Religion - Logic or Faith

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Peace diwana

To believe in something does not make it true nor does it mean that a truth does not require belief when we accept it. The belief required for 1 +1 = 2 is small, because we are accustomed to this and we can use this and we can reason with this. However, for a young child getting to understand 1 + 1 = 2 is a moment of realisation for them. They accept the statement and thus it forms part of their belief system.

I can say more fundamentally that God exists and that is truth regardless of whether we believe in it or not God does exist, but because we cannot test this as readily as 1 +1 = 2 it becomes something that requires more effort to put it into our belief system.

To believe simply means to accept it.

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People taking interest in this topic might be interested in the following:

Tafseer Al-Mizan

Guest of the Week - Kinzz
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AOA:

Logic: Branch of philosophy that analyse and conclude of something be right or wrong
Philosophy: Root/mother of logic or from a different angle investigation of logic to approve or disapprove

Philosopher: one who does/implement logic/philosophy with knowledge of set of rules or from a different angle " a blind guy looking for a black cat, in a dark black room, which is not there"

Now we can also say that philosopher:
1) may approve or disapprove ------ beleive or reject
2) may be blind or seer ------ weak/ill-equiped or knowlegable/equiped
3) may be biased or unbiased ----- planed to arrive at certain conclusion or insearch of fact(s)
4) logic is needed or not ------ wasting energy/time or real issues
and so on

Thus we will always have variety of openions on each and every issue including logic, philosophy, science and religion. We may arrive at different conclusions as every one has got unique angle, level of knowledge, society, growth and so on. But the important things are:

1) inner satisfaction ( what ever way it may come ---just beleif or logical beleif ( logic preffered)
2) eager to learn, accept and grow (follow not/less blindly

Quran has invited for both:
1) beleive
2) beleive thru logic/investigation

Off course " Jahil or Aalim baraber nahee" and i am very clear that both logic and beleif can live together and strenghten each other. For me religion comes thru logic not because of my parents

Both beleif and logic are based on mutual agreements among the followers of ligic or beleif regarding unit(s) of measurement, standards, and so on

Sorry for hard feelings and mistakes as I am both " Zero and Khan"

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Peace psyah.

Example of 1+1=2 is not at all equivalent to believing on presence of God or many other religious beliefs. I do agree with many notions in your posts but disagree with giving this example.

A simple logic can make even a child to understand and grasp the concept of 1 + 1 =2 but all the LOGIC in the world cannot make someone believe on certain religious matters even to an adult including presence of God. These matters will always be a matter of FAITH.

I am sure you are aware of many many things in religion which cannot be explained by any logic and to so many, the logic once there in the past no longer apply today but we still have to believe on them.

Why not accept that religion does not require mind to be used in certain matters or our mind just is not able to explain them.

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Re: Religion - Logic or Faith

Peace brother diwana

Please step back for a moment and try to understand what it is I am saying. From the discussion above it is clear you have not disagreed with me, but rather you still have not understood me.

I am going to try explaining one more time:

When people 'accept' a concept it is called 'belief' now forget for a moment what you think I mean by the word 'belief' or 'faith' I am using a linguistic explanation.

My claim is that no matter how you have arrived at your conclusions belief of a matter is essential in order for somebody to accept the truth it claims to hold.

When somebody applies logic for something as simple as 1 + 1 = 2 in order for somebody to 'accept' the truth in this statement they need to believe that it is true.

Now in the matter of religion some things are logical but many things are not, we use other ways to 'accept' the truth in those 'religious concepts' for example we will use our 'feeling of inclination' we will use 'analogy' we will use other philosophic constructs to convince ourselves to 'accept' the truth those concepts claim to hold. When we accept them we are said to be in 'belief' of them.

The problem with modern language is that it has removed the meaning behind the word 'belief' and it has assoiciated it to mean 'something we believe in without proof' but this is not the case. Something we believe in without proof is more accurately called 'blind belief' ... also the modern language has played games with the word 'fact' because today people believe a 'fact' does not require belief in order to be understood and used, but this is a fallacy. True enough a 'fact' is true even without anyone to think over it is still a 'fact' however, in order to make use of it such as in the case of 1 +1 = 2 we 'humans' need to have at some stage accepted the truth in this concept. So arguably to 'know' something means that we have 'believed in it based on objective testable proof' ...

