wise folks centuries ago. Who had zero knowledge of Science.

[Guac]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Theorist

I realize that. It just made me wonder because I never thought about it myself.

I tried to think of a way that someone like this could happen realistically but can’t. The best I can do it that the earth’s speed decreases with time and eventually it starts rotating the other way. Why? No idea. But even then we would be able to forecast it and the days would be obviously getting much longer.

Maybe someone else can make a theory for the why

This was an interesting excerpt:

“The Earth’s rotation axis moves with respect to the fixed stars (inertial space); the components of this motion are precession and nutation. The Earth’s rotation axis also moves with respect to the Earth’s crust; this is called polar motion.
Precession is a rotation of the Earth’s rotation axis, caused primarily by external torques from the gravity of the Sun, Moon and other bodies. The polar motion is primarily due to free core nutation and the Chandler wobble.
Over millions of years, the rotation is significantly slowed by gravitational interactions with the Moon; both rotational energy and angular momentum are being slowly transferred to the Moon: see tidal acceleration. However some large scale events, such as the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, have caused the rotation to speed up by around 3 microseconds by affecting the Earth’s moment of inertia.[SUP][35]](Earth's rotation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Post-glacial rebound, ongoing since the last Ice age, is also changing the distribution of the Earth’s mass thus affecting the moment of inertia of the Earth and, by the conservation of angular momentum, the Earth’s rotation period”

So maybe some internal event within the Earth’s crust might lead to the switch in rotation???

[Theorist]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Guac

I tried to think of a way that someone like this could happen realistically but can’t. The best I can do it that the earth’s speed decreases with time and eventually it starts rotating the other way. Why? No idea. But even then we would be able to forecast it and the days would be obviously getting much longer.

Maybe someone else can make a theory for the why

This was an interesting excerpt:

“The Earth’s rotation axis moves with respect to the fixed stars (inertial space); the components of this motion are precession and nutation. The Earth’s rotation axis also moves with respect to the Earth’s crust; this is called polar motion.
Precession is a rotation of the Earth’s rotation axis, caused primarily by external torques from the gravity of the Sun, Moon and other bodies. The polar motion is primarily due to free core nutation and the Chandler wobble.
Over millions of years, the rotation is significantly slowed by gravitational interactions with the Moon; both rotational energy and angular momentum are being slowly transferred to the Moon: see tidal acceleration. However some large scale events, such as the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, have caused the rotation to speed up by around 3 microseconds by affecting the Earth’s moment of inertia.[SUP][35]](Earth's rotation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Post-glacial rebound, ongoing since the last Ice age, is also changing the distribution of the Earth’s mass thus affecting the moment of inertia of the Earth and, by the conservation of angular momentum, the Earth’s rotation period”

So maybe some internal event within the Earth’s crust might lead to the switch in rotation???

Didn’t think about that. I have to do my own research. Good observation though!

[Theorist]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Southie

Oye Zara SMS ka jawab tho deter jao bhai!

Which religion should one use as a guide. The Books are simply thoughts put down by wise folks centuries ago. Who had zero knowledge of Science.

Exactly! Too many religions with one message but a million ways to say it. In the end, it confuses more than it resolves.

[Monk]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Theorist

Exactly! Too many religions with one message but a million ways to say it. In the end, it confuses more than it resolves.

Try to get respect from us non secular folks too.

Research religion a bit more.
All boil down to first 2 or 3 commandments.

Christians.(2100 year ago )
"“The most important one,” answered Jesus, "is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these."

Hindus: (5000 years ago)

“He knows truth who knows
This God as one.
Neither second or third
Nor fourth is He is called;
Neither fifth nor sixth
Nor seventh is He called;
Neither eighth nor ninth
Nor tenth is He is called.
He surveys all that breathes
And that breathes not.
He possesses the Power of Supreme
He is One,
The One Alone.
In Him All divine powers
Become the One Alone.”
[Reference: Atharva Veda 13.5. 14-21]

“He is One and one remains alone;
There is no Second God.”
[Reference: Atharva Veda 13.5.20]

** jews(mosse)(2100+1440 = 3540 years ago)**
**35. "To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him. **
**39. "Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. **

see a simple pattern ???

[TLK]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Guac

I tried to think of a way that someone like this could happen realistically but can’t. The best I can do it that the earth’s speed decreases with time and eventually it starts rotating the other way. Why? No idea. But even then we would be able to forecast it and the days would be obviously getting much longer.

Maybe someone else can make a theory for the why

This was an interesting excerpt:

“The Earth’s rotation axis moves with respect to the fixed stars (inertial space); the components of this motion are precession and nutation. The Earth’s rotation axis also moves with respect to the Earth’s crust; this is called polar motion.
Precession is a rotation of the Earth’s rotation axis, caused primarily by external torques from the gravity of the Sun, Moon and other bodies. The polar motion is primarily due to free core nutation and the Chandler wobble.
Over millions of years, the rotation is significantly slowed by gravitational interactions with the Moon; both rotational energy and angular momentum are being slowly transferred to the Moon: see tidal acceleration. However some large scale events, such as the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, have caused the rotation to speed up by around 3 microseconds by affecting the Earth’s moment of inertia.[SUP][35]](Earth's rotation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Post-glacial rebound, ongoing since the last Ice age, is also changing the distribution of the Earth’s mass thus affecting the moment of inertia of the Earth and, by the conservation of angular momentum, the Earth’s rotation period”

So maybe some internal event within the Earth’s crust might lead to the switch in rotation???

when you roll a ball to one side, it slows down and eventually stop, but unless you rolled it up a slop, it would not start rolling back in the opposite direction. Same is with the earth. IT could slow down and maybe stop, but I doubt about the opposite direction part. That does not mean that sun cannot rise from the west. 2 events could do that.

