Recruitment for Jihadi Organizations - Ideological Compatability or Economic Pressure

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

A lot of guppies believe in “ Introspection”…so lets do some. The whole World is currently discussing jihadi organizations and we at WA forum are not an exception .

Are all jihadis choosing to join these organizations because of an ideological compatibility or is it growing economic pressure in poor Muslim countries that compels Muslim youth to become a part of these jihadi organizations? Is Osama Bin Ladan a true ideological model for all these jihadists or is he a mere paymaster for many of them? Are jihadi movements in majority of Muslims countries purely based on the concept of revival of Islam or are they the result of growing frustration among Muslim youth against poverty and economic injustices?

I personally believe that blaming economic injustice to be the sole factor behind the evolution of these jihadi movements, is debatable but I also strongly believe that this particular factor is worth a debate. At least I can speak of Pakistan where in NWFP, interior Sindh and interior Punjab, thousands of young Muslims tend to join these organizations because it would help them get reasonable money every month.

Do you guys think that if a large-scale movement is initiated with the help of the West to provide a stable life to these young Muslims, it would decrease the jihadi organization’s recruitment? All millions of dollars that Mr. Bush is spending in war on terrorism could easily be spend on improving the infrastructure and economic conditions of these poor countries so that these frustrated young men could get some hope and they think million times before blowing themselves up. Wishful thinking…..isn’t it….

2

Re: Recruitment for Jihadi Organizations - Ideological Compatability or Economic Pressure

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by phoenixdesi: *
..... Do you guys think that if a large-scale movement is initiated with the help of the West to provide a stable life to these young Muslims, it would decrease the jihadi organization’s recruitment? ....
[/QUOTE]

No. Money is not an issue. If you have a business plan, state department or other funding agencies will give you money.

After the fall of Soviets, Biddu philosophy has taken up the commie leftie, anarchist flag.

You have to eradicate this Biddu-ization of Pakistan.

3

It is both; brain washing comes first and then the benefits of getting brain washed, that is money.

I believe like me every one knows about recruitments for jehadis in europes say uk and saudia etc etc

but now it has become difficult. So money might play a larger role to purchase the people to do the job wanted by some one done in the name of jehad.

Where as any cowardly act; in which one kills other by decieving from behind, or succide attacks using remote controls, which is only option left, is unislamic. Bye sokoon

4

But what if there were legit jobs?

Hired to work in a field one tried for?

Back during the U.S. depression.. One of the better presidents U.S. ever had ...(Roosevelt) created Works.Progress.Administration.

Idea was to create jobs...for people...with tax dollars. The tax dollars went for jobs for the people.......rather than tax writeoff's for the wealthy.

Today...you can read about people ....who wrote....who worked for the WPA.

IMHO the WPA is wealth of historic knowledge.

5

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
But what if there were legit jobs?

Hired to work in a field one tried for?

Back during the U.S. depression.. One of the better presidents U.S. ever had ...(Roosevelt) created Works.Progress.Administration.

Idea was to create jobs...for people...with tax dollars. The tax dollars went for jobs for the people.......rather than tax writeoff's for the wealthy.

Today...you can read about people ....who wrote....who worked for the WPA.

IMHO the WPA is wealth of historic knowledge.
[/QUOTE]

This is true. Back in depression days, USA administration started working on some huge construction projects such as Hoover Dam so that people could get jobs...it was and it is a very good policy to keep people engaged when things are not going that well economically. Even today, when there is a recession in USA market, you will see a lot of infrastructure development around you. Remember all those blocked highways for maintenance and construction projects going on in suburbs….

But unfortunately, things are stagnant in muslin countries. For instance, in Pakistan there is a desperate need of large dams. Being a water resources consulting engineer myself, I cannot emphasize how critical it is to build large dams in Pakistan but we are not able to do it because of political maneuvering. So how could one expect people getting jobs when there are no new projects? of course one should expect an increase in jihadi organization’s recruitment.

6

Economics are a reason for the jihadi foot soldiers you see in madrassas, but for the higher level terrorists like Mohammed Atta, who were educated and well off, ideology is a much bigger factor.

If poverty was the only root cause of terrorism, Africa would be the greatest producer of worldwide terrorism, but in fact it is oil rich Arabia that is.

Africa has had more injustice done to it from outsiders and from its own people, but we don’t see Africans as a whole taking part in international terrorist incidents. Except perhaps for the Muslim African-Arabs who are part of Al Qaeda.