Okay now to summarise:

'Know' = to believe in something with objective evidence
'blind belief' = to believe in something without any evidence
'e'maan' = the Islamic belief which has been reasoned out and may contain some 'knowns' but will not contain any 'blind beliefs'.

All of these are types of 'belief' and that is what I am saying here. You know that 1 + 1 = 2 ... that is a belief ... do you understand me now?

Zarb taqseem, Jama Tafreeq
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Re: Religion - Logic or Faith

Everything that Quran says is soooo right and every word is word of god- No wonder muslim world is happy and contetnt. Why other religions can't get this perfect?

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....and where on this world or universe this happen?

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Successful gulf countries, Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey, Sudan etc. etc.

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Peace Psyah!

I hear you clear.

It seems we are not too far from what we are saying.

But your statement below,

"In the same sense logic is objective and faith is a personal thing. However we all know that faith is necessary because without faith one cannot make use of logic nor can that person arrive at any conclusion and sense of conviction. Even the logical argument 1 + 1 = 2 is a logical statement but it is also a statement of faith. I believe that 1 plus 1 equals 2, and I can demonstrate that. However, I also can cite examples of things that are true that I cannot demonstrate, and that is what leads me to conclude that logic does not encompass all things that lead to the sense of conviction. "

…is what brought a rather lengthy discussion.

The part of your post above in bold needs attention.

Logic is free of requirement of faith. One can give logic to someone and thats it. Its up to the other person if that person really develops belief on the logic provided or not.

Same was the example you mentioned about 1+1=2.

No one needs to really believe on it. It just is. That is why we call mathemstics a mute language.

If there are two trees and someone tells a person there are two trees. Now if the person says no they are not, they are three. Fact remains that there are two trees. This is demonstrable and measurable data. What can one do about it? Logic seems to be the last tool available anyway…after that one might just use a hammer!!!:smash:

Now What first post asked and assumed is the meaning of faith versus logic* as if faith is blinded *and thats what I also used.

You went on and made it as if belief and blinded belief are separate. Thats Ok but thats not what was being asked in my humble understanding.

What was asked was that if the relgion is a belief (blinded) or logic (educated belief).

A belief in general sense does not require logic (you call it blind belief) and if logic is provided then belief gets stronger (educated belief).

On the other hand logic does not require belief. It just is. Only one Example :The measurable and demonstrable data.

Coming to the topic in this background:

There is absolutely no logic in many many religious matters no matter how much one tries and religion does not ask or expect people to go around and find logic on these matters.
It just asks people to believe (blindly as you might put it) on these matters, bypassing all logical sense.:slight_smile:

(I just changed part of the sentence redfor even better understanding)

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I find that faith can be confirmed by logic. Many examples in the Quran make sense just by looking at the natural world around you, so you are using logic. They both go hand-in-hand to a certain extent. The Quran says that humans are to be tested.....this blind faith in the unseen is an example of a test, the ultimate test.

Can you believe in the existence of that which is not perceived by your senses.....for example, God? The Quran encourages us to look at the earth and heavens. The merging of day into night, the changing of seasons, the rotation of the earth and its being the only known planet (so far) that can support life, it's perfect location relative to the sun allowing life to survive, every cell in your body knowing its proper function...............This world obviously has a complex design......and that in itself points to a Designer. Perhaps we are to use these numerous very PERCEIVABLE examples around us........to contemplate on the existence of God, the unseen.

There are many things that cannot be perceived, but exist. We can't see atoms.....and some experts think we still can't see them well enough even through complex instruments......yet it is believed that everything in matter is composed of them. Throughout history there were many things that couldn't be perceived and then gradually over the years with the advancement of technology they became evident (tv, radio, the complexities of light, sound, electromagnetic waves, etc). So, just because something isn't perceivable doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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Sudan :hehe: you got to be kidding me.

Yes turkey is acceptable but it will offend your belief coz their system is based on secularism.

