Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

[USResident]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

Hi Semi

Just popping in ...

@Seminole

IMO, wars shouldn't be a part of life. If man ever progesses to the level God wants us to, there won't be any more of this senseless killing. The final message from God will not teach us how to kill or have a warrior as the final prophet. That's why out of the Abrahamic religions I gravitate toward Christianity. If everyone lived their life as preached by Jesus Christ, there wouldn't be any more wars.

Muslims can say the same thing. If every lived by the message Muhammad SAW brought or believed in Allah SWT alone there would be no reason to fight either.

@Seminole

I could equally go into the reasons why I don't think the Quran is the unadultered truth from God or Muhammed the last prophet, but I realize how holy these things are to Muslims, so I don't out of respect. But I will tell you that for every reason you give for the Bible not being the word of God can be multiplied by 10 as to why hadith are not, and many Muslims treat it like it is. Or at least have turned Islam into the practice of not just the words and wishes of God, but the cultural interpretation of how it was practiced 1400 years ago.

Now your comparing the Bible with the hadith here. This was supposed to be about comparsion between the Bible and the Quran.

[USResident]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

I can tell you only what I believe. I don't think one has to have original words from God, an angel, someone told by an angel as told by God or a prophet for the words and message to be inspired by God. I don't think there exists a text book on earth with God's direct words. He's not that simplistic. So "original form" is way overplayed in my book.

So while it is very possible Jesus' words were not recorded 100% accurately, I believe his message as presented in the Bible was inspired by God and is a model for man to follow. There has been constant changes in the interpretation of scripture and how it is practiced.

Even if scriptures were revealed and preserved in original form doesn't mean the religion is practiced as God intended. Just because one believes their scripture to be 100% original and pure doesn't mean that all their religious practices and beliefs are 100% correct or necessary. How much of the dogma, rituals and practices are actual from this preserved, original book and how many are from the way early followers decided the religion should be practiced? A good bit. So all religions are basically man made but inspired by God whether the original scripture was prerserved or not.

ahh! but with the original scriptures there is always a chance to correct yourselves when you interpret it properly. One cannot reinterpret a scripture that may have been changed to change its doctrinal interpretation.

[Seminole]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

Muslims can say the same thing. If every lived by the message Muhammad SAW brought or believed in Allah SWT alone there would be no reason to fight either.

That's a good thing. But apparently that message isn't getting across in Islam either.

[quote]
Now your comparing the Bible with the hadith here. This was supposed to be about comparsion between the Bible and the Quran.
[/quote]
Why was it 'supposed to be'? The bottom line is that both are used to determine how the religion is interpreted, influenced and practiced. My point is that it doesn't matter how unchanged the orignal scripture was if a huge portion of how the religion is practiced is based on things that didn't come from the original source.

[quote]
ahh! but with the original scriptures there is always a chance to correct yourselves when you interpret it properly. One cannot reinterpret a scripture that may have been changed to change its doctrinal interpretation
[/quote]
You mean like hadith? As I said, it is used by majority of Muslims to tell them how to practice their religion. How to act. How to pray. How to treat others. What to eat. How to fight. How to make love. etc

Kind of irrelevant in Islam anyway since there is rarely any re-interpretations to occur lest one be labeled a non-Muslim.

[USResident]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

That's a good thing. But apparently that message isn't getting across in Islam either.

Better than departing from it under the hood of secularism as in the case of Christianity.

Why was it 'supposed to be'? The bottom line is that both are used to determine how the religion is interpreted, influenced and practiced. My point is that it doesn't matter how unchanged the orignal scripture was if a huge portion of how the religion is practiced is based on things that didn't come from the original source.

Err! We were discussing scriptures i.e. divinely revealed scriptures. To me hadith are not 100% divinely revealed scripture.

You mean like hadith? As I said, it is used by majority of Muslims to tell them how to practice their religion. How to act. How to pray. How to treat others. What to eat. How to fight. How to make love. etc

No we're discussing Quran and Bible as the fundamental scriptures of the two religions.

Kind of irrelevant in Islam anyway since there is rarely any re-interpretations to occur lest one be labeled a non-Muslim.

But the door is still open. For Christianity re-interpreation means to shake the very foundations of Christianity and deviate from the doctrine.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

semi I see what you are trying to say. I just wanted to make one minor correction in your last post

although there are more interpretations than one would notice at the surface. with the same hadeeth as a basis we have the 4 'schools of thought' or 'madhab' as the word was invented by some to give them a more formal 'school of thought' or 'madhab' status than interpretation.

then beyond that there are differing views on tons of hadeeth. you just dont see that because the group that usually talks the loudest gets the attention. if you look on this board itself you will see different stances of people inter-sect, intra-sect, inter-'madhab', intra-'madhab'

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

Err! We were discussing scriptures i.e. divinely revealed scriptures. To me hadith are not 100% divinely revealed scripture.

and I think what semi is saying is that for many others hadeeth is considered as or treated as a divinely revealed scripture. you dont have to go far just read the thread on mutawatir ahadeeth.