7

PD,

This "Jihadi" thing is obviously foreign to me, however there are other examples in history where fighters have been so enraptured that they commit suicidal acts. The common thread is a almost cult-like brain washing, emphasizing heroism, nationalism, religion and protecting the weak. By pumping up the testosterone level, the normal fear of dying is overcome.

Much like a disease, violent Jihad has a method of transmission, and factors that enable the disease. Mosques that allow violent speeches, are the epicenter of recruiting and organization. It is politically incorrect to lay this blame, but fiery speechs on Friday frequently lead to violence immediately after.

The 19 hijackers were not poor. They were sucked into this web of violence, and they experienced heavy reinforcement of the ideals from the media and global communications. The kids who did Columbine were not poor either, they were young and impressionable, and dissatisfied. I would wager that 90% of the Jihadi movement is under 35 years of age. The cult is thriving on visuals, repeatables, and a large degree of brainwashing and misinformation. Al-jazzera has a reporter in Fallujah who will be killed the moment he reports that anyone other than women and children have been killed. Al-Jazeera does nothing to frame the reporting with the conditions the reporter is working under, that would also get the reporter killed. So viewers are left with the impression that every bomb is laser guided to a child. The reporting from the Palestinian territories is much the same.... Fuel for the anger...

I cannot tell you how many times on this board someone has quoted how many *millions * of muslims the US has killed. There are wild stories about the raping of women, and jews who grind Palestinians into thier meals. These self perpetuating urban legends fuel the anger. There are websites which look "normal" that carry the most fantastic rumors and conspiracies that further enhance the mood. How many times have we seen images of some masked charachter infront of some home made banner, reading his proclamation with an ak-47 slung over his shoulder? The bombardment of these romanicized images is instantaneously spread around the globe.

I don't think that this has a thing to do with economics. This has to do with the Muslim worlds' Gen X feeling powerless. The demographics are exploding, and there are millions of newly aware young Muslims who read and learn how the Ottoman Empire used to run things, and a replay of that sounds pretty good. So if you are brutal enough you can get what you want.

The roots of this brutality go back to the Afghanistan war. The Afghans were losing badly to the Soviets, and they continued to fight. Radical Islam feeds on this victory as if they proved something to themselves. They completely discount the guns and money donated by others, and they believe that God gave them this victory. (as every military has for centuries). Afghanistan was the proof of concept. If we are brutal enough, God will give us victory. Worst case you get the virgins. They extrapolate Afghanistan to the entire Ottoman Empire II.

This epidemic is still in it's infancy, the worst is yet to come.

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by phoenixdesi: *

This is true. Back in depression days, USA administration started working on some huge construction projects such as Hoover Dam so that people could get jobs...it was and it is a very good policy to keep people engaged when things are not going that well economically. Even today, when there is a recession in USA market, you will see a lot of infrastructure development around you. Remember all those blocked highways for maintenance and construction projects going on in suburbs….

But unfortunately, things are stagnant in muslin countries. For instance, in Pakistan there is a desperate need of large dams. Being a water resources consulting engineer myself, I cannot emphasize how critical it is to build large dams in Pakistan but we are not able to do it because of political maneuvering. So how could one expect people getting jobs when there are no new projects? of course one should expect an increase in jihadi organization’s recruitment.
[/QUOTE]

Do you think you can take charge and speak out? Write letters...many letters...if ignored..pass em out yourself?

Be strong and teach non-violence.

Teach sitting down in front of the Police if you have to....because thats what it takes.

Sticking to ideals without violence.

9

Only Allah knows their intentions.
True Jihadis should not be questioned and judged like other people sitting at home.

10

I often think about it while enjoying my evening drink. I think it is lack of direction and opportunities that drive people to radicalism. Give them something to do, and they wont go around killing others.

However, the term “Jihad or Jihadi” is overused these days. Most these fundos are not Jihadis, they are not fighting for an ideology, but for a piece of land or for something else. There always is a reason – more than often it is ‘revenge’. No one should think that it is an ‘ideology’ that they are fighting for. It’s a bunch of deranged idiots that are easily steered into terror and murder. The poster-boys of terror (OBL, KSM, etc.) are impotent disgruntled basturds who were bullied in school when they were young – they are like the guys who went on a killing spree in Columbine – except that these idiots want to do it on a global scale.

This is not about Allah, Jihad, Islam, it is about sickness.

