Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
You can not generalize Indian media on that.There are a myriad independent medias.
And this is where you lose the plot.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
Did you get the irony here?
Dear Southie,neither you have made a point here nor you have give any valid point regarding the whole issue.All you are doing is just m
aking a one liner and you are just clinching on to that.I do not think you are adding anything.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
Boycott is an accepted form of potest.Agreed.But it is `received' only when the legitimate people call for it.APHC does not represent anything but a militant faction.(There may be some exceptions like Mr.Malik,who gave up the path of violence long back).
The people you claim represent Kashmiris, are only mandated to provide the basic needs of the people. This mandate is not set by the people who elect them, but by New Delhi. Because India will not allow it, these people that are elected do not have genuine freedom to make demands that the Indian state does not deem permisible.
Another words, if tomorrow, Omar Abdullah decides that he being the legitimate representative of the Kashmiri people will opt out and declare independence from India, do you think India will allow him that luxury?
The govt that you claim is legitimate is only legitimate in the eyes of the Indians if they play ball and do as they are told.
The real litmus test for the Indian state, if indeed it respects the democratic process and the respects the will of the people, is if they give them the referendum/plebiscite. Barring that, these elections are meaningless and the true will of the people is never truly ascertained through them.
All your talk of "representation" is hollow and hypocritical when you never give the people a right to choose if they even want to be a part of your nation in the first place. The elections are nothing more then a sop, something to soothe your conscience. The people of Kashmir choose to have a govt that functions to provide basic needs and you tell yourself they have accepted your country! No, they accept that they needs clean water and education, and sadly, India is the only one under the cirumstances that can get them these basic needs.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
The bolded statement draws a a different reply.Kashmiris need not reply on Indian polls to voice their opinion.For years they had been depending on insurgency thinking that would fetch them freedom but years long armed struggle not only shed their lives but also ruptured their economy as well.This is one reason that Kashmiris started shunning the path of extremism and started looking to Delhi with hopes.Remember,after a due course of time only foreign mercenaries remained in Kashmir and indigenous groups have finally faded away. Kashmiris know that their future is with India only and that is the reason they turned out in such huge numbers for polls.
Assumptions... Based on what?
I need water, need education, need food, need health care, need sanitation (which ironically, are things that you know as well as I that India hasnt done a great job in providing to her own people let alone Kashmiris, so why would anyone look for hope in Dehi ? )
My jailer is the only one who can provide this. So I cooperate with my jailer.
According to your logic, because I cooperate with my jailer to have my basic needs met, I must have accepted being in jail !
Dont you think that if I had the option of NOT being in Jail and was given the opportunity to provide for myself, that I would take it?!?!?
Kashmiris likewise have to contend with their jailer, but given the opportunity would rather provide for themselves. The Indian jailer unfortunately have other plans.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
Dear Southie,neither you have made a point here nor you have give any valid point regarding the whole issue.All you are doing is just m aking a one liner and you are just clinching on to that.I do not think you are adding anything.
Samjhne walon ko ishara kafi hai.
I have made my point (s). One doesn't need to write an essay to make a point. Or two.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
Separatists have become irrelevant with the passage of time. I think Kashmiris have finally realised that their future is with India and not Pakistan. Interestingly sajjad lone (former) separatist leader could be bjp's ally after the elections and reportedly his wife is campaigning for bjp's candidates.
Its called "breaking" and "learned helplessness." These are things that they inflict on horses and other animals. Its sad enough to see an animal reduced to such a state but to see it among humans is truly pathetic. You shouldn't be celebrating it, you should be mourning it. To break a people and destroy their aspirations is not progress.
Anyhow, I dont think they have been entirely broken despite the Indian soldiers pointing their guns. How can you even make such an assumption?!?! what the Kashmiris say in public and what they say in private are two separate things.
And just in terms of morality and ethics, we should not accept oppresion of any people, either in India, or Pakistan. To say that they should just roll over and accept Indian rule belittles them as a people. We Pakistanis accept Bangladesh because we acknowledge that we did wrong by them, but we should advise the Kashmiris to accept India despite the wrongs done to them by the Indian state?!?!
