Do you people agree with the rebuilding process of Pakistan team?? Very frankly I don’t. Players who performed well in the world cup were dropped and some who didn’t perform too well were still retained. Why?? What really is the rebuilding process? The PCB and the selection committee say they are building the team for the next world cup. Does that mean its ok to loose every series in the middle?? Is the world cup worth that much?
Then we have funny statements coming from PCB chairman and chief selector. They have both on different occasions said that the doors are not shut for the senior players and they can make a comeback. Well what was the reason of dropping them in the first place? Saeed Anwar was coming back in magnificent form with century and 40 odd not out in his last tow innings why was dropped? Wasim Akram bowled better then every other Pakistani bowler why was he dropped? We all know Waqar is still better then the likes of Gul and Shabir Ahmad why was he dropped. Wouldn’t it be better to polish the young players along with the greats one by one instead of filling the team with youngsters?
Inzimam was dropped and he should have been but while Saeed was dropped Youhana and Younis retained their place only because they were still young enough to play the next world cup. Wouldn’t it have been better to drop either Youhana or Younis or even both of them and try some new players? Saeed could have played a mentor kind of role for them. In the mean time it would have out pressure on Youhana and Younis to show something in the domestic circuit to get their place back. As it is right now Youhana knows he has a permanent place in the side. I have no doubt about his talent and class but I think the players should always know that they will loose their position in the side if they perform badly.
Saqlain was dropped without even getting a proper chance of playing in the WC matches. Does the PCB and selection committee really think Kaneria is a better spinner then Saqlain? Saqlain could also have helped polish Shoaib Malik and in Saqlain we would have a strike bowler. Right now with Shoaib going for county and Sami unfit we don’t have any strike bowlers. Thanks to PCB and their selection committee.
Exactly LH. Rebulding process means that you combine a mixture of both young and new players and polish those players. But somehow, the PCB thinks "rebuilding process" means you just put 8 brand new players out in the field and let them learn. Had Saeed, Wasim or Waqar, etc been in the team right now, these youngsters would have learned a lot more than they have so far.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yaasir: *
Exactly LH. Rebulding process means that you combine a mixture of both young and new players and polish those players. But somehow, the PCB thinks "rebuilding process" means you just put 8 brand new players out in the field and let them learn. Had Saeed, Wasim or Waqar, etc been in the team right now, these youngsters would have learned a lot more than they have so far.
[/QUOTE]
if saeed, wasim, waqar were still around, these youngster would'nt play. and the seniors who got dropped are more then welcome to come to camp to teach the youngster about playing. they don't actually need to be in the team. and again, this rebuilding had to be done sooner or later. i prefer it to be done sooner. wasim would be 40 at next world cup, waqar 37/38, and saeed would be 38. please don't tell me that they can help us then. Unless 2 straight horrendous world cup is your cup of tea.
I would rather lose with a young and inexperienced team than losing with an old experienced that who prefers politics over efforts.. We had had all these superstars for last 4 years and we won absolutely nothing except few Sharjah Cups here and there. Now we have atleast a young team that is willing to learn and improve, that puts 110% effort in every game, without any politics. If they continue this effort, they will only improve and get better.
Lahori I agree I thanks for starting a thread on this … I was going to …
There a number of problems I have with this so called “rebuilding”. As I have said in one of my earlier posts I see no captain for this “rebuild” team. After a successful “rebuilding” process who is going to lead this team? Are they planning to invite me ?
By PCB’s standards of preparation for the world cup 2007, if they are grooming youngsters for all the positions then why not the captain and why not the wicket keeper? In cricket captain makes a hell of a difference. An ordinary bunch with no high profile stars, the South Africans can were a force to recon with due to the leadership of Hasie Cronje? There is no point talking the evident, Steve Waugh and his effect on the Australians and Gangualy does make a difference to the other wise impotent Indians? Not to mention Stephan Fleming and Nasir Hussian, how they have used their limited resources to lethal effect. In my view a good captain is 40% of the cricket team.
If the excuse is that there is no one ready to take up captaincy right now then no one will be there 2 years from now or one year from now. The harsh reality is that there is no player who exhibits his captaincy material and has his place in the side. So if the PCB policy is “throw then in the water and they will learn” they why not thrown in the captaincy as well on some one and let him makes his mistakes now and learns rather than a year form now.
