Re: Religion or Science
True religion is the word of God and Science is the act of God. There can not be a conflict between the word of God and His act. Any apparent conflict is man made.
As to the quetion whether science can be a religion in itself, the answer is no.
Science concerns itself in explaining natural phenomnon, it has nothing to say about morality. All the moral values in society are present because of one religion or another.
Re: Religion or Science
Islam offers more than just mere hope to the hopeless; it mantain justice...something the conventional world fails to keep up. In the "fittest shall survive" world many get run over and get to suffer because they couldn't keep up. Being slow is not a crime, hence they shouldn't suffer cause of it...but this still do neverthless. This world is far from being perfect, for it to be The Reality...it should have been perfect but its not. Hence some other world must exist which is perfect, where justice is served.
Science has given us a lot, but its Islam that teaches us how to keep the evils, that are produced as a result of science, on a minimum. The world tends to disregard and ignore the evils that are created in the society due to the so called 'democracy', capitalism and unchecked scientific research. Capitalism for example, increases financial class difference which in turn leads to the city divided into ghettos and posh areas...and then we see crimes emerging, which is a hallmark of most of the big cities in the world today.
Muslim nations have a much greater class divide that the west my friend. And the reason their crime rate is lower is because of draconian law enforcement institutions... has nothing to do with capitalism, everything to do with cutting off peoples hands if they steal.
It's not Islam that reduces crime rates, secular hardcore dictators have very low crime rates as well, and religious states without an authoritarian central government have high crime rates. (ie; secular China, and Islamic Uzbekhistan).
It's an authoritian central government with no civil rights that creates low crime rates. Your whole example of capitalism giving birth to high crime rates is flawed and incorrect.
Re: Religion or Science
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like I said in my previous post there can not be a conflict between the act of God and His word. It is true that science can guide ppl to truth. That's the reason Qura'n tells the believers to study the universe and see God's miracles.
I saw this documentry on PBS about Newton. They said, in his personal diaries, Newton rejected the idea of trinity in Christianity even though he was a devout Chrintian. Just by studying nature he was able to conclude that trinity is not possible.
Re: Religion or Science
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
If u mean who said these words, i believe it was Eienstein. on a second thought it could have been Newton, but i think i have read this quote referenced to Eienstein.
Re: Religion or Science
Don't blame science or religion...both are still obscure to man...so blame man!
Re: Religion or Science
Exactly and I hope einstein was a rational thinker and an intelligent man.
Re: Religion or Science
Ever since the beginning of human consciousness, we have tried to explain the way things are. One of our big advantages as a species is our curiosity about the world around us. This is a trait that has brought us to where we are now. This need to explain nature, and the world, and life in general, is what led to all of the millions of "religions" and to modern science. In past times, humans had less knowledge of reality; natural laws, physics, biology, etc etc.., and this created a need to explain things by way of some sort of supernatural means, a god, an aura, a legend, a creation story, spirits, and afterlives. However, as humans have grown throughout the ages, we have slowly built up all of the knowledge that we have congrued. WE have now developed a real and unbiased way to explain things. This is science. Math, which at it's heart is unbiased, cold and real, is the means that backs up all scientific knowledge and fact.
Even with this ability, the old ways still linger with the people. And, it is understandable. Habits, beleifs and cultural standby's don't exactly go away overnight. However, as time continues to go, our collective beleifs will evolve, and eventually, as the knowledge of science increases and the newness of terms like "evolution" wear off people will slowly grow to see the truth.
Personally, I'd recommend a recently published book, "Why Darwin Matters, the case against intelligent design," by Michael Shermer. It's about 185 pages long. He lays out and answers some of the more common arguments of people that don't accept evolution.
Re: Religion or Science
It's not Islam that reduces crime rates, secular hardcore dictators have very low crime rates as well, and religious states without an authoritarian central government have high crime rates. (ie; secular China, and Islamic Uzbekhistan).
It's an authoritian central government with no civil rights that creates low crime rates. Your whole example of capitalism giving birth to high crime rates is flawed and incorrect.
I think you should go read my earlier post again...You seriously didn't get what i was trying to say. Of course capitalism has nothing to do with lower crime rates; it actually produces the opposite effect.
And yes...Islamic laws are harsh, but they do the job. What's the harm in that..much better than your societies, where you got all types of freaks and sickos on the lose. You dont even feel safe to send your child to a local convenient store.
Calling Islamic Law, Draconian in nature only shows how naive you are. If you'd look around in places where the Islamic system was completely installed..you'd find that the crime rate in those places dropped virtually to zero.
And yes, states run by secular hardcore dictators would have comparitively low crime rates than what a capitalistic society like America has..but that doesn't prove anything.
