Re: Religion this week: Q & A about Hinduism
Niara = jis ki koi misl na ho = Anokha / Be-misaal
Nir-gun = jis ke gun (sifaat) bayan na ki ja sake
Re: Religion this week: Q & A about Hinduism
thanks! Niara I know is used in Urdu also, I was not familiar with Nirgun. that is nice!
Re: Religion this week: Q & A about Hinduism
Bhagvagita: Ch. 7, V. 19 to 23… ‘All those who worship demi gods, all those do idol worship, they are materialistic people’
Yajurveda: Ch. No. 32, V. No. 3…‘Natasya Pratima Asti’… ‘Of that God, no image can be made’.*
Yajurveda, Ch. No. 40, V. No. 8 says… ‘God is image less, and body less – He has got no form, He has got no body’
*Yajurveda: Ch. No. 40, V. No. 9 …“Andhatma pravishanti ye assambhuti mupaste”..All those who worshipping the Asumbhuti, are in darkness’. Asumbhuti means “Created Things”
Rigveda: in Vol. No. 8, Ch. No. 1, V. No. 1…“Ma Chidanyadvi Shansata”…‘All praises are due to Him alone’ . This is the same as Quranic verse 1:1.
Regveda: Vol. 6, Ch. No. 45, V. No. 16…" There is only one God… Worship Him alone"
The truth is God has sent His truth message of guidance and love and means of worshipping to all of man kind during all eras in the form or thousands of messengers, and prophets with their own books and scriptures which were slowly corrupted. The final messenger, Prophet Muhammed had one mission, re-instate and re-clarify the same message and confirm all previous prophets and messengers and revelations. He didn’t bring anything new. He was to be the final messenger and the Book Quran was to be the final book preserved for all times by God Himself to protect from any changes.
Re: Religion this week: Q & A about Hinduism
Glad you asked these questions and I will try the best of my limited knowledge to answer. To understand the answers you need to first comprehend two important basic ideas fundamental to Vedic and Dharmic concepts:
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The Hindu understanding of nature includes God and several levels of demigods. The demigods all have specific attributes and purposes whereas the God (Paramathma) is nirguna (of no attributes). Please read my first post on this subject in this thread.
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Vedas are supposed to be learnt orally from a Guru - they cannot be simply read and understood. That is the mistake I suspect you have made (or whoever you quoted from made).
I will explain this by taking your reference to Srimadh Bhagvad Gita -
Your reference to Srimadh Bhagvat Gita, Chapter 7, V 20:
Chapter 7 deals with ‘Knowledge of the ultimate Truth’ – In verses 20 to 22, Bhagvan actually explains how to do demi-God worship (no reference to idols, so I don’t know why you chose to quote this, but anyway, hope this sheds some light on you) as follows:
7.20: Those deprived of discrimination by various desires impelled by their particular nature worship the lesser demigods adapting to the applicable rites and rituals
7.21: Whichever demigod a particular devotee desires with faith to worship, I surely sustain firmly that faith to him.
7.22: Endowed with that firm faith the devotee executes worship of this demigod and sanctioned by Me solely obtains that which he desired from that demigod.
Do you see the difference here? You made several mistakes here!
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you looked at 7.20 and misread demigods as idols. These are different. Agni for example is a very highly placed demigod; a statue of Agni is the idol. People worship Agni not the statue of Agni
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You failed to see where Bhagvan was leading you - take a look at 7.21: He says He will give you the necessary faith to worship the demigod of your choice (of your desire) - for example, if you want to move water from place to place, use a pitcher, NOT a bag. But if you want to carry books, use a bag, not a pitcher. The Bhagvan says He will give you that knowledge to know which carrier for which desire
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And He tells you the impact in 7.22; and specifically tells you that each demigod worship is different and the so are the results but ALL of that is as sanctioned by Him.
In all the other references in your question, the mistakes or misreads you are committing are very similar.
Re: Religion this week: Q & A about Hinduism
I guess I need a prerequisite to your pre-requisite. I don’t understand the difference between your definition of demigod and idols, or “created things”. Because it seems in your clarification, that God Himself says worship other than me - a demigod. God says " I cannot fulfill your desire, something else can,that is, a demigod has more than what I can offer you"
effectively, isn’t it?
Re: Religion this week: Q & A about Hinduism
no - try this.