Now beyond that, if we say hey we look at hadeeth as a compilation of likely sayings of the prophet and leave it at that, as I think you and I do, then your argument is very valid of the comparison between bible and quran.

I think you are talking about unchanged status of the revelation, semi is talking more about how the faith is practiced.

[Seminole]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

Better than departing from it under the hood of secularism as in the case of Christianity.

Better? I'm not sure if a warrior prophet is better for advocating peace or not.

[quote]
Err! We were discussing scriptures i.e. divinely revealed scriptures. To me hadith are not 100% divinely revealed scripture.

No we're discussing Quran and Bible as the fundamental scriptures of the two religions.
[/quote]
Not sure when "we" were discussing only the Bible and Quran. It is a misnomer that the Quran is teh sole source for Islam. As I pointed out, a very large portion of the way Islam is practiced is dictated by hadith, so it does not make sense to exclude it when discussing when comparing religoins. If there were a Christian equivalent, that would be on the table as well.

[quote]
But the door is still open. For Christianity re-interpreation means to shake the very foundations of Christianity and deviate from the doctrine.
[/quote]
Have you ever heard of the Reformation? Christianity continues to be re-interpreted. No doors have been closed. They might one day throw out the whole Old Testament. Other original scriptures may turn up. Who knows? Besides, as you know, there is little acknowledgment within the religion that the scriptures are corrupt.

[USResident]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

@Seminole

Better? I'm not sure if a warrior prophet is better for advocating peace or not.

Warrior prophet ... now lets not get carried away here. When you add an adjective to someones personality then make sure it is because that particular trait dominates their personality and teachings. Emphasis on dominates ... you cannot prove that peace dominated the life of Jesus PBUH either by a few incidents. Jesus PBUH was a prophet of Allah SWT and he did his appointed task. The course of prophets is determined by Allah SWT not solely themselves.

@Seminole

Not sure when "we" were discussing only the Bible and Quran. It is a misnomer that the Quran is teh sole source for Islam. As I pointed out, a very large portion of the way Islam is practiced is dictated by hadith, so it does not make sense to exclude it when discussing when comparing religoins. If there were a Christian equivalent, that would be on the table as well.

You missed the point here. Quran is the revealed scripture as is the Bible claimed by Christianity. Hadith comprise mostly the narratives of the Prophet SAW life history, which ofcourse exemplifies details of the religion. The fundamentals of Islam are embedded in the Quran as are the fundamentals of Christianity in the Bible.

@Seminole

Have you ever heard of the Reformation? Christianity continues to be re-interpreted. No doors have been closed. They might one day throw out the whole Old Testament. Other original scriptures may turn up. Who knows? Besides, as you know, there is little acknowledgment within the religion that the scriptures are corrupt.

Christianity is reformed under whose authority? I can understand laws being re-interpreted or applied based on changing circumstances but I can't digest doctrinal changes or reforms especially when Christians claim to have a link with the Holy spirit which guides them. Would rather seem that the Holy spirit cannot make up its mind as what it really wants mankind to know it as then.

[Seminole]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

Warrior prophet ... now lets not get carried away here. When you add an adjective to someones personality then make sure it is because that particular trait dominates their personality and teachings. Emphasis on dominates ... you cannot prove that peace dominated the life of Jesus PBUH either by a few incidents. Jesus PBUH was a prophet of Allah SWT and he did his appointed task. The course of prophets is determined by Allah SWT not solely themselves.

I apologize for the generalization that came with usage of that term. In my haste to type my thoughts quickly I take shortcuts. My point was to draw a distinction. No offense intended.

I abhor references that can condone violence and bigotry in any text that claims to come from God, be it the Bible, Quran, Torah or anywhere else. They all contain references to violence and I think those messages were meant for their time. That's why I believe Jesus came to balance out the Old Testament.

What I do know is that the message of Jesus (as per the Bible) is something I can believe came from God and could even be His last ‘official’ message to mankind. I can’t find that with any other Abrahamic religion to use as the foundation of my belief. Can I prove that peace dominated Jesus life? I can by the Bible. His Biblical teachings and what he represented, if not directly from God, definitely has God' hand on it.