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
This is all poor logic on your part kaka saab, im sorry to say.
One, where should they go if not to Delhi ? Beijing ?
Second, ofcrouse they will tell you they hate militants and love india! You are Indian! They are being polite, and they dont want to get themselves in trouble with indian security.
You see things from the perspective of a tourist. Thus your conclusion are somewhat biased by the fact.
This article from a few months ago is somewhat more accurate as it in not an Indians perspective. It contradicts your account, and also details why the oppinion of the situation differs between Indian tourists and Kashmirs locals.
BBC News - Three surprises from a visit to Kashmir
“Indian state wants to know exactly what people in Kashmir are saying. Which is one reason why the Kashmiri perspective on life in Kashmir is quite different to that of the tourists. Kashmiris have learnt to live with both political violence and the Indian intelligence agencies. If you are talking politics in a café in Srinagar and a stranger sits at the next table - you stop talking. If a foreign journalist asks you how many people in the Kashmir Valley support union with Pakistan, off the record you say 25% but on the record you adjust the number down to 10%.”
“The Indian army has been in Kashmir so long, and it has been given such huge resources, that it now has a** very tight grip on Kashmiri society**. The militants - rumour has it there now just around 100 in the Kashmir Valley - are up against an army that not only monitors all communications but also has a well-developed network of paid informers and that has got to know every nook and cranny of Kashmir.”
Indian state has been remarkably unsuccessful in winning over the residents of the Kashmir Valley. Even the pro-India National Conference seems to accept Indian a rule as an unavoidable reality rather than a desired outcome. Whether they come from political traditions that look to Delhi or to Islamabad there are **very few residents of the Kashmir Valley who would not embrace independence **with relief and enthusiasm
“**Many students in Srinagar are adamant: Indian rule is oppressive and they are willing, if necessary, to live their whole lives in resistance” **
So thats the other perspective which you somehow missed while you were on your vacation.
And last, look to Scotland, look to Quebec, look to the secisionists in Spain. The point is, people dont forget about independence and the promises made to them, regardless of progress economic or otherwise. And these aforementioned nations are far nicer and far more just then Indians are or have been. So you can fool yourself into thinking the issue of Kashmir is a passing phase, but reality speaks otherwise.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
Dear Southie,neither you have made a point here nor you have give any valid point regarding the whole issue.All you are doing is just m aking a one liner and you are just clinching on to that.I do not think you are adding anything.
You havent made a point either, all due respect.
You made a statement which is a very popular talking point in India, without a shred of evidence to back it up. You basically repeat Indian talking points and then try to pass it off as facts.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
Everyone is entitled to have an opinion and i respect that. Issue of Plebiscite is very much fantasized and romanticized by few people. It sounds like Kashmir was some alien country which India captured and they want to decide their fate.
I am not sure if there was a plebiscite condition set forth by Kashmir before joining India. No other state got this option then why should Kashmir suffer because of stupidity of nehru.
Plebiscite in kashmir will break it which no one wants. Lets say if plebiscite happens then pakistan's kashmir decides to stay under pakistan, srinagar wants to be independent country and jammu and laddakh will join india. It will be end of kashmir as we know it and i am against it. Indian kashmir is fine as it is , it just doesnt need outside interference with it from neighboring countries and if BJP win in local election then i hope they remove 370
So what if it ends Kashmir as you know it. The fate of Kashmir is for the Kashmiris to decide. And if the can break up Bengal and Punjab, why not Kashmir.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
IN INDIA mera bhai. Not in Kashmir.
It was allegations of mass rigging that created the insurgency in Kashmir in 1987.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
Arleitter, Med, at a higher pay grade, articulated what I wanted to.
You have been making some perfectly round rotis. You make statement A. And state statement A is fact. Then you claim the facts are on your side.
