Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

The nature of the state if given independence is not the issue. The issue is whether they have a right to decide their own fate. In principle, all people should have right to their own identity.

If we can reconcile ourselves with the partition of Punjab, im sure Kashmir wont be such a huge deal. Done tactfully and keeping in mind the mistakes made at partition, this time the division of the state would be far more amicable. Nor should the Kashmirs division mean the destruction of the Kashmir identity. If you can imagine something similar to the EU for Kashmir, and indeed the rest of the Subcontinent, then borders are more state of mind then an actual boundary.

Whether it would be successful state or an utter failure is conjecture at best. I suppose it depends on the nature of its relations. If it can maintain a working relationship with India and Pakistan (and China) it will do fine. i dont know very much about the Kashmir economy or its potential, but its seems like it must have a great deal of it if utilized efficiently.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

Franchise? If I eat at a McDonalds because that is the only place there is to eat, that doesnt mean I accept McDonalds, it means im hungry and I have no choice. Likewise, voting in Kashmir is eating from India's trough, not because you want to but because you have to.

Voting does not necessarily equate to acceptance of a state. People vote for a number of reasons. People vote because they want to elect genuine leaders who can attend to their needs, they vote because they want perks, they vote because someone they know is running and need their support. They vote because that is their only option. In Kashmir, their is no other way to maintain the bare minimum in terms of quality of life unless you partake in the voting process. In this for example, with the BJP rearing its head, people know that if they dont vote then Hindus in Jammu will vote for them. So its obviously a complex issue, but i dont see how you can conclude that simply voting is acceptance of India. Thats neither logically sound, nor is it supported by actual facts on the ground.

The non-acceptance of that pseudo-factual declaration that Kashmiris accept India because they vote is based on what I stated above. There is no logical reason to conclude that people voting to ensure their own basic needs, are voting for India. They vote because under the circumstances its the best they can hope for. Its pragmatic acceptance of circumstance, not acceptance of India.

Pakistan's supposed "proxy war" wouldn't need to have started first of all, if India had done what it promised to do according to the UN accord. Intransigence and deception you see creates resentment and poisons the environment. Nor has this supposed war gone on for Decades. Its started secondary to the uprising in Occupied Kashmir itself by the Kashmiri's themselves, following mass rigging in the 1987 elections. There has been a long history of Indians manipulating politics in Kashmir. And whatever Pakistan did or did not do does not justify the mass human rights violation commited by your army, which is documented.
Nor does it justify draconian laws passed to continue to subjugate the state.

What you believe about Kashmir is based entirely on wishful thinking on you and the part of your govt.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

Mera bhai. You are angry and so you didnt read anything i posted. Whats the point of debating if you dont read? You nationalism shouldnt take control of your better sense or your humanity.

Read without your angry eyes. You missed what i said. The 1987 (and all elections prior) not 2002 elections had high turn out. This was just prior to the uprising. Another words, if high voter turn out meant the people of Kashmir accept India, then there would not have been an uprising against India in 1989. After the 1989 elections, it took this long, over 20 years, for voter turn out to return to such high levels.

The APHC is Indias bogey man. Pandits and APHC, its like every Indian has memorized the titles and spout them at every turn. Honestly, its like all of you read from the same script.

The APHC also took part in the 1989 elections, but refused to do so afterward because of the rigging that occured in 1989.

Your logic is just that... YOUR logic. I havent come accross a single Kashmiri who has made such a claim. I even provided you an article in which a Kashmiri himself says the same exact thing i am saying, that voting does not equate to acceptance of India. I have provided you an article in which a non Kashmir non Indian who has visitied occupied Kashmir and spoken to Kashmiris in the valley says the same thing, that Kashmiris have NOT accepted India despite having voted.
Yet here you are concluding something entirely different, and not providing any evidence, not a shred, to support it. Just because you claim something doesnt make it fact.

Think about this. I dont agree with the foriegn and certain domestic policies of the US. I dont like their policy towards Palestinians, I dont like the policy towards the middle east or South Asia. And yet I vote.
Now does voting mean I accept everything the US does? No!

Voting does not equate to acceptance, it simply means your voting.

If you want to know how the feel, ask them directly (assuming that is possible since Indian spies are apparently everywhere in Kashmir). A referandum that gives clear choices, yes or no stay with India or not is the only clear cut way to determine how people feel. Everything else is just wishful thinking.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

I take it all back Arleitter saab.. You are now a confirmed expert on Kashmir !

Here is the interesting bit in the abstract that I find relevent:

The separatist sentiment, the paper argues, remains ascendant, even though mainstream politics (that had become totally irrelevant during the initial years of militancy and political upsurge) has been gradually gaining space. Rather than challenging separatist politics, mainstream politics is seeking to legitimise itself by acknowledging its own limitations and confining itself to the politics of ‘governance’ while leaving for separatist politics the issue of the ‘ultimate resolution of conflict’.

Did you miss this part at the very begining?