[quote]
You missed the point here. Quran is the revealed scripture as is the Bible claimed by Christianity. Hadith comprise mostly the narratives of the Prophet SAW life history, which ofcourse exemplifies details of the religion. The fundamentals of Islam are embedded in the Quran as are the fundamentals of Christianity in the Bible.
[/quote]
No, I haven’t missed your point. As Mr. Fraudia suggested, I contend that the practice of Islam is heavily dependent on hadith, so it is irrelevant where the ‘fundamentals’ came from. That’s why I say religions are man-made. It doesn’t matter if the original scripture was recorded on high definition DVD, interpretation defines how the religion is practiced, which in turn defines the religion.

[quote]
Christianity is reformed under whose authority? I can understand laws being re-interpreted or applied based on changing circumstances but I can't digest doctrinal changes or reforms especially when Christians claim to have a link with the Holy spirit which guides them. Would rather seem that the Holy spirit cannot make up its mind as what it really wants mankind to know it as then.
[/quote]
Another reason I gravitate towards Christianity is that today the rules of interpretation are not so stringent and allow for a modern interpretation without being declared a heretic. The Holy Spirit allows for a religious experience that is more personal and spiritual rather than dogmatic, communal or historical. God is spiritual and around us this very second. I don’t have to refer to ancient scripture or a lineage of scholars, follow a specific set of rules or speak a different language to be close to Him.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

semi

now not all of the words of jesus are about peace are they? in addition he did not abolish the old testament he added to it, so for him to repeat what was in the old testament would be redundant.

[picoico]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

I abhor references that can condone violence and bigotry in any text that claims to come from God, be it the Bible, Quran, Torah or anywhere else. They all contain references to violence and I think those messages were meant for their time. That's why I believe Jesus came to balance out the Old Testament.

I've always asked, and never been given a satisfactory answer, to how one can reconcile Jesus' message of peace with his rather obvious silence on the nature of the Roman empire and it's inherent militarism. Could it be that his message was one of compliance, and not peace?

I think talk of peace should be understood within the then contemporary conflicts within the Jewish community. There were many who were awaiting a messiah to lead a violent rebellion against the Romans. The Jews were waiting for a warrior prophet, as you say.

But Christ's mission was strictly to spread the Word, not to engage the Romans. A good choice, as the Jewish rebellion would end in disaster.

But had the odds been more favorable, would Jesus still have ordered Christian compliance to an obviously repressive Empire? I don't know.

The Christians seemed to have been warned against the folly of that kind of venture...as a matter of pragmatism, not necessarily principle. If so, then Christ should have had a major problem with the Romans. He certainly would not have ordered Christians to be loyal Roman citizens.

[Seminole]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

semi

now not all of the words of jesus are about peace are they? in addition he did not abolish the old testament he added to it, so for him to repeat what was in the old testament would be redundant.

I am not a literalst or a fundamentalist. Many wouldn't call me Christian but many who call themselves Christian have a different definition of Christian than I do.

I believe you can get to God through many paths - Islam and Chritianity are just two of them. But for me, Jesus' message overall message of peace, tolerance, love, forgiveness and respect I can associate with as a final message from God.

[Croquet]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

pick and choose. i abhor this side of religion therefore i believe it never existed.tailor made, custom fit.

[Seminole]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

I've always asked, and never been given a satisfactory answer, to how one can reconcile Jesus' message of peace with his rather obvious silence on the nature of the Roman empire and it's inherent militarism. Could it be that his message was one of compliance, and not peace?

My thought is that it would have dated his message. Too specific to a specific time and place. It would have been cluttered with battles, armies, death setences, uprisings, army commanders. That wasn't his message. We don't need to know if he was married or his wives' names. We don't need to know the names or ranks of his successors or which way he faced when praying or how he brushd his teeth. Tht wasn't his message.

[Seminole]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

pick and choose. i abhor this side of religion therefore i believe it never existed.tailor made, custom fit.

I've said many times, one doesn't need 1 billion comrades to validate a belief. Just because your beliefs fall into a box that has been defined by history, scholars, tradition and assimilation doesn' make it any more correct than mine.

[USResident]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

I apologize for the generalization that came with usage of that term. In my haste to type my thoughts quickly I take shortcuts. My point was to draw a distinction. No offense intended.

Understood.

I abhor references that can condone violence and bigotry in any text that claims to come from God, be it the Bible, Quran, Torah or anywhere else. They all contain references to violence and I think those messages were meant for their time. That's why I believe Jesus came to balance out the Old Testament.

So would this mean that you would not fight for right? You would not fight for someone being wronged or someone being oppressed? So you would always welcome a smack in the face and not say a word against it.

