As you know several hundreds of pakistani soldiers surrendered and joined the enemy last week. This was done allegedly in the name of no wanting to fight felloe muslims even though they were out of control and working actively to subvert interests of pakistan as a country.
Do religius minded people agree with this? Or will they be ready to condemn this act and tell the army that nationa of pakistan’s interest must supercede that of islam as the religion?
Re: religious impact on military - question
^
It simply doesn't. The conflation of Islam and the state is complete in Pakistan, and only asinine secularists would think (hope, wish?) otherwise. The interests of Islam is the same as the interests of Pakistan, and vice versa.
In civil matters, the army is just another side. These same people had no problem working hand-in-hand with the army on their 'Islamic' ventures into India and Afghanistan. I don't doubt the conviction of the average Pak soldier. It's just that there's a fork in the road now, so the battle is between those who support the current government, and those who don't. This has nothing to do with defending national integrity, really, since the actions of the army show the factional division as it stands.
Normally, the army is unbiased, and in the background. Their influence on politics should be nominal. We have a situation here, now, where the army is the army of a particular political organization. So claims of them fostering national cohesion (which transcends political bounds) is simply a farce…they’re the foot soldiers of Mushy’s political ambitions. Of course there's going to be these kind of civil conflicts now. From nationalists in the provinces, to their former allies among the Islamists.
One can condemn this act of alleged treason...but then, the army needs to return to it's role of guardian of the average citizen...not just Mushy and his supporters. This, at least for the condemnation to carry any weight. Otherwise, this is by definition factional fighting, and ALL sides must be condemned. That the religious invoke Islam shall not blackmail us into supporting them through religious sympathy. Nor shall the fac tthat it's the national army Mush is employing for his gain blackmail us into supporting him out of any sense of patriotism.
Re: religious impact on military - question
What Pak army soldiers did is great(If they're not going to fight against any muslim but if they're going to fight and kill any muslim on behalf of taliban then they're wrong).......Taliban should follow these soldiers and they should stop suicide bombings and killing muslims.
Re: religious impact on military - question
^ So it's never a good policy to fight Muslims? Are non-Muslims the only poor suckers we should be killing?
Re: religious impact on military - question
^ So it's never a good policy to fight Muslims?
Yes, its never a good policy.
Are non-Muslims the only poor suckers we should be killing?
No
Re: religious impact on military - question
As you know several hundreds of pakistani soldiers surrendered and joined the enemy last week. This was done allegedly in the name of no wanting to fight felloe muslims even though they were out of control and working actively to subvert interests of pakistan as a country.
Do religius minded people agree with this? Or will they be ready to condemn this act and tell the army that nationa of pakistan's interest must supercede that of islam as the religion?
how are the interests of the terrorists and militants liek al qaeda and taleban even remotely in the interests of islam?
in this case the interest of islam, interests of pakistan, and interests of the world are in alignment. we need to take these fools out..
Re: religious impact on military - question
The problem is that [not started by Zia, but accelarated] that islam is a big thing in pakistan. People are very emotional about the religion. The govt sort of allowed the deobandis to be the spokesperson of islam in pakistan much like abdul wahab was given the religious ministry of the saudi arabia.
This is where the fault started. Now, the extremist feelings are well entrenched in our establishment and military making it harder to reform anything. US / kaafir west whatever you like to call it will keep kililng muslims [through proxies or directly] unless you try to get your act together. I don't see anyone trying to get their "act" together. That happens with one's own self [nafs] like the prophet and the sahabas did. It is easy to do lectures but then follow your nafs [be a maulana deeezel or sammi sandwich etc.].
Re: religious impact on military - question
try to get your act together
Please explain a bit more...what does it mean by trying to get your act together?
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Yes, its never a good policy.
On the contrary, I think it's never a good policy to say a group of people (no matter the affiliation) is exempt from being an enemy. That's foolish. That means the innocent-killing Taliban, dictators that kill their people like Saddam and ethnic cleansing like in Sudan will only continue.
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No
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So if non-Muslims are off limits to fight and Muslims as well, does that mean you think fighting, wars, jihad and killing is never permissable?
Re: religious impact on military - question
On the contrary, I think it's never a good policy to say a group of people (no matter the affiliation) is exempt from being an enemy. That's foolish. That means the innocent-killing Taliban, dictators that kill their people like Saddam and ethnic cleansing like in Sudan will only continue.
All I wanted to say that killing and killing and killing is not the only solution.....like killing of Saddam hasn't solved anything but it has only increased killings.
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^ I agree. But killing should not be limited to or inspired by another's religion.
Re: religious impact on military - question
^ I agree. But killing should not be limited to or inspired by another's religion.
you can only kill those non-muslims who are fighting you on the battlefield.....is that fair enough?
Re: religious impact on military - question
ok, fair enough. is it also possible to kill musilms you are fighting on the battlefield? or is it never possible for muslims to fight or kill other muslims?
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ok, fair enough. is it also possible to kill musilms you are fighting on the battlefield? or is it never possible for muslims to fight or kill other muslims?
If a muslim is being attacked by a muslim then he can defend himself trying his hardest not to kill him but if he is attacking a muslim then he is wrong.
Re: religious impact on military - question
I'm sorry, but "trying his hardest not to kill him" is the silliest thing I've read here yet and that (mainly thanks to your posts) is saying a lot.
This Muslim-centric myopia where all Muslims = good and only non-Muslims can be your enemy is illogical, impractical, idealistic, dangerous, foolish and a host of other things that demonstrate no grasp of reality.
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It's kinda shocking that people seem to think the army can disobey command and surrender to enemy as long as the enemy is muslim.
Does it mean that they'll not attack a battalion of foreign soldiers comprised of muslims?
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^ No, evidently it is wrong to attack a Muslim. Only in self defense, if you are attcked by a wayward Muslim may you defend yourself, but you have to try your hardest not to kill them.
Re: religious impact on military - question
^ No, evidently it is wrong to attack a Muslim. Only in self defense, if you are attcked by a wayward Muslim may you defend yourself, but you have to try your hardest not to kill them.
dude, thats bullwash (hogs are haram)... and u know it too, sadly ppl posting it dont.
Re: religious impact on military - question
It's kinda shocking that people seem to think the army can disobey command and surrender to enemy as long as the enemy is muslim.
Does it mean that they'll not attack a battalion of foreign soldiers comprised of muslims?
For what purpose are these foreign soliders fighting for?
If either you or Seminole think that the average American soldier would sooner remain loyal to a General that is fighting for personal gain, rather than an opposing force that claims to fight for Freedom, Truth, Justice, and all the other good stuf....then you're smokin.
If a Muslim army goes up against another, then there better be a damn good reason other than fulfilling a perverse anti-Islam fantasy. What's the cause? Because blind patriotism to any people who commit to an ideology is a non-starter. No one thinks that way except sophists.
Seminole,
I find it odd that on the one hand you decry Muslim-on-Muslim violence, then on the other proclaim such pro-unity ideas as somehow unbecoming and nefarious.
Hareem,
A state has every right to crush fitna, which by definition is Muslim-on-Muslim violence.
Re: religious impact on military - question
^Well lets see how long it'll take the state to crush this fitnah created by state itself.
Americans are still crushing fitnah in iraq that they created themselves, in their struggle to crush fitnah the governments of the world have made this world a dangerous place to live and who's suffering the most? The poor innocent people.