Religious Conversion - Should they be allowed ?

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
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One of the states in India recently passed a law against conversion by ‘Force, Fraud or Allurement’ . This law was basically aimed at Christian missionaries who are involved in these conversions. Most of the people who convert are either economically very poor or low caste hindus who not only poor but treated as ‘Untouchables’. These charities promise to help these people only if they become christians.

I am all for it if such conversions allow a family to educate its children, or earn their living. What do you guys think about such Conversions ?

No religion or country bashing please.

PS :- Please do not move this thread to Religion forum because I want people to discuss it as a social issue not as a religion issue.

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People who convert in an effort to gain social help in the form of money, education, etc, are not really converting in the first place.

Converting to another religion should come from the heart, not from someone waving money at them.

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I don't like it but if a law is going to be passed effectively preventing aid to the poor then the state should provide for them instead.

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Asif, for the very reason you don't want this thread in Religion section, religious conversion for non-religious reasons seems ill motivated and therefore should be treated as exploitation of poor.

I have read of community leaders bargaining with local governments that they'll convert en masse if the other offer is not matched. That is blackmail and interference with due process and therefore a legislation checking that sounds valid.

Ofcourse the devil (or God in this case) is in the detail. If the law is written or so interpreted with bias to any particular religion or sect - that'd be cause for concern

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Tom - Nowhere I said it is not exploitation of Poor, but isn't it better for the person if that exploitation helps him in getting 'do waqt ki roti' and/or education for his children ? Isn't it better if his new religion helps him in getting a small job and helps him support his family and educate his children .

I could not figure out the blackmail part though, How is it a blackmail ? As far as I know, A missionry doesn't force to convert, does it ?

Infact I agree with Xtreme's view that If the state is going to make a law against it, they better take responsibility and make sure such situation does not arise and they should provide the untouchables equal social status and poor better life.

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Most of the times, in India people convert not because of the christian priests waving their money at them, but due to the discriminating behavior of the Higher caste hindus towards the lower castes…

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=174536

**Attack on Dalit triggers mass conversion
PRESLEY THOMAS
**
TIMES NEWS NETWORK WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 2003 02:00:55 AM ]

BHITASI/ANAND: **A month after a 28-year-old Dalit, Raman Vankar, was allegedly beaten to death by upper caste persons in the Vankar Vaas village, 25 Dalits embraced Buddhism on Tuesday.
**
The Dalits who included Vankar’s family members, adopted Buddhism on Tuesday. The conversion was organised by the Vishwa Boudh Sangh.

**Residents of the Vankar Vaas say they are still slaves of the upper-caste Darbars who dominate the village.

"If we continue to follow the same religion, we will be beaten to death even if we make the mistake of sitting on the verandah of a temple,’’ says Nirmala Solanki.**

Raman Vankar was allegedly beaten to death on July 25. Though the medical officer had issued a certificate saying his injuries were not serious, Raman succumbed to his injuries on August 8. Dalits have sought police protection as they still fear for their lives. Four state reserve police constables have been posted at the Vaas.
**
‘‘Why should I continue to follow a religion which does not allow us to freely worship in a temple?’’ asks Raman’s sister Vimla.

‘‘Converting to Buddhism is a bliss. At least, we will earn some respectability in the society,’’ adds Vimla.
**
She alleges the police are not taking any action against the accused even though she has received letters threatening to kill her. ‘‘They are moving around freely and threatening us.’’

Raman’s father Valjibhai Vankar says, ‘‘We can’t assert our right for freedom. The atrocities have been going on for ages now and it’s high time we got out of this rut. Now the upper castes will not have any say in our lives.’’

The same sentiment is echoed by Jetwa Vankar, another resident of Vankar Vaas.

‘‘I have been trying to start a business of my own to earn a living. But I refrained from it fearing the backlash from the members of upper castes. Now, I have sought for a loan to buy an autorickshaw,’’ he says.

Even 65-year-old Dayabhai Harkhabhai Vankar has adopted Buddhism.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zaavia: *
Most of the times, in India people convert not because of the christian priests waving their money at them, but due to the discriminating behavior of the Higher caste hindus towards the lower castes...

[/QUOTE]

Zaavia - I am sure you have not lived in india long enough to know that and your knowledge is limited to such cun-n-paste articles. I have lived in the most casteist state (Bihar) in India and I have not seen any such conversion there. Only conversion I have seen there is by the Tribals who are very poor and I dont think they are Hindus. Having said that, I am not denying that there are places in India where people convert for the reasons you have mentioned, But they can be considered as isolated cases.

