Iqbal beleived that religious dogma can be fully explained on basis of logic and philosophy. Thats the point he tries to make in his book “Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam”.
Does religion limit logic? Does it encourage logic to its own good but limits it too?
What do you think is the basis of your beleif Logic or Faith?
Whats been the role of logic in religion?
Re: Religion - Logic or Faith
Among Muslims there have been 3 approaches to logic in religion.
Literalist View: Championed by Ibn Taimiyya. They say that its not required by a person to find a logical explanation for any religious doctrine or practice. He is just required to beleive as he/she has been told and follow whatever commandments he/she is given. They discourage explanations or "taweelaat". If Allah says he is on Arsh then He is on Arsh, how is thatpossible is neither relevant nor essential to know etc
Traditionalists View: They try to adhere to literalist view as much as possible but when logic and a doctrine become irreconilable, they will do "taweel". Championed by Ashuriites.
Modernists/Agnostics: Championed by Mutazilites and in later generation Quranites, they try to find a logical explanation for every religious doctrine or twist or conform it to make it in line with science and logic.
Re: Religion - Logic or Faith
Religion encourages logic, only to the extent, that supports its case.
It does not allow you to go all the way.
Re: Religion - Logic or Faith
Peace Iconoclast
Good topic ...
I find the explanation of DD to be somewhat helpful and accurate however, I don't think it is fair to Sh. Ibn Taymiyyah to label him the pioneer of literalism.
As for logic (reason) well it is only part of the equation of faith. Comparing Logic to Faith is like comparing apples to fruit. One can eat an apple, but to eat a fruit, is subject to which fruit the person is eating. You can say both have eaten a fruit but not necessarily both have eaten the apple. In the same sense logic is objective and faith is a personal thing. However we all know that faith is necessary because without faith one cannot make use of logic nor can that person arrive at any conclusion and sense of conviction. Even the logical argument 1 + 1 = 2 is a logical statement but it is also a statement of faith. I believe that 1 plus 1 equals 2, and I can demonstrate that. However, I also can cite examples of things that are true that I cannot demonstrate, and that is what leads me to conclude that logic does not encompass all things that lead to the sense of conviction.
I view it as a bridge that traverses the banks from unknown to known ... The first part of the bridge is sense, then it goes on to logic, then as it stretches the waters it soon is constituted by another faculty which is intuition, (though I cannot reach the otherside I can see it clearly) then the last part of the bridge becomes very thin and stops short of the other side there is a gap to jump across this gap is called the 'leap of faith' ...
My path to the side of 'known' from the 'unknown' is one that has made the 'leap of faith' so small that the surety of landing on the bank is very high. Those who contradict their senses, logic and intuition to conclude an issue are more likely to land in the water because their 'leap of faith' is that much greater.
I attest that there is no thing known without faith ... even something as simple as 1 + 1 ... and to be honest this explains why people believe in things like the Trinity and other matters, because we are not bound by logic when it comes to faith.
Re: Religion - Logic or Faith
In the very beginning the Quran states
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God;** Who believe in the Unseen**, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
These are the foundations of our beliefs and you can't logically reason with a lot of customs/rituals/practices that are part of our faith so i agree with what Robert has said above.
Religion encourages logic, only to the extent, that supports its case. It does not allow you to go all the way.
In the very beginning the Quran states
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God;** Who believe in the Unseen**, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
These are the foundations of our beliefs and you can't logically reason with a lot of customs/rituals/practices that are part of our faith so i agree with what Robert has said above.
Peace Robert and Enya
I would modify the statement by Robert and state:
Religion requires faith, which is the superset of logic. Logic being a tool that can take you so far, one will need to consult other forms of 'truth' finding 'tools' to ascertain 'truth' which is the purpose of faith. Logic is not something separate from faith, rather logic is just a tool. A computer can do logic, but it cannot be convinced of it. We can! We can also choose to employ discretion when logic is evaded or even contradicted.
Re: Religion - Logic or Faith
Coming back to the topic about dogma and its explanation ... philosophy ... yes it can explain it. Including logic philosophy contains something called metaphysics and other useful things like explanation by analogy and so on. In logic terms we cannot conclude that since x and y lead z that a and b must lead to z because a and b are similar to x and y. We will say undefined.