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

Also this from Arleiters post in reference to the Amarnath agitation.
Electoral Politics in the Context of Separatism and Political Divergence: An Analysis of 2009 Parliamentary elections in Jammu & Kashmir
“The public display of the separatist sentiments during this time gave an indication that ** beyond the electoral vibrancy, the deep-rooted sense of alienation continued to prevail**. Throughout the period of agitation one could feel that the** mainstream politics had once more regressed to the background ** and the separatist politics had become ascendant.”

Another words, Voting as I said does not mean Kashmiris have accepted India.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

My god man, you just dont get it.

  1. This is “Times of INDIA,” they are Indian media, hence automatically a biased source. I dont cite Pakistani sources or Indian sources because I know they can be biased. Give me the unfiltered oppinion of Kashmiris themselves or someone that isnt Indian or Pakistani.

  2. I already acknowledge that people voted. So this article only repeats what I already said.

  3. This still does not in any way support your belief that by voting the people are voting FOR India.

Your becoming redundant.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

Well if you think these positive changes are worthy of discussion, then a cursory glance at how this debate has gone should be an indicator that the issue is still not one you should bring up in polite company.

And what is poitive or not, is subjective. If I posted articles about Kashmiri's protesting as I consider that a positive and productive way of them expressing their rights, you would probably not consider that all that positive im sure.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..


i agree. i just think a lot people assume the legacy princely state's borders would be of relevance in a plebiscite. a lot of pro-independence kashmiris are likely under the impression that their new nation would be the existing state re-branded. i wonder how many would still secede knowing that the new nation would be comprised of a handful of tehsils. in other words, even in their best case scenario india would never allow any territory not populated by a secessionist majority to secede even if the overall vote was above 50%.

this isn't an argument against their right to self-determination, just thoughts on the outcome.

[quote]
If we can reconcile ourselves with the partition of Punjab, im sure Kashmir wont be such a huge deal. Done tactfully and keeping in mind the mistakes made at partition, this time the division of the state would be far more amicable. Nor should the Kashmirs division mean the destruction of the Kashmir identity. If you can imagine something similar to the EU for Kashmir, and indeed the rest of the Subcontinent, then borders are more state of mind then an actual boundary.

Whether it would be successful state or an utter failure is conjecture at best. I suppose it depends on the nature of its relations. If it can maintain a working relationship with India and Pakistan (and China) it will do fine. i dont know very much about the Kashmir economy or its potential, but its seems like it must have a great deal of it if utilized efficiently.
[/QUOTE]
i don't think any conceivable outcome would necessitate forcible mass migration. the area that could conceivably comprise a new country was ethnically cleansed decades ago.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

You have embarrassed yourself big time here. Med claimed in 87 the turnout was even higher. So this is not a record turnout. Med further stated clearly that since 87, voter turnout decreases. And has now recovered to 71 pct.

Med didn’t state turnout in 2002 was high or higher.

You have either serious comprehension issues. Or your are willfully ignoring the truth. There is a word for that.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

Well as I said, the contours of the final solution to the problem require some serious negotiations between the involved parties. I cant assume to know what that might be, its obviously a complicated issue and a lot of compromise needs to be made.

And when I mentioned Punjab, i wasnt referring to the mass migration aspect, but rather the fact that a state can be split in two and life would still go on.
In the case of Kashmir, it should be that much simpler as most of the areas that may theoretically become independent are already predominantly Muslim.

What they want, or dont want. Its all up in the air until serious negotiations are conducted. However, this propagandist nonsense claiming they have voted so they must all love India and its all rainbows and butterflies needs to stop so that genuine negotiations are conducted against a backdrop thats based on reality and not fiction.

I dont presume to know what 7 million people want. But then neither do these people who make this claim based on voter turn-out. Yet here we are, trying to peddle this same tired argument over and over, which for those who didnt know, has always been used by India to bolster its claim for as far back as the first Kashmir election in 1950's, which also say a descent turn out.

For what its worth though, if Indian rule in the Valley is as oppressive as claimed, I think the people will accept independance in any shape they can. At the very least they will opt out of India or demand near complete autonomy and a significant number may even choose to join Pakistan.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

Not only that, but the article that Arleiter himself cited regarding the history of Kashmir elections in the context of the insurgency, itself states that despite the increase in voter turn out, Secessionist sentiment is in ascendency. There-by contradicting his entire assertion.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

^ now you are attempting to confuse with facts and logic. For shame!

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

ha ha ! this is what happens when you try to not just want to believe in a lie knowingly but also start talking anout it. just look at how you started the post (bolded) and then see how you end it (again bolded). In your own words, the McD is not wishful thinking isit?

Anyway I don't need you guys telling us about Kashmir and Kashmiris. Just suffice that you understand 70+ is pretty darn good voting by itself and that in spite of cross border terrorists and their local separatists thugs threats, is clear and final of how Kashmiris think.