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Peace diwana

You are getting closer but I can see you still have not understood me.

1 + 1 = 2

It is a fact - we both agree
It is a logical statement - we both agree
We both accept the truth in this statement - this means we both believe it is true.

If I had written 1 + 1 = 3 this is both illogical and we both do not accept the said truth claim in the statement and rebound it back as unacceptable i.e. we do not believe it is true.

Logic is a tool that we use to make us believe in things … sometimes what is logical may not be true - do you know this?

My second point is that logic is not the only way to obtain proof for a belief, there are other ways to obtain proof for belief that are rejected by puritans of logic.

The thing I say to puritan logicians is that why is 1 + 1 = 2? the fundamental answer they give is “that it simply is” … in other words they believe it, and can work with it and demonstrate it to others, but no matter how absurd it sounds to you in order for anyone to USE logic you have to believe it works in the first place.

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AOA
Science without religion is lame and Religion without science is blind.

Thus I would like to have both.

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Peace Psyah!

I am exactly where I was from the beginning. I may be becoming more clear in my explainations. The word should have been we both 'know' its true.

'Believe' word has a possibility of not believing. Just like when you are in court you answer mostly I believe I saw this man doing such action.

But once you say I know I saw this man. Everyone understands you know you are sure about the statement based on your actual eyesight and positive identification.

Anyhow,
In order to shorten my response and to try answering the question posed here in this thread, I would just say if you do not have any issue with what I said below then we both have actually answered the question posed.

Feel free to correct it or add.

There is absolutely no logic in many many religious matters no matter how much one tries and religion does not ask or expect people to go around and find logic on these matters.
It just asks people to believe (blindly as you might put it) on these matters, bypassing all logical sense.

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Re: Religion - Logic or Faith

As mentioned in the Quran, Allah (swt) makes Religion easy (to understand) for whomever HE wishes. Otherwise there are people whose heart, mouth and ears are sealed due to which they can't even understand very basic logical truth related to Islam.

In my personal opinion (which can be wrong) Allah (Swt) blesses those people with understanding of logic in Islam who possess:

"sincerity with oneself and others. Selfless, unbiased and humble search for the truth"

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Peace diwana

Religion does not require us to believe blindly, well Islam definitely does not. It appeals to 'people of understanding' and tells us to 'ponder over creation' ...

We are at the mercy of the 'schools of thought' which apply sciences to derive and extrude injunctions and legislation.

Religion informs us to check and see if in the areas we can fathom that there is consistency and fitness and when we see this we are expected to trust the whole religion per se i.e. the unprovable things based on the truth reconciled from the provable things.

This is not blind belief it is reasoned belief though reasoned belief is not always logical it for sure is not blind.

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Peace Psyah;

I think I had expected the response.
You mentioned a term reasoned belief. That is logical way of believing. Reasoning and logic are not that different terms.

There is a whole list of religious teachings in all religions which deal with events and items not able to be explained by any logic or reasoning and human brain work.

I will provide a limited list here:

  • Presence of Jins -Parting of river by Moses (AS) -Birth of Issa (AS)
  • Many many miracles performed by various prophets -Qabr ka Azaab -Mairag event -Coming of a messiah or Imam Mehdi (AS) -Avoiding eating pork . (Please don't think I am for it) -Killing of a child by Khizr (AS) -Spending time inside a fish by the prophet (another miracle) -Presence of Jannat and Dosakh -Life after death etc.

..........The list goes on.

These religious matters are beyond any 'logic' and must be accepted as such to be a 'religious' person. No brain power or logic can refute or even prove them.

No one has seen many of these items, nor they can ever provide any logic to someone who is non-believer to make that person a believer.

Has anyone seen Jins? Is that not a 'blinded' faith on the book or part of the book?

One will resort to saying:

The reason we believe on these is either these are written in the scriptures or told by the prophets (AS) and we believe on these books and sayings of the prophets. (PBUT)

Answer: I think that is why Kalima is so important.

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Re: Religion - Logic or Faith

Peace diwana

The list of things that you have posted ALL have and can be reasoned. They may not be logical but they do have reason.