Once again, This discussion is not about Why people convert to other religions. It is about is it okay to have such conversions and/or should there be a law against such conversions.

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Re: Religious Conversion - Should they be allowed ?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
These charities promise to help these people only if they become christians.
[/QUOTE]

That is just sick and disgusts me. All human beings in need are deserving of charity, irrespective of religion.

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What I am interested in, is how are they enforcing this law? And what will be the implications?

Are they planning to convict the people who convert or the ones who convert them? How can you tell if someone was forced into a convertion? A personal confession of the convert or the one who converted him?

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i think it should baned since it gives advantage to countries with money.
it is better to be 100% islam or hindu or christian instead of 33% of each faith fighting each other.

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Rvikj - So it is okay for people to die of hunger as Hindu but it's not okay to have decent life as a christian, Muslim etc ?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
Rvikj - So it is okay for people to die of hunger as Hindu but it's not okay to have decent life as a christian, Muslim etc ?
[/QUOTE]

food for faith is not a good idea. any country with relgious devisions
have no future even if they survive starvation. they will will only survive to fight. look at the adavntage of china they pit india/pakistan against each other.

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Well again the answer to your question was in the article, when the people of lower castes dont consider themsleves equal to the higher one's, why shouldnt they join religions which give them equality? I dont think that they should convert for the sake of money, but its justified to convert when the people of a religion feel that they are being discriminated against.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *

Once again, This discussion is not about Why people convert to other religions. It is about is it okay to have such conversions and/or should there be a law against such conversions.
[/QUOTE]

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dalits even among mulims remain dalits not equal to asharafs or syeds
so it is a myth

Quota for Dalit Muslims demanded

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I am a firm believer in freedom of choice. Whether you are a dalit or billionaire, the freedom to choose what to wear, eat, pray to and marry is our god-given right.

If Hindus are discriminatory and yet don't want the poor to convert it's sheer hypocracy. What are they so scared of? That these poor people will find better human beings in islam or christianity? Tough! When you're that poor and desperate it's not religious philosophy that gets the loyalty but bread and respect.

It's even more ridiculous to claim that people with money have the advantage. So it's ok for coke to come and throw money around, trying to sell their poison, but not missionaries. Give me a break.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zaavia: *
I dont think that they should convert for the sake of money
[/QUOTE]

Why not ? It's not just money. They are poor, and if they are not given any help they will starve to death and in that situation If someone comes to them and offers them food and job .

Is religion more imortant that the life of a Human being ? More so, Is it fair to have a LAW against it ?

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A religious conversion which has a basis of money is certainly not ethical..Suppose I am of religion X and I convert a deprived soul by offering him money/kind etc..that person will neither understand the tenets nor he will fundamental beliefs....if some other person of religion y comes and offers him still more money he will gladly convert to that religion....IMHO religion is not a commodity which can be traded or purchased..

Coming to your basic question of whether a religion is more important than human's life...let me put it this way...if a downtrodden and poverty stricken person on the verge of starvation is offered riches of life but is asked to commit some crime in lieu of that...you might as well then say are ethics more important than human life? I guess not...

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
isn't it better for the person if that exploitation helps him in getting 'do waqt ki roti' and/or education for his children ?

How is it a blackmail ? As far as I know, A missionry doesn't force to convert, does it ?

[/QUOTE]

1) Absolutely - If the government is not capable to getting its act together and not help the poor find a productive occupation and if some religious institution has the resources to help that family - that's what is a religion all about! Imagine how classy it will be to just help and then the people if they feel like it, because they reciprocate the love shown them, embrace the faith. I am not against anyone converting voluntarily.

2) The blackmail I refer is to that practiced by some community leader who goes to political or religious leaders and make deals

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *

Why not ? It's not just money. They are poor, and if they are not given any help they will starve to death and in that situation If someone comes to them and offers them food and job .

Is religion more imortant that the life of a Human being ? More so, Is it fair to have a LAW against it ?
[/QUOTE]

god does want bribing people to attract followers or get "elected"
as supreme being.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
god does want bribing people to attract followers or get "elected"
as supreme being.
[/QUOTE]

Speaking of that, does God want its people to Starve to death, Does god even care which religion you follow ?