I mean, just think about it - Kashmiris, like rest of India, see what's going on in Pakistan. They have seen what Pakistan did to East Bengal; they are seeing what Pakistan is doing to the Sindhis and Balooch. On the other hand they see India improving slowly but steadily. And they want to be part of it.

End coveting thy neighbor's house. Your house is on fire - fix it.

PS: I hear from a thankfully reducing number of youth from Pakistan about the so called Nehruvian promise for plebiscite - because I guess the youth is beginning to get what conditional means - The first condition is get all the Pakistani forces out of Kashmir.

Second- your admission above that Pakistan does conduct cross border terrorism is appreciated. Now what are you going to do to stop it?

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

The third phase of poll percentage is 58%.

It is largely because of terror threats.Recently there have been a couple of terror attacks in Kashmir.

People have discovered the folly in these separatists.Separatists are getting their pay cheques from their masters and making the lives of ordinary people a miserable by calling for strikes and violent means.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

yes. One such so called 'leader' was caught on video commandeering rescue boat for himself and his cronies, kicking out the poor locals during the flood! Their tactics are well understood now: help terrorists from Pakistan cross over and attack; when our forces fight back, thrust locals in front and start screaming 'Indian brutality'. And ofcourse they will have the section of media within India that will play dumb and not report the whole sequence but just the parts that make our side look bad.

Just take this case of voter turnout. The separatists and terrorists issued call to boycot the polls. If the public were sympathetic to their cause, they would have heeded that call. Instead they showed up in numbers.Under any reasoning this would be understood for the rejection of the separatist thugs by the people of J&K.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

There you are Med911 Bhai…

@Med911 @KKF @Samir Mirchandani

Even Dawn is saying that prople are ignoring `boycott’ calls… :rotfl:

Here is a news from not an `Indian’ media… :cb:

Please remember that Dawn has always been impartial and unbiased.This is the final nail in the coffin of Kashmir terrorism and APHC people are already restless…Let us see their new tactics… Colluding with ISIS ? :stuck_out_tongue:

Srinagar tense as Indian-held Kashmir elections continue - World - DAWN.COM

SRINAGAR: Indian-held Kashmir’s main city of Srinagar voted Sunday in continuing elections in the troubled region, where the party of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is making an unprecedented bid for power.

As armed police patrolled the streets in bulletproof vests, voters queued to cast their ballots in freezing weather in Srinagar and the Kashmir Valley, where a separatist campaign is centred.
Some 1.4 million residents are eligible to vote in 18 seats in the latest phase of the elections in the region, where a dozen rebel groups have been fighting Indian rule since 1989.
After winning power at national elections in May, Modi and his Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) are trying to take control of the state’s parliament with a promise of economic development.
**The BJP is fielding 32 Muslim candidates across the disputed region, where voters have so far ignored calls from separatists to boycott the election. **
Election results are due on December 23.
BJP candidate and Muslim Hina Bhat said voters might not like Modi, but like the rest of the country they believed his promise of economic prosperity.
“People will support Modi because now, like Muslims in India outside Kashmir, they know he delivers,” the dentist-turned-politician said.
“The local parties have treated Kashmiri people like cattle,” Bhat, 35, said recently in an interview while campaigning in Srinagar. “Here [in Kashmir] also people know in their hearts that going with Modi is good for them,” Hina added.
The BJP has traditionally had no base in the Kashmir Valley, where resentment against Indian rule runs high.
The picturesque Himalayan region is disputed between India and Pakistan and has been the scene of two wars between the countries.
Tens of thousands of people, mostly civilians, have died in violence between Indian security forces and rebels fighting for Kashmir’s independence or for its merger with Pakistan.
So the idea of the BJP taking even a share of power in Kashmir would have been unthinkable only a few months ago. But Modi’s landslide national election win, and a meltdown in support for the incumbent chief minister after deadly floods in September, have given the BJP hope of a breakthrough.
Backed by a media blitz, Modi himself has addressed four campaign rallies in the territory since elections were announced in October, promising economic growth and corruption-free government and steering clear of discussing the territory’s disputed status.
Some analysts said Modi’s “development-only talk” in Kashmir was a simplistic approach.
“No Indian prime minister is going to make a difference in Kashmir unless he addresses the dispute,” said columnist Siddiq Wahid.
But Hina said change would only come to the region through development and not endless talk about independence.
“It is now up to the people whether they want to sulk and crib about their situation or they want a change,” Hina said.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

You make an art out of missing the point.

I dont know why I even bother talking on the subject…

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

Is missing the point a euphemism for dishonest? For it seems the latter is a more apt description.

Signed

"self-loathing" member

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

Comeon Brother,there is only one arguement that is coming out from your side,that is people voted under `compulsion' and you were not readying to buy what the Indian media has said.Now I have given you what a Pak daily has mentioned.

Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..

And people like Arundati Roy fall in line with these APHC people and support them and some other ` Indian garbage wastes on fora’ ,try to follow her tail. It’s like an old monkey wandering in an urban ground. :cb: