Recruitment for Jihadi Organizations - Ideological Compatability or Economic Pressure

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Ohio Guy

People who pretend to be asleep cannot be awoken.

The simple matter is that if oppression causes jihad, then why are most jihadi groups formed in nations ruled by Muslim rulers? As I pointed out in my previous post, Pakistan itself has anywhere between 200,000 and 500,000 jihadis.

What the heck are they fighting for?

Jihadism - i.e the use of military training of religious youth is a tactic that grows out of bigotry and hatred.

The only root cause of jihadis is their own hatred of other faiths. Kashmir, Palestine and others are just excuses to slaughter innocents.

22

With all due respect irem, I only know anything about you by virtue of what you say and write. My comments are all and only related to what you say and write. If you, in real life, are something different than you say and write, then my comments about what you say and write don’t apply to you.

If you think you will be left unchallenged when you say and write that there would be less Islamic terrorism if only there were “more economic prosperity in Muslim countries” and then go on to blame the “west” for not providing it, you’re wrong. Country after country in the Islamic world could provide their populations with more economic prosperty if only they would spread the wealth from exploitation of their natural resources to the task at hand instead of sucking it into bottomless private bank accounts. And it should be the best and brightest of the intellectuals in these countries leading the campaign to reform them on behalf of the poor and downtrodden. It’s such a waste when the best and the brightest choose to feed themselves on the table scraps their leaders throw from the table and dutifully point their fingers west and repeat the accepted mantra like a bunch of Kool Aid kids.

PS. When I refer to to the “best and brightest” feeding on table scraps and Kool Aid Kids, please be aware that I am speaking in general terms and not directing my wrath personally at you. :flower1:

23

MV… hope it is towards me.

:jhanda:

24

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Irem,

We're oppressed so it's all OK, blah, blah, blah........

I may barf.

When I hear people here calling for the end of corruption, greater economic opportunity, quality education, criticising Arafat and holding other Jihad icons to account I'll be impressed.

When you come to realize that the jihadis have become the spokesmen for your religion, and that will bring nothing but MORE horror to Islam, then you may get it. But for the time being you have swallowed a load of crap hook line and sinker, and have learned to regurgitate it pretty well.
[/QUOTE]

Ohioguy,

Although it does not make everything okay, it is indeed true that we are oppressed.

When I hear people here calling for the end of corruption, greater economic opportunity, quality education, criticising Arafat and holding other Jihad icons to account I'll be impressed. <<<

Don't you think the oppressors need to take the first step by putting an end to, or in your case even admitting, their oppression?

When you come to realize that the jihadis have become the spokesmen for your religion, and that will bring nothing but MORE horror to Islam <<<

hmmm

firstly, alhamdulillah [Praise be to Allah/God], there's no horror to Islam :) Millions are converting to Islam, it is the fastest growing religion in the world, and that's because it is a beatiful religion that brings a message of peace.

secondly, who had made anyone a spokesman for our religion? in Islam there is no concept of spokesmen/spokeswomen for religion. every Muslim is at the same level. did we, the Muslim ummah, appoint anyone a spokesmen for our religion or did biased western media choose to create spokesmen for our religion?

25

MV, actually we are proud of having the most assbackward system on this planet. We have to sign a paper to get a passport that says who the last prophet is not. Can you beat that?

:jhanda:

26

When jihadis go all over the world beheading and slaughtering innocents, it becomes a global matter. :wink:

Defence Journal, Pakistan

In addition, World Bank, 2002 country report stated that as of 2002, 20% of Pakistani madrassahs teach military training.

Also, see:

500,000 militants in Pakistan, say Pak experts

The numbers of foreign students are in the thousands, a miniscule fraction of the total student population.

Then why are there so many Islamic nations with passports, borders and such? The Muslim ummah is a dream today. Can you go to Turkey or Mauritania without visa today? Can people from those nations come to Pakistan without passport?

BTW, do you know Pakistan has signed international agreements that make it clear that it will not send armed fighters to other nations?

Almost all Islamic nations are party to the same agreements.

27

hmmmm

at this point I have no response to all the above posts but this:

:frusty:

i’ll come back with intellectual arguments later :smiley: its time for fajar [morning] prayer here in Pakistan, i can hear the call for prayer, so i’m gona go n say my prayers :smiley:

was fun fighting with you OG, mv et al :smiley:

this place is a war zone :mudhosh: im glad i dont come here often

OG and mv [Talwar and Madhanee you guys i am sure know the truth anyway] we seriously need to talk through one day, or maybe you need to go and have a sincere talk with some Muslims in your neighborhood…but only IF you wana talk with an open mind, coz otherwise its pointless :slight_smile:

i’ll be back laterz, salams for now, peace :slight_smile:

28

Madhanee:

Do you want to be the best and brightest or just a Kool Aid Kid?

You are definitely the paradox that brings light to the darkness: you are fighting the anti-jihad jihad. I am proud to call you my brother. :hug:

29

Well, in my personal view, there are two different types of jihadi mentalities which we are looking at. They may seem similar but they are quite different.

First is where muslims are fighting for independence or land (examples being Palestine, Kashmir or Chechniya). There the mission is clear, the "enemy" is clear and we can all understand why they are fighting.

The other is a more nuanced jihad. This is the jihad being waged against other muslims, whether it be form of "revolt" against the unjust and incapable rulers (the jihadis include rulers of every Muslim country, including Pakistan) or against those who are deemed to be an insult to muslim faith (people belonging to other sects etc). In this jihad, the participants are first completely brain-washed that their version of Islam is not only the best, but is the ONLY version of Islam that is acceptable to Allah, and all other versions MUST be expunged from this land of Allah. An intense hatred for other sects is build by repeating exagerrated versions of "their" Islam to show how "their" core beliefs are insulting to "pure" Islam. And then "Amal Bil Marouf wa nahi Anil Munkir" (Spread good and stop evil) is recited to ensure that the jihadi fully understands that Allah wants him to take on these "demons" who are giving Islam a bad name and use all force to eliminate them.

I believe most of it is ideological. Money only plays a factor as an after-thought to compensate the martyrs' families. However, in recent times, the thinking is "End justifies all means" so some of these jihadi outfits now hire outside resources who may have nothing in common from an ideological standpoint, but they provide specialized services that fit with the ultimate aim - this includes contract killings and weapons' suppliers.

30

Well let's think about the "oppressors".

There are roughly 300 million Americans.

About 20% are elderly or children.

That leaves 240 million.

Of those, half are butt stupid.

That leaves 120 million.

Of those, 20% are living at or near the poverty line.

That leaves 96 million.

Of course there are nearly 6 Million Muslims.

That leaves 90 million.

Of the remaining, barely half have gone to college.

That leaves 45 Million.

There are around 5 million people who are disabled.

That leaves 40 million.

Of those 40 million, at least half had never heard of Pakistan, or knew a thing about Islam.

That leaves 20 million.

Now under the worst case scenario that would mean that the remaining 20 million must be engaging in virtually full time oppression to ruin the lives of over a BILLION Muslims! Thats over 150 Muslims that my wife, 16 year old daughter and I must be oppressing! Whew!

Do you realize the absurdity of all this oppression? There are over 250 million Pakistani's. Somehow there lives have been ruined by the US? They are not able to overcome difficulties without waging global jihad? There is oppression in the world. Palestinians are oppressed. They are no excuse for you to fail. But picking fights with powerful countries does not sound like a way to win LESS oppression.

Let's face it, violent jihad is cool. Toting an AK-47 seems heroic in an Islamic Rambo sort of way. Being able to spout some vague political diatribe to rationalize it, and spouting the Quran to further justify it just makes it cooler.

Here is the real way forward for your people. Develop tollerance, provide real education, work with countries to provide opportunities for your people to eliminate poverty, eliminate corruption, put the frikkin' ak-47's away.

31

I think you meant to say 150 million Pakistanis, but point taken.

32

Faisal,

I’d agree with you on the general sense, but here’s the catch.

Palestine, Kashmir and Chechnya have hardly any local jihadis. Instead, you have people in Pakistan, Indonesia or Saudi Arabia who use the above to teach their people to kill.

In this case, the “cause” is less important than the need to slaughter the kaffirs.

The article below is very illustrative.

33

Yes, 150 million. Indonesia has 250 million, and they do not seem to be producing many global jihadis....

34

Well, you may not agree with it yourself, but many of these jihadi organizations actively promote the notion of ummah.. so a muslim "warrior" will go and fight anywhere, his/her muslim brothers and sisters are in trouble. So local or foreigner.. the issue is moot for them. Its a fight to gain independence from non-believers. And lets not kid ourselves. There is definitely local support. In the larger scheme of things the issue of foreigners coming in to fight is not relevant.

And it is this notion of one muslim ummah that turns friend of enemies into your enemies. Thats how Musharraf is an enemy (cz he supports America, which in turn supports Israel, which in turn persecutes muslims of Palestine). So, you see, the whole cycle is linked. Anyone who supports Musharraf is either an enemy to be killed or a fool who needs to be "converted". From jihadis stand point, its very black and white.

35

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Yes, 150 million. Indonesia has 250 million, and they do not seem to be producing many global jihadis....
[/QUOTE]

You might want to rethink that.

Jemaah Islamiah is now morphing into a global threat.

36

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Yes, 150 million. Indonesia has 250 million, and they do not seem to be producing many global jihadis....
[/QUOTE]
Its just a matter of time.

37

Faisal,

I agree with you on the jihadis seeing no national borders.

But the fact is that there will always be injustice in the world. Can you tell me a period of time in history when people, including Muslims, were not at the receiving end of some conflict or another?

So why is the jihadi movement mushrooming of late?

Could it just be that fighting "oppression" on fellow Muslims has become a convenient excuse to arm and kill because of the collapse of governments in Muslims nations? Could it be that Muslim rulers have gotten used to spreading jihad to cover up for their ineptitude?

Why aren't Bahrainis or Dawoodi Bohras heeding the call for jihad while many Pakistanis and Saudis do?

38

TALWAR

The simple matter is that if oppression causes jihad, then why are most jihadi groups formed in nations ruled by Muslim rulers? As I pointed out in my previous post, Pakistan itself has anywhere between 200,000 and 500,000 jihadis.
<<<

ummm because Jihadis are Muslims and most countries with large Muslim populations are ruled by Muslim rulers?

What the heck are they fighting for?

Jihadism - i.e the use of military training of religious youth is a tactic that grows out of bigotry and hatred.

The only root cause of jihadis is their own hatred of other faiths. Kashmir, Palestine and others are just excuses to slaughter innocents. <<<

and what exactly are they trying to achieve? they just have a blind thirst to hate and kill? and what do they achieve by that?

MV

With all due respect irem, I only know anything about you by virtue of what you say and write. My comments are all and only related to what you say and write. If you, in real life, are something different than you say and write, then my comments about what you say and write don't apply to you. <<<

Its an assumption on your part though that I have unravelled all my aspects and actions on this board so you can draw conclusions about what I must do in real life too. Well, I havent :-)

If you think you will be left unchallenged when you say and write that there would be less Islamic terrorism if only there were "more economic prosperity in Muslim countries" and then go on to blame the "west" for not providing it, you're wrong. Country after country in the Islamic world could provide their populations with more economic prosperty if only they would spread the wealth from exploitation of their natural resources to the task at hand instead of sucking it into bottomless private bank accounts. And it should be the best and brightest of the intellectuals in these countries leading the campaign to reform them on behalf of the poor and downtrodden. It's such a waste when the best and the brightest choose to feed themselves on the table scraps their leaders throw from the table and dutifully point their fingers west and repeat the accepted mantra like a bunch of Kool Aid kids. <<<

I'm not saying we're completely innocent, we're not. However, the west is not playing the role it could have and still can to make things better for us, instead its indulging in exploitation in many cases. As simple as that.

PS. When I refer to to the "best and brightest" feeding on table scraps and Kool Aid Kids, please be aware that I am speaking in general terms and not directing my wrath personally at you. <<<

no worriez, its all kool, and same here :-) this is just a message board for discussion of issues

Talwar

thanks for the links

Then why are there so many Islamic nations with passports, borders and such? The Muslim ummah is a dream today. Can you go to Turkey or Mauritania without visa today? Can people from those nations come to Pakistan without passport? <<<

that doesn't matter coz in spirit and belief we are united, and the spirit of brotherhood exists among us alhamdulillah

OG

Do you realize the absurdity of all this oppression? There are over 250 million Pakistani's. Somehow there lives have been ruined by the US? They are not able to overcome difficulties without waging global jihad? There is oppression in the world. Palestinians are oppressed. They are no excuse for you to fail. But picking fights with powerful countries does not sound like a way to win LESS oppression. <<<

I've replied to this point in my reply to MV above...