Another issue that bothers me is how it seems some of the players are not being treated fairly because our coach Mr. Miandad prefers the young players over them. I think neither the coach nor any players, senior or junior, should forget that they play for Pakistan.
Selection ought to be performance based. If a player is fit and performing then why discard him. Australia brings on most of their batsman once they are mature mostly over 25. Hayed and Lehman just to name two. Thus I feel Saleem Elahi not a fav of mine but looking at his performance he should be playing right now. The way he was performing he is better than Hafiz and Taufeeq Umer and yet where I feel age is becoming a problem is a Rashid Latif. He seems to get injured in every other match. Is age effecting his reflexes ?
If Saeed Anwar was fit he should have been considered. He is the only batsman I see who can play long innings, anchor the inning and most capable batsmen Pakistan had to rotate strike and he is good at talking and giving confidence to the youngsters. In my view they could have used Saeed Anwar sparingly. They could have him against better oppositions [South Africa tour] and then against oppositions like Bangladesh they could have both young openers. [But then he is my fav… so you might think as I biased suggetion]
Saqlian once called the best off spinner is not even called to the training camp ? Mushtaq Ahmed is not considered, why?
Inzamam is back in the team but if he does not perform will he be dropped again ? Does the rebuild process and the re-builders even think about Youhana not living up to his potential?
exactly, I agree with you fully :k: Rebulding process means that the yougsters learn as fast they can. Yes the youngsters are learnign a lot right now, but had someone like Saeed or Wasim been in the team to guide them, trust me, they would have learned a lot more by now. PCB uses the excuse of the WC for everything, yes WC is a big tournament, but its not everything, there is many others tournaments which the team needs to perform well.
please do tell us how they are supposed to “guide” us. and when i meant world cup i meant that’s the benchmark where we should have a solid team with future stars. I think you perfectly know what i am talking about. but if you don’t then let me make it a little “easier” for you. pakistan should have a good team by september 18, 2005. do you get it now. by world cup i did’nt mean they are solely preparing for world cup but what i meant was i would like to go to world cup with the new established team. by the way, are you ever happy with anything that goes on in pakistan or do you hold on to this belief that “everything is rotten in pakistan” philosophy. It is sad how even after winning sharjah, going to the final in sri lanka, battling firingis in england and coming away with a unfortunate series loss, and winning the first two tests against bangladesh while doing it with 80% of cricketers who has never played international cricket ever before, you guys are still not happy. Am i happy that after years of dominating cricket world we are now going through the pains of a rebuilding phase. Ofcourse not. But i damn well know that youngsters are getting there. You just rip away at these players for not developing quick enough. GIVE THEM A CHANCE. If you show 1/4 the support for pakistan cricket team that you show hindian movies, maybe, just maybe, you will be able to say in two years that we have the best team in the world.
i totally agree with Rana....we need to give them a chance.....
we should now forget about our seniors...they were and are a legend...but now its time for the new youngsters to play...wasim is undoubtedly the world best fast bowler....the best that world has ever produced and i dont think if we will be able to see such talent in future........but he cant play forever.....
as for the dropping out of the senior players, i think it is more than fare....coz they are not gonna carry till the next world cup....
saeed is retired....afridi doesnt deserve to be called a cricketer....waseem is ill (i wish him good health)....imzmam, yohanna, azhar, razzaq, younis khan, shoaib malik, shoiab akhtar, latif, saqlian, sami...all r there in the team...they need to lead the youngsters to new heights.....
please do tell us how they are supposed to "guide" us. and when i meant world cup i meant that's the benchmark where we should have a solid team with future stars. I think you perfectly know what i am talking about. but if you don't then let me make it a little "easier" for you. pakistan should have a good team by september 18, 2005. do you get it now. by world cup i did'nt mean they are solely preparing for world cup but what i meant was i would like to go to world cup with the new established team. by the way, are you ever happy with anything that goes on in pakistan or do you hold on to this belief that "everything is rotten in pakistan" philosophy. It is sad how even after winning sharjah, going to the final in sri lanka, battling firingis in england and coming away with a unfortunate series loss, and winning the first two tests against bangladesh while doing it with 80% of cricketers who has never played international cricket ever before, you guys are still not happy. Am i happy that after years of dominating cricket world we are now going through the pains of a rebuilding phase. Ofcourse not. But i damn well know that youngsters are getting there. You just rip away at these players for not developing quick enough. GIVE THEM A CHANCE. If you show 1/4 the support for pakistan cricket team that you show hindian movies, maybe, just maybe, you will be able to say in two years that we have the best team in the world.