11

well...

hmmm

a very pertinent thread

i think if there was economic prosperity in Muslim countries, we would not be as oppressed sociopolitically by unfriendly forces, thus the sociopolitical injustices that currently trigger off militant jihad now would also be decreased to a great degree...

so yes, i do think that if there was more economic prosperity in Muslim countries, and economic equality throughout the whole world, the political turmoil would also be significantly milder and thus the number of suicide bombers and militant jihadis would be less as well...

it is sad and unfortunate that the west can spend money on making weapons to target populations but not on providing them education, food and development opportunities...

12

I'd reiterate though that the reason that imho the majority do jihad is neither because they are merely frustrated or because they are paid. I agree with what MyStiCaL_MisS said also that we have no right to judge anyone's intention.

I am dismayed though by some replies in this thread which belittle jihadis.

The truth is: there IS unjust oppression in the world against Muslims, look at what happenned in Palestine and Iraq and Kashmir recently, how many innocent people were killed. In such a sitation, there will be jihadis in retaliation and they have every right to fight for their rights, to defeat oppression.

13

Ohioguy,

Originally posted by Ohioguy<<<

PD,

This "Jihadi" thing is obviously foreign to me, however there are other examples in history where fighters have been so enraptured that they commit suicidal acts. The common thread is a almost cult-like brain washing, emphasizing heroism, nationalism, religion and protecting the weak. By pumping up the testosterone level, the normal fear of dying is overcome.

Much like a disease, violent Jihad has a method of transmission, and factors that enable the disease. Mosques that allow violent speeches, are the epicenter of recruiting and organization. It is politically incorrect to lay this blame, but fiery speechs on Friday frequently lead to violence immediately after. <<<

While it may be true that some mosques do preach blind hatred, because like every other nation, we Muslims are not perfect, it is also true that they are in a very small minority, but there is propaganda that showcases them as being representative. Even today, despite all the oppression Muslims are facing all over the world, our religious leaders do exhort us to tolerance. Here's an example. One of the most revered religious sermons for us is the sermon during Hajj, the annual Muslim pilgrimage, that the Imaam, religious leader, of the Kaaba in Saudia Arabia delivers. If you look at those sermons you will see that every year the Imaam exhorts the Muslims in the world to peace and tolerance.

However, there's a limit to peaceful tolerance, and once you're pushed against a wall, you're not left with many options. Yet, Muslims are never on the offensive.

Your claim that it is our religious leaders who incite us to senseless violence is false.

I would wager that 90% of the Jihadi movement is under 35 years of age. The cult is thriving on visuals, repeatables, and a large degree of brainwashing and misinformation. <<<

That is not true.

Jihadis hail from populations which are being mercilessly oppressed and they become jihadis to fight that oppression.

Al-jazzera has a reporter in Fallujah who will be killed the moment he reports that anyone other than women and children have been killed. Al-Jazeera does nothing to frame the reporting with the conditions the reporter is working under, that would also get the reporter killed. So viewers are left with the impression that every bomb is laser guided to a child. The reporting from the Palestinian territories is much the same.... Fuel for the anger... <<<

I don't think this is accurate. Israel has full control of the Palestinian territories, yet you claim that the media in Palestine is biased in favor of Muslims, and Israel is letting that happen under its nose. I can not stomach that. The truth is in fact that the reports we hear from the western media are disgustingly biased. Just look at the way the western media covered Samarra, Iraq recently, painting those people who were killed as rebels, Allah only knows the truth, but there were many innocent civilians among those killed. We probably do not even hear of a large percentage of the oppression that is going on in Palestine.

I cannot tell you how many times on this board someone has quoted how many *millions * of muslims the US has killed. There are wild stories about the raping of women, and jews who grind Palestinians into thier meals. These self perpetuating urban legends fuel the anger. There are websites which look "normal" that carry the most fantastic rumors and conspiracies that further enhance the mood. How many times have we seen images of some masked charachter infront of some home made banner, reading his proclamation with an ak-47 slung over his shoulder? The bombardment of these romanicized images is instantaneously spread around the globe. <<<

I agree with you, this does happen. However, this is just a very small and insignificant player in the larger scheme of things.

I don't think that this has a thing to do with economics. This has to do with the Muslim worlds' Gen X feeling powerless. The demographics are exploding, and there are millions of newly aware young Muslims who read and learn how the Ottoman Empire used to run things, and a replay of that sounds pretty good. So if you are brutal enough you can get what you want. <<<

I'm sorry, but this is just...absurd! Its far from the truth.

These Muslim youths are not on some blind and thirsty rampage for power. They are defending their rights against oppression, there's a big difference. Brutalities are being committed against them, not the other way round.