The Qur'an is filled with explanation by analogy such as in the case with the Attributes of God. As before though we understand things better like that it is not something constrained in the domain of logic.
Logic also breaks down when we talk about infinite or infinitesimal ... results are undefined
Logic also breaks down with circularity ... though circularity cannot prove anything logically it does help to define knowns ... those knowns that are not subject to logic such as existence.
I exist therefore I am or I am therefore I exist .... It does not matter I am and I exist no logic need by applied here.
As you can see faith is broader than logic.
Re: Religion - Logic or Faith
I might have discussed elsewhere a similar kind of question. In my humble opinion, there are many many situations described in religion and in religious books which are beyond anyone's logic. While logic may be used to perform religious acts, logic is not required to acquire faith on religion.
(In some regard I do agree with Robert except the way the sentence was written it seemed a sarcasm)
Religion just does not want people to go in length to use logic in matters which are beyond human. As per religion, it does not matter what God looks like or how heavens are surrounding earth etc. Religion just want people to accept and move on and do what is told for greater good as promised.
Iqbal beleived that religious dogma can be fully explained on basis of logic and philosophy. Thats the point he tries to make in his book "Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam".
Does religion limit logic? Does it encourage logic to its own good but limits it too?
I would say that logic has its place in deen. For instance it can be used to deduce the way to execute certain commandments. However, an invalid use of logic in deen is that if someone doesn't see the logic behind a certain commandment, then he leaves the commandment.
[quote]
What do you think is the basis of your beleif Logic or Faith?
Whats been the role of logic in religion?
[/quote]
Though I do find a lot of things logical in my belief, I'd still say that it's faith.
Re: Religion - Logic or Faith
I've skimmed through the posts. Some interesting stuff being said. I disagree with Enya about the meaning of "belief in the unseen." I'll talk about it later.
For now I'll just say that as humans, our nature is that we cannot believe in something unless we see it. that is why you can warn children to stay away from something as much you can but they will always try it. They need to see why its bad.
You can never truly believe in something if you haven't seen it. The quran talks about having NO doubt. None at all. You cannot have that kind of faith without anything to back it up. So you may think you believe in things you havent seen but you really dont.
Religion promotes blind faith, and discourages critical thinking.
Re: Religion - Logic or Faith
I agree with Kid A @ Religion promotes blind faith and discourages critical thinking. As per my post in another thread religion enjoys way too much immunity to criticism and so frankly I don't care if the religious out there are offended.
Back to the topic, Religion is definitely FAITH and not logic. Is that good or bad? There can be both effects. It can be used as a tool to impart good social values on our society etc etc. But as we've seen the social norms during the invention of the religion get embedded in the faith system and this hinders adaptation as time changes and so does our civil values and what should be the new social norms. It also has adverse effects on the real quest for answering the big questions. It is critical thinking and not religion that has gotten us so far in science, technology, medicine (the list is never ending) and in understanding our universe.
Do we (critical thinking, science) have all the answers? Nope, but that doesn't mean we will believe anything scribbled or propagated in ancient books without any real evidence.
I've skimmed through the posts. Some interesting stuff being said. I disagree with Enya about the meaning of "belief in the unseen." I'll talk about it later.
For now I'll just say that as humans, our nature is that we cannot believe in something unless we see it. that is why you can warn children to stay away from something as much you can but they will always try it. They need to see why its bad.
You can never truly believe in something if you haven't seen it. The quran talks about having NO doubt. None at all. You cannot have that kind of faith without anything to back it up. So you may think you believe in things you havent seen but you really dont. Religion promotes blind faith, and discourages critical thinking.
Peace Kid A
Your understanding of the Qur'an and contention against the statement quoted by Enya from the Qur'an is highly misplaced. The Qur'an does not require certainty in matters of faith, or else it would not be faith. Islam requires us to 'trust' matters and submit ourselves to them another term called 'certainty of sight' also mentioned in the Qur'an will be given to all people on the Day of Judgement to prove to those disblievers that what the Qur'an had during this life was worth trusting in.
If we get certainty of sight now then there is no use sending messengers and a book and nothing to distinguish from the believers and non-belivers that matter will be so compelling no one will be able to disagree.
On the flip side it is also not the position of faith especially in Islam to believe in things without critical evaluation and pondering. The tools we use to do this are not limited to senses, logic and the rational faculties but also we assess things by searching within our hearts and utilisation of philosophic constructs which as before mentioned are beyond logic and still make sense to us.
I agree with Kid A @ Religion promotes blind faith and discourages critical thinking. As per my post in another thread religion enjoys way too much immunity to criticism and so frankly I don't care if the religious out there are offended.
Back to the topic, Religion is definitely FAITH and not logic. Is that good or bad? There can be both effects. It can be used as a tool to impart good social values on our society etc etc. But as we've seen the social norms during the invention of the religion get embedded in the faith system and this hinders adaptation as time changes and so does our civil values and what should be the new social norms. It also has adverse effects on the real quest for answering the big questions. It is critical thinking and not religion that has gotten us so far in science, technology, medicine (the list is never ending) and in understanding our universe.
Do we (critical thinking, science) have all the answers? Nope, but that doesn't mean we will believe anything scribbled or propagated in ancient books without any real evidence.
Peace Magic Stick
Only the worst forms of religion promotes blind faith. There is an aspect of blind faith found in those people who disreagrd religion and in those who tote the theories of evolution as fact.
My point being that to be fair to religion we should argue with evidence, if religion does promote blind faith then justify it. If you believe Islam is like this justify it. You will find the contrary to your assertion.
In fact it is your 'belief' that critical thinking has gotten us to our "developed" stage and furthermore it is implied in your words that you 'believe' that our current irreligious technological trends are better for us. These are beliefs held by you and you thus form part of the crowd of those who have faith albeit the faith you have is in our ability to develop rather than our need to supplicate before God.
Peace Kid A
Your understanding of the Qur'an and contention against the statement quoted by Enya from the Qur'an is highly misplaced. The Qur'an does not require certainty in matters of faith, or else it would not be faith. Islam requires us to 'trust' matters and submit ourselves to them another term called 'certainty of sight' also mentioned in the Qur'an will be given to all people on the Day of Judgement to prove to those disblievers that what the Qur'an had during this life was worth trusting in.
If we get certainty of sight now then there is no use sending messengers and a book and nothing to distinguish from the believers and non-belivers that matter will be so compelling no one will be able to disagree.
On the flip side it is also not the position of faith especially in Islam to believe in things without critical evaluation and pondering. The tools we use to do this are not limited to senses, logic and the rational faculties but also we assess things by searching within our hearts and utilisation of philosophic constructs which as before mentioned are beyond logic and still make sense to us.
Peace Magic Stick
Only the worst forms of religion promotes blind faith. There is an aspect of blind faith found in those people who disreagrd religion and in those who tote the theories of evolution as fact.
My point being that to be fair to religion we should argue with evidence, if religion does promote blind faith then justify it. If you believe Islam is like this justify it. You will find the contrary to your assertion.
In fact it is your 'belief' that critical thinking has gotten us to our "developed" stage and furthermore it is implied in your words that you 'believe' that our current irreligious technological trends are better for us. These are beliefs held by you and you thus form part of the crowd of those who have faith albeit the faith you have is in our ability to develop rather than our need to supplicate before God.
The great Psyah goes around in circles again. It is certainly useless trying to engage in a dialogue with you, like banging your head against a wall!
I shall bang once more.
It is not my belief that critical thinking and scientific experiments have gotten us to this developed stage. That's a fact. We KNOW that science and critical thinking enabled inventions of computers, internet, TV and million other things. Your definition of being 'developed' can be having 4 wives, not shaving your face, sharia punishments etc, mine is obviously different. To me those are medieval backward social norms. To you they are past glory.
The following statement by you pretty much sums up the reason why I think it's useless to discuss these things with you:
"Islam requires us to 'trust' matters and submit ourselves to them another term called 'certainty of sight' also mentioned in the Qur'an will be given to all people on the Day of Judgement to prove to those disblievers that what the Qur'an had during this life was worth trusting in." <-- Requires? Trust? Submit? Day of Judgement? These are the things I have major issues with.
I can go on and on about whats wrong with these concepts and religion in general but there is only limited damage my head can take from the wall.
Religion encourages logic, only to the extent, that supports its case. It does not allow you to go all the way.
yep. thanks for writing it so perfectly.
The great Psyah goes around in circles again. It is certainly useless trying to engage in a dialogue with you, like banging your head against a wall!
I shall bang once more.
It is not my belief that critical thinking and scientific experiments have gotten us to this developed stage. That's a fact. We KNOW that science and critical thinking enabled inventions of computers, internet, TV and million other things. Your definition of being 'developed' can be having 4 wives, not shaving your face, sharia punishments etc, mine is obviously different. To me those are medieval backward social norms. To you they are past glory.
The following statement by you pretty much sums up the reason why I think it's useless to discuss these things with you:
"Islam requires us to 'trust' matters and submit ourselves to them another term called 'certainty of sight' also mentioned in the Qur'an will be given to all people on the Day of Judgement to prove to those disblievers that what the Qur'an had during this life was worth trusting in." <-- Requires? Trust? Submit? Day of Judgement? These are the things I have major issues with.
I can go on and on about whats wrong with these concepts and religion in general but there is only limited damage my head can take from the wall.
Peace Magic Stick
What you 'know' is a belief, but what you believe is not necessarily what you know to be true, it could be what you trust and what you feel to be so.
To know something is to simply have cognisance of it, but to believe it means that you agree with what you know about it. Some people in certain contexts will disregard what they know to be true replaced with what they trust from another source. Such as for example the belief that Jesus (AS) is still alive for the Muslims we trust this is so, even though in the normal case we do not apply this trust to everyday people.
You may have trouble with this but that is the difference between you and I. You say that you only believe in what is established as fact, but I think that is myopic on two levels:
1) You deceive yourself to what you think you know about and what little you really do know. You believe there air contains oxygen and nitrogen for example ... though you probably have not done the experiments yourself and even if you did you would have to trust the equipment and the tutor and so on.
2) Some things you have established as belief are not substantiated and are termed facts by you when in fact they are just beliefs just like us religious folk.
So it seems your bashing your head on the wall has done me no favours.
I believe that 1 plus 1 equals 2.
????
????
Peace infiniti
Knowledge of a matter is the substance but belief in it tells us how it is stored.
We may have knowledge about something but it may not necessarily mean that we agree with that knowledge. However, if we 'know' something we imply that we also believe in the truth of what we know, or what we know to be truth.
1 +1 = 2 is correct ... the part that is knowledge is the equation the part of this that is belief is the acceptance that this equation is correct - truth.
Therefore there is nothing that we can claim to 'know' without tacticly giving acceptance to it - i.e. to believe in it.
Re: Religion - Logic or Faith
^Nice way you explained but the question anyone would have that
1+1 =2 does not need anyone to believe on it. it just is. I guess thats why someone will question the word on I believe 1+1 =2.
Reminds me of a situation where in a library a guy came and start telling he passed exam in flying colors and the teacher gave him 103 out of 100 marks in mathematics.
Other guy sitting next to him said thats absurd. If this was a teacher of math he should have given you 100 not 103 marks. One cannot mess with mathematics like that.
Now for figuratively speaking one may say I love you 200 percent but in mathematics, 1+1 is 2 regardless someone believes it or not.
Peace.
Re: Religion - Logic or Faith
When Quran asks people to believe on unseen, it is not really asking people to use logic or brain. One cannot use any logic to define or prove/disprove presence of Jins for example. No one has seen them and no one can make people believe on them by any logic.
Many matter of religion will only remain as faith and never logic.
Re: Religion - Logic or Faith
We read Alif, Laam, Meem the first three letters.
Please use logic to explain why?
They just are and we read them, believe them to be from above and not even prophet (SAW) explained it.