[/QUOTE]
For God sakes, have some manners if god gave you some and stop mixing sports with entertainment. We are just discussing different viewpoints, therefore it makes no god damn sense to bring in hindi movies. And Im not saying your wrong about the rest of your statement, we both just have different views about the Pakistani Cricket Team.
For God sakes, have some manners if god gave you some and stop mixing sports with entertainment. We are just discussing different viewpoints, therefore it makes no god damn sense to bring in hindi movies. And Im not saying your wrong about the rest of your statement, we both just have different views about the Pakistani Cricket Team.
[/QUOTE]
jeez, stop crying bacchay. Yes you are absolutely right. We have different viewpoints but the difference is I back it up with stats and whatnot. you on the other hand say something stupid and then cry like a baby when someone calls you out.
Rana chanda phir wohi purani harkatain. This world is not perfect and people have different views. Just relax and take a chill pill. The bottom line is players like Wasim and Waqar are still better then Gul and Shabir then why were these players dropped. Better yet why was Wasim Akram dropped. It had nothing to do with his performance, which was much better then other Pakistani bowlers. Saqalain barley played in the wordl cup, yet he got axed.
PCB is a horrible organization with no planning. They have made blunders over the years and they continue to do so. Just look at the team announced for the 3rd test match. Saaed Bin Nasir's name has been dropped...without giving the guy one chance. Why???? What was the point of putting his name in the team in the first place. What kinda rebuilding is that. They could have rested Younis or Inzi and YoYo to give these youngsters a chance. Similarly Misbah's name is also out. He played on inning in the only test he got selected for and now he is out. This is what you call rebuilding???
Saqlain is called back now. Why??? First of all why was he dropped in the first place. He is young enough to make it through to the next world cup. People were once predicting him to be the future Pakistan captain. And hell he has an impeaccable record. Just because Waqar didnt know how to utilize him, and he played a couple of matches here and there he lost his place in the squyad. Now as Shoaib is gone and we dont have a strike bowler lets bring Saqlain back.
As far as Mr Rana saying he has stats to back his theories up all I have to say is dont even go there. The seniors who were dropped from the team after the world cup have stats that will make your stats look like a joke. Players who had given their life to Pakistan cricket. People who had made Pakistan and Pakistani's proud with their performace. And what did they get. A swift kick in the butt. But yeah its gotta be fair in your eyes as I guess your sole purpose here is to be an advocate for PCB & Amir Sohial.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by LahoriMunda: *
Rana chanda phir wohi purani harkatain. This world is not perfect and people have different views. Just relax and take a chill pill. The bottom line is players like Wasim and Waqar are still better then Gul and Shabir then why were these players dropped. Better yet why was Wasim Akram dropped. It had nothing to do with his performance, which was much better then other Pakistani bowlers. Saqalain barley played in the wordl cup, yet he got axed.
PCB is a horrible organization with no planning. They have made blunders over the years and they continue to do so. Just look at the team announced for the 3rd test match. Saaed Bin Nasir's name has been dropped...without giving the guy one chance. Why???? What was the point of putting his name in the team in the first place. What kinda rebuilding is that. They could have rested Younis or Inzi and YoYo to give these youngsters a chance. Similarly Misbah's name is also out. He played on inning in the only test he got selected for and now he is out. This is what you call rebuilding???
Saqlain is called back now. Why??? First of all why was he dropped in the first place. He is young enough to make it through to the next world cup. People were once predicting him to be the future Pakistan captain. And hell he has an impeaccable record. Just because Waqar didnt know how to utilize him, and he played a couple of matches here and there he lost his place in the squyad. Now as Shoaib is gone and we dont have a strike bowler lets bring Saqlain back.
As far as Mr Rana saying he has stats to back his theories up all I have to say is dont even go there. The seniors who were dropped from the team after the world cup have stats that will make your stats look like a joke. Players who had given their life to Pakistan cricket. People who had made Pakistan and Pakistani's proud with their performace. And what did they get. A swift kick in the butt. But yeah its gotta be fair in your eyes as I guess your sole purpose here is to be an advocate for PCB & Amir Sohial.