The roots of this brutality go back to the Afghanistan war. The Afghans were losing badly to the Soviets, and they continued to fight. Radical Islam feeds on this victory as if they proved something to themselves. They completely discount the guns and money donated by others, and they believe that God gave them this victory. (as every military has for centuries). Afghanistan was the proof of concept. If we are brutal enough, God will give us victory. Worst case you get the virgins. They extrapolate Afghanistan to the entire Ottoman Empire II. <<<

I'll just say that the above statements are simply not true.

This epidemic is still in it's infancy, the worst is yet to come.<<<

In the larger scheme of things, whether in this life or the afterlife, justice always prevails.

14

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *

it is sad and unfortunate that the west can spend money on making weapons to target populations but not on providing them education, food and development opportunities...
[/QUOTE]

That's right. Got to blame ** the west ** again. Hmm...why not blame Pakistan for spending so much on weapons and developing the bomb rather than feeding, educating and providing opportunities for all those poverty stricken littering that country. Or how about blaming Lil Kim for making his people eat human flesh to avoid starvation while building his little nuke arsenal. Or how about blaming corrupt rulers who stick every dollar they loot from poor countries' natural resources or humanitarian aid down their private ratholes.

One of the reasons for educating foreign students is so that when they go home they can try to spread the word on education, development opportunities and food programs within their own countries. Instead, we just see some of these students go back home and perpetuate the "it's all the West's fault" mentality.

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

That's right. Got to blame ** the west ** again. Hmm...why not blame Pakistan for spending so much on weapons and developing the bomb rather than feeding, educating and providing opportunities for all those poverty stricken littering that country. Or how about blaming Lil Kim for making his people eat human flesh to avoid starvation while building his little nuke arsenal. Or how about blaming corrupt rulers who stick every dollar they loot from poor countries' natural resources or humanitarian aid down their private ratholes.

One of the reasons for educating foreign students is so that when they go home they can try to spread the word on education, development opportunities and food programs within their own countries. Instead, we just see some of these students go back home and perpetuate the "it's all the West's fault" mentality.
[/QUOTE]

myvoice, with all due respect, please avoid making personal references to me or my background. thanks. you don't even know me and you have no idea what i'm doing or what kind of views about the west i'm spreading among pakistanis. you're making some baseless assumptions about me here based on some posts of mine, how do you know what my motivation is behind even writing those posts?

anyways, i don't think this thread is the place for me to clarify anything related to me. so i'll get back to the topic and reply to some points you raised.

Pakistan made the bomb in retaliation to India's arms buildup. If Israel's buddy India, our terrorist neighbor, was not stockpiling weapons we would not have done that. Our nuclear programme is a reactionary one, necessary for our defence and survival. We also tested our nuclear weapns after India, we were not the first ones to test.

16

Pakistan probably has the worlds largest number of jihadis. Over 3 million madrassa students, 15% are jihad related according to Pakistan govt itself.

Why are so many Pakistanis joining jihadi groups in such large numbers?

Does this mean that there is injustice, oppression and violence being perpetrated on Pakistanis? Whose rights are these guys defending?

Why should the West give money to Muslim countries? How about people earning what they get?

If charity is to be relied upon, why not shake down the fat Arab oil shiekhs, who spend millions drinking and womanizing in the West but go back home and pretend like religious people.

17

Irem,

We're oppressed so it's all OK, blah, blah, blah........

I may barf.

When I hear people here calling for the end of corruption, greater economic opportunity, quality education, criticising Arafat and holding other Jihad icons to account I'll be impressed.

When you come to realize that the jihadis have become the spokesmen for your religion, and that will bring nothing but MORE horror to Islam, then you may get it. But for the time being you have swallowed a load of crap hook line and sinker, and have learned to regurgitate it pretty well.

18

Talwar, we are training them to find employment in Iraq and other areas. There’s no need for them in Pakistan since Mushy is closing factories in Kashmir. Actually if you happen to meet any one, just ask them if they even know what the heck are they hink they are doing? Their only motivation is (at least majority of them) to have two meals a day. They don’t know that they pay for that with their lives. And their mommy and daddy think they got Shahada… yeah Shahadda my ass. They should get it sooner than later.

:jhanda:

19

Talwar, just like Kashmir is your internal matter buddy, this is our internal matter, so we don't need to answer or explain to you ;)

But, I'll still reply...

1) Please, tell me where exactly is this survey you are talking about? I'd surely like to see the exact source. Mehrbani.

2) Do you know that there are students from many different countries studying in Pakistani madrasshs?

3) Do you know that the entire Muslim ummah is united and there's no concept of nationality in the ummah?

20

^except when it comes to killing Shias.