There is a huge market for round roti makers. I think you just won yourself a monopoly in an exploding market.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
You can not generalize Indian media on that.There are a myriad independent medias.
A few years back there were plans to charge Arundati Roy with sedition for speaking out against human rights abuse in Kashmir and for the right of the Kashmiris For Self Determination.
This was reported in the Guardian. Did any of the "myriad of Independent media" do a similar story? If yes, any links?
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
Arundhati Roy faces arrest over Kashmir remark | World news | The Guardian
Forgot to provide link
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
The very least you can do is stop drawing such blatantly false conclusions. **Voting does not equate too acceptance of India. **And whether they 'enjoy' living under indian occupation is debatable. The fact that we can get no genuine opinion from Kashmiris themselves, since there is a complete media blackout imposed by India and Indian spies ensure they stay in line, you should not make assumptions.
what does then? Kashmiris are better off staying with India because they can reap the benefits of economic progress and growth, democracy and freedom [only if they STOP their insurgency!].
Punjab tried it's best, with the help of some foreign forces, to separete from India but failed miserably. they have abandoned their insurgency and have been enjoying the benefits being a part of a fast developing and fast progressing country like India.
Kashmir can NOT be taken away from India by using FORCE by ANY country in the world. this is a FACT!
India was, is and will always be a part of India whether anyone likes it or not.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
what does then? Kashmiris are better off staying with India because they can reap the benefits of economic progress and growth, democracy and freedom [only if they STOP their insurgency!].
Punjab tried it's best, with the help of some foreign forces, to separete from India but failed miserably. they have abandoned their insurgency and have been enjoying the benefits being a part of a fast developing and fast progressing country like India.
Kashmir can NOT be taken away from India by using FORCE by ANY country in the world. this is a FACT!
India was, is and will always be a part of India whether anyone likes it or not.
Simple. When in a referandum the majority of people in Kashmir say they want to join India is the day you can say with confidence that the people of Kashmir have choosen to be Indian. Until then, you have no basis on which to make such claim beyond wishful thinking.
What is best for them is not for you to decide. Perhaps you Indians would have done better under British rule instead... Atleast the British can boast of some genuine accomplishments.
Punjabs status and history are not relevant to Kashmir as its status is a settled matter.
When intransigence, violent repression, deception and lies are employed to swindle millions of people out of their rights, a struggle whether peaceful or violent is inevitable. Ironic that you, a peole who trumpet your own freedom struggle now act like imperialists yourself.
Kashmir status vis a vis India is no different from that off Punjab, Balochistan, Sindh etc. These areas were also once considered part of the greater Indian subcontinent, and today are part of an independent state. Hence, there is no reason for anyone to be concerned with what YOU consider to be "Indian" or not Indian, least of all the Kashmiris themselves.
And if in the end you continue this nonsensical and childish refrain of Kashmir being "Indian" then dont be surprised if it results in more violence and conflict. Just dont call us the terrorists if you are the ones who are in illegal occupation. And dont try to fool yourself, you know the only reason you have any claim to Kashmir is through your Army. Take the Army away and your entire claim goes out the window.
that you have to defer to the tired old line of "Kashmir being Indian" only demonstrates how you have no argument left to make. The Indian stance on the issue is bankrupt. you really have no legs to stand on.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
You and Arundhati seem to be the only people left in India willing to speak the truth. I thought Pakistanis were pig headed, but when it comes to Kashmir, Indians seem to have turned off their higher brain function entirely.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
Simple. When in a referandum the majority of people in Kashmir say they want to join India is the day you can say with confidence that the people of Kashmir have choosen to be Indian. Until then, you have no basis on which to make such claim beyond wishful thinking.
What is best for them is not for you to decide. Perhaps you Indians would have done better under British rule instead... Atleast the British can boast of some genuine accomplishments.
Punjabs status and history are not relevant to Kashmir as its status is a settled matter.
When intransigence, violent repression, deception and lies are employed to swindle millions of people out of their rights, a struggle whether peaceful or violent is inevitable. Ironic that you, a peole who trumpet your own freedom struggle now act like imperialists yourself.