[/QUOTE]
arguing with you is like arguing with a wall. and yes, RIGHT NOW wasim and waqar is better then shabbir and gul. but then again, imran was better then wasim and waqar when they came along. so going by your theory, we should've never included them in the team when imran was running around. and don't tell me anything about saqlain, he was given a rest and now he is back. what is the problem. I guess you want to rest yoyo, inzi, younis and run the risk of going into the record book as the first team to lose against bangladesh in a test match. and yes i do have the stats to back up my claim. look at the WIN-LOSS COLUMN. the only thing that matters. you will see what i am talking about. You are absolutely right, i do defend the PCB and Amir Sohail. You know why, they have not given me a reason to do otherwise. Trust me, if we lay egg against the remainding bangladesh tour, the SA tour, and NZ tour, I will be the first to criticize them.
LM, Yasir yes Wasim, Waqar, Saeed and others were dropped in name of "rebuilding". From all the dropped ones, I think Saeed was totally unjustified as he was the best performer from our side. I think we are heading in right direction, even though I don't like our pace attack w/o Ws but still we've got to go thru the painful phase of finding and building upon new foundation.
If old stars were to train, they should have picked youngsters more often and train them. See how long Sami stayed on sidelines, why?
Lahori dost :) once in a while there comes a stage whn every team has to move on and start banking on youngsters. I miss all the greats aka Wasim payee, Wicky the great, Saeed Anwar but they cannot play forever. I also think they Waqar can still contribute to pakistan cricket as a bowler or as a bowling coach. Wasim on this day can still cause any one trouble with his bowling. But for how long can they stay in the team??
Youhana and Younis are potential captain of Pakistan team, specially younis khan. But they cannot make one of them captain when they both arent consistent enough with the bat to win the trust and comand of the younger players. Rashid Latif has so far managed to earn the respect of younger players, i know he cannot last for long but i also know that he wont stay in the team when his form drops which hasnt happened. We all can pick points like 'oh why Rashid isnt playing any wicket keeper' oh why saeed bin nasir wasnt played and dropped' etc etc. But we must have patience and look for the future. You know what.. I love to see pakistani team won against teams like Aus, SA consistently but for that they will have to learn it the hard way. i.e. lose some Tough mathces against these teams. After that i can assure you that this young team has in it to make it to the top and most importantly *stay at the top *. Its difficult to make it to the top but its ultra-difficult to retain that position. This is what makes Australian team soooo successful, they want other teams to earn that position as they did. and they wont let any match go.
We already have observed that our ODI team has found a nucleus of players that can carry thier journey to the top. Regarding test matches, we will see against SA if thats true for those as well or not, coz BD well i dont know.... Real test will be against SA.
Time for short term fixes is over, we need long term ones :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by saby: *
Lahori dost :) once in a while there comes a stage whn every team has to move on and start banking on youngsters. I miss all the greats aka Wasim payee, Wicky the great, Saeed Anwar but they cannot play forever. I also think they Waqar can still contribute to pakistan cricket as a bowler or as a bowling coach. Wasim on this day can still cause any one trouble with his bowling. But for how long can they stay in the team??
Youhana and Younis are potential captain of Pakistan team, specially younis khan. But they cannot make one of them captain when they both arent consistent enough with the bat to win the trust and comand of the younger players. Rashid Latif has so far managed to earn the respect of younger players, i know he cannot last for long but i also know that he wont stay in the team when his form drops which hasnt happened. We all can pick points like 'oh why Rashid isnt playing any wicket keeper' oh why saeed bin nasir wasnt played and dropped' etc etc. But we must have patience and look for the future. You know what.. I love to see pakistani team won against teams like Aus, SA consistently but for that they will have to learn it the hard way. i.e. lose some Tough mathces against these teams. After that i can assure you that this young team has in it to make it to the top and most importantly *stay at the top *. Its difficult to make it to the top but its ultra-difficult to retain that position. This is what makes Australian team soooo successful, they want other teams to earn that position as they did. and they wont let any match go.
We already have observed that our ODI team has found a nucleus of players that can carry thier journey to the top. Regarding test matches, we will see against SA if thats true for those as well or not, coz BD well i dont know.... Real test will be against SA.