- every soul has to go through Samsara (progression of life through the karmic cycle)
- at different stages in this journey your desires will be different, therefore your actions to attain such differing outcomes; these are of material nature
- the various demigods will help you with the various actions to attain such varying outcomes
- each such action has outcome
- when you desires are appropriate and the actions you undertake to satiate them are appropriate, then you will be performing your duty and that will progress your soul
- when your desire inappropriate for your current state you will be failing your duty and there will be no progression; and there could actually be regression if such inappropriate desire or action led to harm
- when your desire is inappropriate but your action leads to good outcome, there is conditional (mutated?) progress
- The demigods provide the methods for such actions - IOW they deal with the material desires and associated actions
- When your desire is for the Ultimate Truth, that is when you have transcended material desire, then it becomes possible to address God
The demigods, as described in 7.22 above are empowered Solely by God’s sanction
Re: Religion this week: Q & A about Hinduism
Thanks for the explanation. I understand better about what the scripture interpretation suggests. But, as a pure monotheist and a student of philosophy, I can see how to just drink this explanation like a potion or a medicine or question and ponder its legitimacy before i am satisfied. So I shall beg you to clarify:
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The idea of a demigod - a half god, half man. Now by the definition of both “man” and “God” there cannot be any such thing as half and still be referred to as “man” or “God”.
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I will go back to my question about God saying He is One, there is darkness in worship other than Him (“Andhatma pravishanti ye assambhuti mupaste”), then turn around a says but I have commissioned other than me to seek divine guidance from. They are not me but “something like me” (demigods). Then turns around and also says: “*Ma Chidanyadvi Shansata” , “Natasya Pratima Asti"All praise belongs to him alone”, “and none can be in the image of God”. *The two contradictions a glaring apparent and cannot be from the same source. It must take an convoluted effort to stich things up just to bridge the gap in two ideologies.
sorry, I mean no offense. just trying to learn
Re: Religion this week: Q & A about Hinduism
Contrary to prevailing misconceptions, Hindus all worship one Supreme Being, though by different names. This is because the peoples of India with different languages and cultures have understood the one God in their own distinct way. Through history there arose four principal Hindu denominations—Saivism, Shaktism, Vaishnavism and Smartism. For Sai-vites, God is Siva. For Shaktas, Goddess Shakti is supreme. For Vaishnavites, Lord Vishnu is God. For Smartas—who see all Deities as reflections of the One God—the choice of Deity is left to the devotee. This liberal Smarta perspective is well known, but it is not the prevailing Hindu view. Due to this diversity, Hindus are profoundly tolerant of other religions, respecting the fact that each has its own pathway to the one God.
One of the unique understandings in Hinduism is that God is not far away, living in a remote heaven, but is inside each and every soul, in the heart and consciousness, waiting to be discovered. This knowing that God is always with us gives us hope and courage. Knowing the One Great God in this intimate and experiential way is the goal of Hindu spirituality.
Re: Religion this week: Q & A about Hinduism
No offense at all - I am learning as well in the process [as an aside - a very revered Maharishi wanted to master the Vedas completely; through penance he requested and acquired three lifetimes to do. Towards the end of the third, Indra (one of the demi Gods) happened to visit him. The Maharishi asked Indra for another lifetime, because he had not been able to accomplish mastery of the Vedas. Indra led him to face a mountain and stopped him at a distance from it; then walked to and brought three fistfuls of sand from the mountains. The Maharishi understood that a fourth fistful won’t accomplish much more in bringing the mountain closer].
On your pt 1> why? What is the definition of God you are referring to? and what reasoning are you using to connect that definition to the conclusion that it cannot be? Finally, If there can be two distinct definitions called God and Man, can’t there be a third one called demigods? If there can only be two definitions God and Man, where would other lifeforms such as animals figure in?
On your pt 2> your quote of Yajur Veda is something very common on the internet, made famous by voices such as Zakir Naik. Again the problem arises from not seeking a Guru to learn the Vedas but rather rely on ones’ own ability to comprehend written material as if it is a story book! It is like thinking you have become a doctor by just reading the prescribed text for MBBS/MD! You cannot even become a CA/CPA by just reading but somehow people think they can understand the Ultimate Truth by reading alone!
I already demonstrated the mistakes of such approach through the example of the Bhagvat Gita reference you had asked about. Similarly (but as briefly as I can and to the limits of my understanding) will offer following on your Yajur Veda reference:
Probbaly due to the popularity of Zakir Naik, his mistakes also get widely propogated amongst Muslims and even amongs Hindus. This is one such case. Somebody told him Sambuthi means created and therefore asambuthi means natural. In reality this verse / mantra you have referenced has NOTHING to do with created or manmade.