Kashmir status vis a vis India is no different from that off Punjab, Balochistan, Sindh etc. These areas were also once considered part of the greater Indian subcontinent, and today are part of an independent state. Hence, there is no reason for anyone to be concerned with what YOU consider to be "Indian" or not Indian, least of all the Kashmiris themselves.
And if in the end you continue this nonsensical and childish refrain of Kashmir being "Indian" then dont be surprised if it results in more violence and conflict. Just dont call us the terrorists if you are the ones who are in illegal occupation. And dont try to fool yourself, you know the only reason you have any claim to Kashmir is through your Army. Take the Army away and your entire claim goes out the window.
that you have to defer to the tired old line of "Kashmir being Indian" only demonstrates how you have no argument left to make. The Indian stance on the issue is bankrupt. you really have no legs to stand on.
referendum is not gonna happen so forget it.
i'm more practical than whimsical. Kashmir issue is NOT gonna be solved until both parties sit together and talk. if anyone thinks that Kashmir can be had by putting pressure is not being realistic. 'Pressure tactic' hasn't worked in 60+ years and it will NOT work...EVER!
at best, Kashmir can be given autonomous status where India will retain the defense, foreign affairs and internal security. if Kashmiris do NOT agree then too bad, they will be suffering for a long time. they must realize that cessation from India is NOT possibility. they should come to the realization that it's in their best of interest to agree to a 'special status' and move on.
Kashmiris do NOT need to involve the 'THIRD' party because it's internal matter with India. The Raja at that time had ONLY two LEGAL options and he legally chose to stay with India.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
u know as well as I do that your entire stance on Kashmir is bankrupt, you have no stance. Its morally and ethically bankrupt. As long as you know you have lost on this topic and your entire claim is through illegal occupation im fine with that. that was the whole point of this exchange, to refute the claim the voting equates to accepting India. That is completely false, and completely baseless. has no grounding in reality.
There will be no peace so long as India doesnt change its overall stance. There arent two parties, there are three.
Kashmir is not an integral part of India until it was made so by a decree by your govt. And so long as you are intransigent on the issue, there will be instability in the region and no progress will be made.
And no, Kashmiris have not accepted India, regardless of what you perceive.
PS. Your raja issue. India has set a precedence under which the wishes of the Rulers are irrelevant:
-
The State of India invaded Hyderabad Deccan (among other smaller states) despite the Nizam not formerly ceding control of his state. Thus why would the Ruler of Kashmir have any say on which state Kashmir should join while the Nizam does not? So India’s claim that the Ruler signed over rule to them is invalidated by Indias own actions in Hyderabad.
Annexation of Hyderabad - Wikipedia -
Nehru among others only accepted the accession to India pending a formal Referendum to ascertain the wishes of the people of Kashmir. That of course never happened.
So India itself undermined the authority of the state rulers by accepting one where it served its purpose and invading the other when it suited it. So Indias entire conduct on the matter has been deceitful and full of double standards.
So there goes that argument…
In the end, India should consider itself lucky it has a space at the negotiating table. And that to only because it has an army which it uses to force itself on all parties involved.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
Then stop responding because we have nothing more to discuss. Like I said, at the very least, dont try to fool anyone with this they voted so they now accept India nonsense. You know as well as I do that your entire stance on Kashmir is bankrupt, you have no stance. Its morally and ethically bankrupt. As long as you know you have lost on this topic and your entire claim is through illegal occupation im fine with that. This is why I laugh every time I hear people claim Indians are "peaceful" and "Democratic." Its a load of horse manure.
may be both of us should atop because we may agree to disagree. :) you are entitles to your opinion and analysis so do i.
so, you decide that i lost? well, i'm not here to have a match so there is no question of losing or winning. if you think you have won then yeh jeet aapko mubaarak hai. :)
we are what we are and we do NOT need anyone's approval.
Re: Recod turn-our in J&K polls..
^ can't argue with your logic. @Med911