Let's face it, violent jihad is cool. Toting an AK-47 seems heroic in an Islamic Rambo sort of way. Being able to spout some vague political diatribe to rationalize it, and spouting the Quran to further justify it just makes it cooler. <<<

"spouting the Quran" that's not a nice way to say it... :-)

anyways...

no, violence is never cool, no Muslim believes that...its become a need for many, a last resort...

Here is the real way forward for your people. Develop tollerance, provide real education, work with countries to provide opportunities for your people to eliminate poverty, eliminate corruption, put the frikkin' ak-47's away.<<<

Tolerance? I suggest you personally visit Pakistan, go to small towns and cities and villages, even wear a tee-shirt that says I LOVE AMERICA and see how ppl treat you. People will treat you with kindness and hospitality. We are a tolerant people, just a bit emotional. And we usually reciprocate a kindness ten folds. However, the hand of kindness has not been extended towards us. Instead, we've been dished oppression.

39

“Instead, we’ve been dished oppression”

Please elaborate in detail on all this oppression. I have not seen any armies occupying Pakistan?

“no, violence is never cool, no Muslim believes that”

What are you blind? Or are there a bunch of fake Muslims blowing stuff up in Bali and Spain?

Interesting article:

London mosque link to Beslan

Jason Burke
Sunday October 3, 2004
The Observer

A member of the group responsible for the Beslan school massacre last month is a British citizen who attended the infamous Finsbury Park mosque in north London, The Observer can reveal.
Two other members of the group, loyal to Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, are also believed to have been active in the UK until less than three years ago. They are suspected of taking part in the raid on the school in which 300 people, half of them children, died.

Russian security sources described Kamel Rabat Bouralha, 46 years old and the oldest of the three, as a ‘key aide’ of Basayev, who has a £5.5 million price on his head. Basayev has boasted of training the men who took control of the school and wired it with explosives. Investigators believe that the three men, all Algerian-born, travelled to Chechnya from London to take part in fighting there in 2001.

Russian investigators are thought to have now identified most of the 33 men who occupied the school in Beslan last month. They include two Algerians in their mid-30s called Osman Larussi and Yacine Benalia. Both are thought to have been based in London until recently. Like Bouralha, they too are believed to have attended Finsbury Park mosque and to have joined the network of groups loyal to Basayev on arrival in Chechnya.

General Ilya Shabalkin said that Bouralha had been detained while attempting to leave Russia for medical treatment in Azerbaijan. ‘He says he is innocent, but there is strong evidence of his involvement in a grave crime,’ Shabalkin said.

Senior sources at Scotland Yard are investigating the Russian information. Former associates in London confirmed that Bouralha had been a frequent visitor at Finsbury Park mosque from around 2000.

According to Russian security sources, there are up to 300 Arab mercenaries operating with rebel formations in Chechnya. However, Moscow has been keen to exaggerate ‘foreign’ elements among Chechen militants, often blaming ‘al-Qaeda’ despite little evidence to suggest the group’s involvement. Recently some analysts have tried to establish links between Chechen militants and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s al-Tauhid group, which is holding Ken Bigley hostage in Iraq.

The Observer has obtained detailed reports into al-Zarqawi’s group compiled largely from ‘communications intercepts’ by a Western intelligence service. A series of telephones seized from militants has allowed investigators to build up a picture of a European network that stretches from Poland to the UK. There are several references to obtaining false documents from London.

40

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
"Instead, we've been dished oppression"

Please elaborate in detail on all this oppression. I have not seen any armies occupying Pakistan?

"no, violence is never cool, no Muslim believes that"

What are you blind? Or are there a bunch of fake Muslims blowing stuff up in Bali and Spain?
[/QUOTE]

By we, I meant the Muslim ummah, not Pakistan.

As I said, a Muslim cannot ever think that violence is "cool" bc thats against the message of our religion, and so self contradictory. However, violence as a reaction to violence, for the sake of defence and survival is allowed.

hmmm

i'm off now...
salams, peace :-)
irem