This peace loving argument is one the most senseless ones I hear. You do agree God created all that their is in terms of emotions, physical entities, spiritual beings such as devils and angels. You do agree that all these can be associated with varying levels of peace and violence yet you can't believe God would command people to fight against injustice and opppression. Most of your actions in life would definitely contradict your words here.

What I do know is that the message of Jesus (as per the Bible) is something I can believe came from God and could even be His last ‘official’ message to mankind. I can’t find that with any other Abrahamic religion to use as the foundation of my belief. Can I prove that peace dominated Jesus life? I can by the Bible. His Biblical teachings and what he represented, if not directly from God, definitely has God' hand on it.

The circumstances of Jesus PBUH life are similar to the context of the muslims when they were in Makkah and lived totally peaceful and oppressed lives. When I say similar I mean that both lacked the power to strike back against the persecution and both led peaceful and compliant lives.

No, I haven’t missed your point. As Mr. Fraudia suggested, I contend that the practice of Islam is heavily dependent on hadith, so it is irrelevant where the ‘fundamentals’ came from. That’s why I say religions are man-made. It doesn’t matter if the original scripture was recorded on high definition DVD, interpretation defines how the religion is practiced, which in turn defines the religion.

Fundamentals are beliefs not practices and they are not dependent on hadith. Some fundamental practices are dependent (not exactly dependent) but explained in more detail in hadith i.e How to pray and zakat related stuff.

Another reason I gravitate towards Christianity is that today the rules of interpretation are not so stringent and allow for a modern interpretation without being declared a heretic. The Holy Spirit allows for a religious experience that is more personal and spiritual rather than dogmatic, communal or historical. God is spiritual and around us this very second. I don’t have to refer to ancient scripture or a lineage of scholars, follow a specific set of rules or speak a different language to be close to Him.

Christianity does not have a too many rules to begin with so Yes you can have all sorts of interpretations. There is not much depth or breadth to Christian teachings, the only thing that requires some depth is the doctrine of Trinity and no one knows what it exactly is and is discouraged from pondering too much about it. Christianity has very little to do with real life. And what it does is not much different from what is in Islam.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

But Christ's mission was strictly to spread the Word, not to engage the Romans. A good choice, as the Jewish rebellion would end in disaster.

But had the odds been more favorable, would Jesus still have ordered Christian compliance to an obviously repressive Empire? I don't know.

The Christians seemed to have been warned against the folly of that kind of venture...as a matter of pragmatism, not necessarily principle. If so, then Christ should have had a major problem with the Romans. He certainly would not have ordered Christians to be loyal Roman citizens.

Excellent point as always picoico
I think the period of Jesus[pbuh] life is very much like the life of our beloved Prophet [pbuh] before the hijrah , when he his family and sahaba-e-karam went thru many trials and tortures including exile for three years in a barren valley.....if assuming Muhammad[pbuh] had been martyred by the Meccan Kuffar at that time he would have been remembered as an arabian Jesus .....

[USResident]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

I believe you can get to God through many paths - Islam and Chritianity are just two of them. But for me, Jesus' message overall message of peace, tolerance, love, forgiveness and respect I can associate with as a final message from God.

Semi, this is a generalization on your part. Jesus did not teach to tolerate anything or be peaceful at all times and circumstances or love everything or every action or forgive unconditionally with choice or respect everything whether right or wrong. Islam also teaches tolerance, forgiveness, love, respect and peace in general terms just as you claim Jesus PBUH did, which makes sense because Jesus PBUH was also a Prophet of Allah SWT.

[Seminole]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

Christianity does not have a too many rules to begin with so Yes you can have all sorts of interpretations. There is not much depth or breadth to Christian teachings, the only thing that requires some depth is the doctrine of Trinity and no one knows what it exactly is and is discouraged from pondering too much about it. Christianity has very little to do with real life. And what it does is not much different from what is in Islam.

We have different interprations of depth and breadth. You look to religion for an instruction book for every day living. I look at it as a spiritual guide. I happen to think spirituality has more depth than detailed daily life instructions that are supposed to apply to me as equally as to someone from a different continent from a different time in history.

I don't need instructions on 'real life'. Treat others as you expect to be treated about sums it up. It's the instructions on the spiritual life I seek.

[Croquet]

Re: Religious extremists in 3 faiths share views:

I've said many times, one doesn't need 1 billion comrades to validate a belief. Just because your beliefs fall into a box that has been defined by history, scholars, tradition and assimilation doesn' make it any more correct than mine.

yes well you are certainly entitled to your belief. but that doesnt make it a christian belief so to speak. i mean when you compare three religions and say this is why i go for christanity and that reason is not a part of christanity to begin with than it does sound a little more than fabricated and weird.