Yajur Veda, Chapter 40:
In these, God is imploring us to understand not just Creation but also Destruction. The outcome of worship (=understanding and action) of Asambuthi leads us to conquer death and the worship (=understanding and action) Sambhuthi leads to immortality (= Ultimate Truth). (Again refer my earlier posts and the progression of souls towards Ultimate Truth). Both are required - so God says:
9: Don’t worship only sambuthi or asambuthi
10: The outcome effects of sambuthi and asambuthi are different
11: Hence worship (=understand and act upon) both
The actual mantras here for your reference.
Mantra 9: **अन्धं तमः प्रविशन्ति येसंभूतीमुपसते |
ततो भूय ऽ इव ते तमो य ऽ उ संभुत्याः रताः ||
**Mantra 10:**अन्य देवाहुः सम्भवादन्यदाहुरसम्भावात् |
**इति शुश्रुम धीराणां ये नस्तद्विचचक्षिरे ||
Mantra 11:संभूतिं च विनाशं च यस्त द्वेदोभय सह | ****
विनाशेन मृत्युं तीर्त्वा संभूत्यामृतमश्नुते ||
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Those people enter into darkness, who worships only “Asambhuti”, and those too enters into darkness who worship only “Sambhuti”;**We have heard from that Devata, who said the above (40:9) to us, that the effect of worshiping the “Sambhuti” has a different effect then worshiping the “Asambhuti”.; Hence know the art of “Sambhuti” as well as the “Vinash”. With worshiping the art of Vinash, you can win over the death, and by worshiping the art of Sambhuti you can become immortal.
Hope this helps
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Re: Religion this week: Q & A about Hinduism
Peace Samir and Bigda
Interesting conversation. It is true that in order to understand a scripture properly one needs to study with a teacher of it. However, it is also possible to read a scripture in line with internal consistency - a critical reading; And through a Muslim lens the Hindu scriptures tend to say different things at different times. Zakir Naik’s approach is to bring up only those verses that resemble Monotheistic language, however there are others that oppose this too. If we fairly say what the Hindu scriptures detail to us is a lot of confusing ideas that may not gel well together from an outsiders point of view. That does not mean the Hindu scholars cannot make sense of it for their own needs.
The argument is that perhaps the Hindu scriptures were read in a monotheistic way many moons ago … and that is the most we can say …
Some definitions from a Muslim point of view are important because convincing us of terms will be next to impossible if these ideas are not understood.
First of all to assert ‘form’ of any kind on God is a misunderstanding of the nature of God. The Islamic concept of God requires us to reject anything physical being God or God like - in the sense that it is deserving of worship. For us worship belongs only to God alone, whereas praise and honouring and saluting can be given to other creatures and especially those who are in positions above us …
In Islam there is no problem with creation becoming immortal so long as the agency of immortality comes from the Divine Source … and not self-generated by the entity itself and certainly it is not something we believe can manifest without agency. Natural laws that we observe for example gravitation - are not inherent in things - but are ordained by God all the time and if that ordainment is lifted at any time then those things cease having any such characteristics or cease to exist entirely.
Re: Religion this week: Q & A about Hinduism
@psyah - just two quick clarifications
. God in Vedic (Hinduism) is nirguna (=not attributable)/ Giving form is obviously not possible. There is however there is no prohibition for someone to do it - in fact Hinduism does not prescribe or prohibit anything in terms of requirements, rites and rituals. Idols, rites, demigods, rituals are all for mankind’s better understanding, comprehension of themselves and the divine creation.
. So then what are all those idols in temple and homes and under trees that Hindus go around worshipping? They are Gods and demigods all emanating from the One - the Purusha or the Hiranyagarba …People find it easier to focus their minds on matters relevant to their current dharma, via these vigrahas. Some vigrahas are representative (eg the eternal dance of Siva), some vigrahas are symbolic (eg the navagrahas), some are iconic (eg the saligramas), some are consecrated (in temple garbahrahas), some are simple endearment (eg baby Krishna)…
. The immortality referred to in my explanation of that particular Yajur Veda mantra is not somebody or something becoming immortal - it is to do with another the concept of amrthm (which is the actual word used in the mantra) which if I start on now will take a few days, so will pause at this point.