Re: Religion or Science
thanks for the link to a great book, very nice post :k:
Shweetdreams:hug: we have a lot in common in our beliefs
Re: Religion or Science
FYI: Not arguing if Quran is right or wrong, but "Science of Proving" says you cannot have a fact happened and then observe that it is perdicted in the any other text. If it is predicted in a text - then it must be realized before the event take place. For example, if you perdict exactly when world war 3 will happen (if God Forbid it will happen), fate of a civilization that hasn't taken place etc from Quran - then Quran will have the credit of "perdicting".
P.S: Did you intend to put this verse ?
Surah Al-Imran [3:55]:
:55 Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ
Re: Religion or Science
P.S: Did you intend to put this verse ?*** Right***
Surah Al-Imran [3:55]: :55 Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ
Again this is open to interpretation, but the literal meaning is pretty straight forward"In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ"
Re: Religion or Science
islam zindabad.
Re: Religion or Science
and confused dumbos, wake up..
Re: Religion or Science
But the facts are that science (or rather, 'progress'...but for the sake of this discussion, what is the difference?) is at the root of all modern evils...live with it, I suppose...
Re: Religion or Science
Has it? It's a far way from mere curiosity (bordering on apathy, at least if we examine the attitudes of those living in rural areas of the developing world) to an institutionalized, dedicated study of natural phenomena.
I think this whole religion as a protoscience thing is way overblown. Probably 1% of religion is actually dedicated to explaining the world...
Sharabi I think has hit the nail on the head...this whole Science vs religion crap has it's origin in Christian Europe, where the naturalist aristocracy had to fight the Church for, in essence, the right to theorize about their surroundings in non-approved ways.
The only time when I see something similar in the Islamic world is when science is used as a club against religion...not quite the same.
It is, in my opinion, somewhat irrelevant. What is more pressing is why have we been so apathetic towards science for so long? Why are we so behind in developing these institutions? Post-industrial revolution, there really is no excuse to neglect this...
Typical knee jerk reaction is simply to point to the "mullahs"...but the fact is...they have very little input or control over the government-run educational institutions. We may fault them for the madrassah's...but then, that hardly explains the problem.
Looking at post-Industrial Europe, however, can shed some light. What is required is a patronage system, and a symbiotic relationship between industry and higher institutions of learning. But first, a knowledge transfer has to take place...
Re: Religion or Science
I dunno...sounds too black and white. If you don't think there are an army of "rationalist" scientists working for the American military/industrial complex, you're simply ignoring a very dark and bleak aspect of what IS the state of science, or at least those who are (in over general terms) 'scientists'.
Heck, we don't even have to pick on Americans. The holocaust was not a spontaneous hate fest...it was a very coldly calculated and engineered feat, which invoked the scientific community to get the job done.
I can go on, and on...but the fact is, there is no particular mode of thought that makes bad people any better...perhaps just more efficient or effective at being bad.
There's a serious dark side to science, but I think we're all too materialistic to see it.
Re: Religion or Science
^
You misunderstood like most of the guppies. It is not about Religion or Science rather the followers. Those scientists that you are talking about did not discover those chemicals and plans, they misused it, knowledge whether it is about Religion or Science can be misinterpreted for personal means to harm people.
The point I am trying to make is that right now in the world scientists are making the positive difference whereas the followers of Religion are nothing but obstacle to prosperity and progress, a clear assessment to their predecessors.
Re: Religion or Science
Typical knee jerk reaction is simply to point to the "mullahs"...but the fact is...they have very little input or control over the government-run educational institutions. We may fault them for the madrassah's...but then, that hardly explains the problem.
The christian missionaries start up schools but they dont insist that their way of life is the ultimate and scientific learning is encouraged. Thats far from truth in madrasaas, i suppose.:)
Re: Religion or Science
a point in time comes, in bio medical ethics, where all science drops flat on its face, and reasoning based on faith, has to be held on to, in case of a birth of a disable child or a end-of-life patient on life support .
a point in time comes, when you can have all the technology that you may, to create intelligent and engineered crops or even human babies, and you have to look at religion for the ethics of the unnatural pursuits of creating lives, of playing on the Maker.
a point in times comes, when you are lonely, sad and upset, and no scientific reasoning helps, no electronic device soothes, but a prayer or a warm hug by another human being, & yet you think hope, faith (religion) has little or no place in our lives?
granted that it is absolutely essential to be inquisitive, it is our nature to be that way, & to have the zeal for scientific inquiry, for constant development and innovation in the use of tools which humans have intelligently created.
but,
science will replace faith?
how superficial,& pretentious is it?
where is your sense of balance in this equation of
life + science - religion = reasoning?
how?
dushi