In fact Islam requires us to reason and not follow blindly ... The Qur'an condemns the people of the past who used to say that they just follow what their fathers used to do and it appeals to reason.

Logic can help us reach confirmation of our beliefs (here I mean it in the religious sense).

Furthermore after saying that there is no reason that we believe you have just stated two reasons why we believe. The Qur'an provides its own falsification tests which is that 'had it been from other than Allah (SWT) therein would be much discrepency" we have found that there is not a single enclosed contradiction in it. There are verses which go against others but as context makers and differing perspectives and abrogations but no contradictions. Even in the text it testifies to its own function of abrogation. This is proof as reason to believe in the Qur'an it is not logical proof... because in order for this method to be logical it needs to provide 100% conclusiveness in its statements or else they will be false logic. But nonetheless it is reason.

We are not allowed to believe blindly this is a condition for the people who are astray.

Example of blind belief:

'Then Moses was buried' so wrote Moses - this if believed is blind belief and it is false to assume that 'Moses' wrote it, because no one can write in past tense about ones own death.

Example of reasoned belief:

The Qur'an cannot be faulted therefore it is a strong candidate that it is from God, which means Muhammad (SAW) is a true Messenger and therefore when it says that Jesus (AS) is still alive we believe it.

Example of logic induced belief:

Allah (SWT) is a Divine Name that in the Arabic language is important because of the grammatical construct. Nothing can hold the word Allah in a position of possessing it. The Mudaf mudafilay construct cannot be applied for Allah as the position of possessed, this is because Allah the Name begins with the letters AL and these cannot be by rules of grammar definite for the possessed. The amazing thing is that this is linguistically accurate with the message it portrays as in the Qur'an it calls Allah the Encompasser. This beauty encourages my faith to be stronger.

Example of irrational rejection:

I can't believe in Islam because it has the answers to everything and that is spooky.

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Re: Religion - Logic or Faith

:salam:

Yaar my head is spinning. So much debate about the semantics of the word BELIEF. To me it is quite simple, BELIEF is the acceptance in the truth of something when you have not witnessed it yourself. If you are a witnessing party then I do not classify it as belief but rather KNOWLEDGE of whether it is true or not. Now whether it is a belief or knowledge, logic is not the only tool for ascertaining its truth or factuality.

Logical conclusions can only be derived from the acceptance of something as a fact or atleast distinctly quantifiable to the perception.

It depends on how a factual piece of evidence is percevied that makes it either a belief or knowledge. Feelings are not something that can be logically quantified yet we use them as a tool for achieving a sense of conviction about something which cannot be measureably perceived.

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Peace Psyah!

I would like you to provide reason ans explanation you may have for few of the religious teachings/items I listed.

I am not saying this because of any ill-intention.

Just going through the mind and looking for the reasons of believing in these items AFTER you become neutral. You will come to conclusion that reasons we believe on these is that we chose to or are told to accept the authenticity of Quran and what is told by the prophets (PBUT).

Your example of reasoned belief is itself telling us that one has to believe on red sentence fiirst to believe the green part.

Now what i am saying is that red part is blinded faith to begin with which comes from the heart and not from any logic or reason. There are sooooo many arabic scholars and religious professors who are Jews or Christians and they read Quran and 'understand' Quran better than any usual Muslim person.
They still do not believe Quran being word of God.

Why? I say their hearts are not with their minds. Thats all. Any logic or reason will not change their heart to accept islam.

That is why we call ourselves somehow lucky/blessed to have been born in muslim families and had early teachings. Otherwise who knows we might be talking about hinduism with same zeal and emotions.

In my humble opinion, religious matters are accepted by many of us blindly and not logically and logic is not possible, required or expected.

You used a middle term as reasoned belief, that, in your example itself is based on blind belief.

You are more than welcome to try any other example of reasoned belief.
Many will consider it as a circular argument as below:

  • I believe Quran is the word of God.

-Why?

-Because it says so.

Do you see what that means?

Universal truth: *All religious and non-religious doctrines require that the person removes himself from all logical boundaries to begin with. If you use 'logic' as your sole guide you might go stray or away from what you might be believing.:)
*
I just made this statement. Something to ponder.