1. A body of pretty heavy mass zooms passed the earth from east to west. The gravitational pull can immediately put earth in the opposite rotation. But I am assuming that it would be a very heavy object and it would pretty much destroy the earth too (more details later if needed)

2. The best chance is if earth literally topples over upside down. The north pole goes down, and south comes up. Earth would continue to rotate in the same direction from our perspective but now sun would rise from the west as we are upside down. That I think could happen as earth is already quite tilted. Uranus is pretty much on its side. 180 degree flip could happen

[Theorist]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Monk

Try to get respect from us non secular folks too.

Research religion a bit more.
All boil down to first 2 or 3 commandments.

Christians.(2100 year ago )
"“The most important one,” answered Jesus, "is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these."

Hindus: (5000 years ago)

“He knows truth who knows
This God as one.
Neither second or third
Nor fourth is He is called;
Neither fifth nor sixth
Nor seventh is He called;
Neither eighth nor ninth
Nor tenth is He is called.
He surveys all that breathes
And that breathes not.
He possesses the Power of Supreme
He is One,
The One Alone.
In Him All divine powers
Become the One Alone.”
[Reference: Atharva Veda 13.5. 14-21]

“He is One and one remains alone;
There is no Second God.”
[Reference: Atharva Veda 13.5.20]

** jews(mosse)(2100+1440 = 3540 years ago)**
**35. "To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him. **
**39. "Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. **

see a simple pattern ???

To Maine Kia kaha hai? One message but too many ways of saying it. It destroys the actual message. The whole process of decoding religious texts and interpreting them makes people focus on unimportant issues. If people were really capable of understanding God and his message and not kill religion with their own fatwas, then mankind would have to come to terms with it already. But no, we must fight each other tooth and nail and make sure no one questions it. Questioning religion is good. This attitude of questioning is what leads to true faith. What good is inherited faith for?

In my few years of life on earth, I have questioned God repeatedly. I have done my research but woh kente hain na, dhoondne se khuda bhi miljata hai. Jis me kabhi Justuju hi na ki ho us ka khuda Kese hoga?

[Monk]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

ok

[Theorist]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@TLK

when you roll a ball to one side, it slows down and eventually stop, but unless you rolled it up a slop, it would not start rolling back in the opposite direction. Same is with the earth. IT could slow down and maybe stop, but I doubt about the opposite direction part. That does not mean that sun cannot rise from the west. 2 events could do that.

1. A body of pretty heavy mass zooms passed the earth from east to west. The gravitational pull can immediately put earth in the opposite rotation. But I am assuming that it would be a very heavy object and it would pretty much destroy the earth too (more details later if needed)

2. The best chance is if earth literally topples over upside down. The north pole goes down, and south comes up. Earth would continue to rotate in the same direction from our perspective but now sun would rise from the west as we are upside down. That I think could happen as earth is already quite tilted. Uranus is pretty much on its side. 180 degree flip could happen

What could cause such a major pole shift in earth? That is what I am wondering about. About earth changing its direction, I wonder if earth ever gets hit by a very big asteroid, couldn’t that change its rotation?

[TLK]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Theorist

What could cause such a major pole shift in earth? That is what I am wondering about. About earth changing its direction, I wonder if earth ever gets hit by a very big asteroid, couldn’t that change its rotation?

For it to experience an axis tilt of that scale, it has to come under some tremendous outside force. That would be disaster for the people of earth.

I doubt if asteroid hit could do that. The one that killed all the dinosaurs did not impact earth that way, and anything bigger than that would kill everyone so even if earth changed the orbit after that, it would not be much of nishani of qayamat as everyone would be gone already.

[TLK]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

if solar system could get into head on course with some wandering planet or brown dwarf, then things could majorly shift from norms. That time, earth could possibly change its spin.

[Theorist]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@TLK

if solar system could get into head on course with some wandering planet or brown dwarf, then things could majorly shift from norms. That time, earth could possibly change its spin.

Reminds me of crazy theories about planet Nibiru or Planet X! some people actually believe it existed. They say its destruction created the asteroid belt. They say the inhabitants of Planet X or Nibiru left the solar system and may return. I only wonder…

[TLK]

Re: Religious miracles with possible scientific explanations

@Theorist

Reminds me of crazy theories about planet Nibiru or Planet X! some people actually believe it existed. They say its destruction created the asteroid belt. They say the inhabitants of Planet X or Nibiru left the solar system and may return. I only wonder…

If that planet was indeed there, then it must be very very cold for anyone to survive. NO?