Time for short term fixes is over, we need long term ones :)
[/QUOTE]
Laiken yaar, since it is a rebulding process, and they want to try out with an all out young team, then why is Rashid still the captain? Im not saying he has done a bad job, but there is no way he can last till WC 2007. And as of now, I see absoultly no one in the team that can lead the team well. Youhana is just way to shy, Younis Khan is yet to prove that he is capable of playing long innings, and the rest of the players are just tooo young to be even vice-captain. I do agree with the rebulding process but I think PCB has just not approched in the right way.
take a look at the times who went thru this process a little earlier.....Australia and India (how many indian players in the team today played the 96 or 99 world cup).....n Australia....they evern kicked out steve waugh......and still these two got to the finals of the world cup.
as far as pakistans performence against bangladesh is concerned.....BD played well, theyre improving. They score 290+ against the australian bowlers on australian tracks. Playing in Pak is easier for them(the pitches)....they improving with the new coach n management!!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rana no.1: *
arguing with you is like arguing with a wall. and yes, RIGHT NOW wasim and waqar is better then shabbir and gul. but then again, imran was better then wasim and waqar when they came along. so going by your theory, we should've never included them in the team when imran was running around. and don't tell me anything about saqlain, he was given a rest and now he is back. what is the problem. I guess you want to rest yoyo, inzi, younis and run the risk of going into the record book as the first team to lose against bangladesh in a test match. and yes i do have the stats to back up my claim. look at the WIN-LOSS COLUMN. the only thing that matters. you will see what i am talking about. You are absolutely right, i do defend the PCB and Amir Sohail. You know why, they have not given me a reason to do otherwise. Trust me, if we lay egg against the remainding bangladesh tour, the SA tour, and NZ tour, I will be the first to criticize them.
[/QUOTE]
Actually I could say the same for you that arguing with you is like arguing with a wall.
As far as your funny theory is concerned about Imran was better then Wasim and Waqar when they entered. Yes, he was but at that time we needed the bowlers and there was no other option. After the world cup we had a lot of options. Wasim and Waqar or only Wasim could have trained these youngsters. Polish them and then leave. Wasim was not included because of pure politics. Mr Tauqeer Zia's tussel with Imran Khan was the sole reason Akram lost his place in the side. Wasim was one of the better players in the world cup, could you give me one reason why Rashid was picked after the cup and Akram was not. I mean you are not going to tell me Rashid is a greater player are you??
As far as backing up the PCB and Amir is concerned, as we have had a long discussion about Amir Sohial lets leave that alone. Tell me one thing. Why is Tauqir Zia still the chariman of the board. After the world cup the seletion commitee was changed, the team was completely changed, the coach was changed, the captain was changed the whole world was turned upside down. How come Tauqir Zia was not axed.
Rebuilding process does not mean start a team from scratch, and hope for the best. We should have kept the senior players, atleast Saeed Anwar and Wasim Akram and polished the youngsters under their guidance. Now who is exactly is their to polish them. You seriously dont think Miandad can give better advice to Shoaib, Sami, Gul or Shabir then Wasim Akram. Miandad might be able to help batsmen out but we should have had either Waqar or Wasim to polish the bowlers.
Rebuilding has to be a continuous and steady state process as opposed to axing 5/6 senior players and expecting youngsters to deliver the same goodies. Take the example of Australia, nobody misses Mark Waugh or even Shane Warne. We should fix one problem at a time and not go after a brand new combination.
Secondly, please don't talk of rebuilding in the context of WC 2007. We have a lot of cricket between now and 2007 and we need to focus both on short-term and long-term goals. Each and every test or ODI series has its own importance. None of it should be treated non-seriously. The analogy is the same as that of our hockey team. When the decline started in the 80's, after losing every series or event, the management would say that they were planning for the XXX event (which would be 2/3 years ahead) and eventually they lost all the important titles one by one.
There is no assurance that youngsters being tried today will be fit and in good enough form till 2007. So the bottomline is that we should plan for 2007 but should not lose focus of today. Will it make any sense if we lose the Multan test and later claim that we were actually preparing for the 2007 cup.
Here is a question to the “Rebuilding gurus”. Why is Australia the World Champion not “rebuilding” their team for the next WC?
Ricky Ponting 29
Adam Gilchrist 32
Micheal Bevan 33
Mathew Hayden 32
Justin Lnager 33
Darren Leahman 33
Martin Love 29
Jimmy Mayer 29
Damian Martin 32
Andy Symonds 28
Andy Bichel 33
Glen MacGrath 33
Shane Warne 34
Jason Gillespie 28
Ian Harvey 31
Brett Lee 27
Brad Hog 32
Just think how old they will be by the time WC2007 arrives. When will they wake up and axe this old bunch ? ACB should request a consultant fom the PCB.