And Boss,
Mr. Johnson behind the zippers? You have a name for it too ? That says it all about you doesnt it? Dont pretend to be mr. Ideal, cuz ur not.
A correction though, Im not saying that guyz are totally free to jump on every girl cuz its the girlz fault, they should of course "lower their gaze" and be good boyz. Just showing to you both sides of the coin.
~Survival of the smartest~
Hmm I really dind't know If I was gonna post on this topic , very disturbing dialogue.In any case most cases of rape and incest are un reported in Pakistan .However it is also true if the culture wasn't so conservative the cases of sexsual abuse would be much higher .Some people simnply can't approach women .You also cut out cases of things like date rape etc .But the comparative difference doesn't mean it doesn't happen .In fact its worse cos its unreported ..look at that serial killer from lahore he was only caught when he confessed to killing so many children .
marital rape is not even considered a crime
in Pakistan , people use the Quran as a defense which is factually wrong .Please remember in any case ..whether shes wearin nothin , rape is rape in Islam ,the punishment is stoning to death .Straight and simple , no where does it say , well if she's naked or semi naked , then it ain't rape ..it most definitely is regardless .
I heard of one case that happened in Peshawar , this girl was involved with this guy , her parents wanted to get her married to someone else .He said he wouldnt leave her ..and he didn't he attacked her one day ..the family never reported the case ..and 'compromised ' with the boys family .Now for those who say she deserved it ....I say no ..a crime is a crime ..it's called the rule fo Law in a normal world ..you get punished when you cross a line ..God judges you by your niyyat ..man by your actions .
amigo perhaps you should first read what others have said before posting
You are talking bout how women dress
Lets forget the western society and their minis and tight shirts
In Pakistan, women dont wear mini skirts
women dont wear tight shorts or tight shirts
Still they get raped
I am astonished as to what drives the Men in Pakistan to rape these women when they are wearing shalwar kameez and duppattas
Pls explain this to me
[quote]
The chances of guyz hitting on girlz in purdah in contrary to girlz in tight body fit-revealing clothing is microspocal.
[/quote]
You are so wrong
not only wrong but clueless
I had a friend in college she used to wear a burqah and often told us what nasty comments men passed to her while in the market
i didnt believe her till the day we both went to the bazaar wearing the burqas
you dont know the cheapness of comments ppl pass
'buray main kya chupa rakha hay humain bhi dikhao'
blah blah blah you get the point
so your statment that men leave women in burqas alone is out of content
As for your post regarding Marital Rape
you are in no credible seat to pass any statment over how or what goes on in the bedrooms of Married ppl
until you yourself become a husband
The fact that you can sit there and twist the teachings of Islam to suit your lifestyle or your thoughts is not only disgusting but showing your jahiliat when regarding religion
Islam is a way of life
that doesnt mean any man should violate any woman and then say Its written in the Quran
Khaan Saab...
I think the actual reason for rape and other pervert behaviour in men is exactly opposite to what you have mentioned. In the deshi society back home, women are generally indoors, dont interact with men much and also dress themselves more than appropriately making sure not an inch of flesh is revealed.This ensures that a deshi man often will be turned on/excited by just getting a chance to interact with girls/women or by just a mere glimpse of a women body flesh. One reason why deshi men back home have a tendency to "fall in love" with every women they get close with(in college/office etc.) because for most of their early life they are devoid of female company.
While the same Deshis when they land in western countries will after a while stop noticing girls wearing shorts or those giving generous cleavage views or couples smooching in public because these things aren't "big deals" here.And if a good looking white female was to ask this deshi out for lunch, it would not send them "sex" signals like it would do back home.
I hope I made some sense.
[This message has been edited by chilli (edited June 21, 2001).]
chilli, the solution to what ur saying has been given to us by Islam itself. Marriage, as it protects ur chastity. Then this curiosity your mentioning should be satisfied and its then also within the boundaries of what is considered to be lawful.
Hope Im able to convey my thoughts in an understanding manner.
~Survival of the smartest~
kohalic!! my frienden, I was asking about facts that is why rape of women occur and not if it happens or not. I have heard similar stories that a 9 year old kid raping an eleven year old girl but WHY? If a 90 year old woman is raped then why you want to associate that rape event to her personal exposed body parts but not the prevalent propensity of male to do that act under the influence of general social behaviour.
Anchal, I have already mentioned above that I am not interested to discuss child rape, marital rape or male rape etc. You have got a right to discuss it somewhere else. Thanks
Reasons for rape in the desi society is again the same. Pornographic material (or art as some would put it) is available freely in our culture and the limited purdah is keeping a cap on the atomic bomb of rape.
Boss, what do you know about flames? u cold storage! huh 
NYAhmadi, the point I was trying to get across is that porn is an extreme form of exposed body parts and hence there is a link between rape and the “different dress”. Are you sure that a man just wants to prove that he is stronger than a woman? but why
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif
is he not physically stronger anyway so what he has to prove? The lower rate of rape in different parts of the world is the result of proportion of “porn” (i.e. from exposed body parts to the extreme hardcore pornography). Else, what is different between Scotland and England that differenticates their rape frequency. What’s the difference between Pakistan and India where the rate of rape is not comparable at all. Would you say men in Pakistan are less powerful than Indian men. neah, I don’t buy that. You might say that everything is hush hush in Pakistan but yet it’s not as bad as it’s in India. No?
chilli bhai, it’s funny you say that coz how would you explain the white ppl’s behaviour in their own country if you think that less deshi ppl commit rape when they see more exposed body parts. I think reasons for their less involvement in anything from politics to entertainment including rape is their financial situation which keeps them away from all these activites. I know a few hindu friends who are far better than muslims who don’t drink, don’t eat pork and don’t even think about going out with a girl or looking at them with bad intention. A shayar once said “majbooriooN nay kayee farishtay banaye heiN” . Few of the lucky one’s who don’t have the financial problems, they are involved in anything and everything and yet there are a minority who had a better upbringing regardless of being hindu or muslim don’t think about going out with a gori anyway.
I'm reading this thread for the first time today and I'm not really surprised to see, that most of you are getting very emotional here.
IMHO, there might be some exceptional cases, where the way a woman dresses might be the motive for the rapist. But Anchal has given us a whole bunch of examples, where it's definitely not the case. Even if a woman wears revealing clothes and she's raped, it doesn't have to be the reason.
I have no idea, what goes through the mind of a rapist, why he actually rapes somebody. Is it just to have sex and he can't get it without being violent? Is it the desire to have full control over a person? Is it a mental illness? I think I will never understand the motivation behind it, maybe it varies from case to case.
But what I know is, that raped women are treated very badly, especially in Pak/India although it's not their fault. Why do people still not see them as victims and put the blame on them? It's the rapist that did it to her and he should be the one to be punished, not the raped girl/woman.
Umer, the Pakistani Brain of Austria
Well Well, i believe the thread says
"REASONS FOR FORCED RAPE"
Why is everyone arguing about or trying to get a mental picture of a rapist.
All of u r right in some aspect, and all points need credibility, but completely ousting each others point is ridiculous.
A rapist can be a sexual pervert or a mental pervert, doesnt really natter.
A very major reason for rape of women is either they try to be James Bond and pose as if they are fearless until they come across a mental pervert who does the dirty deed on them.
Another reason is psyche of the rapist. Usually sexual perverts look for innocent and harmless women where comes the case of over powering ur opponent to fantasize ur sexual fantasy.
Lastly, cases of vendetta or obstinance where the rapist needs to some harm and uses rape as a means to execute it.
Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'
Please read for general knowledge
*Women who report rape or sexual assault by strangers fare marginally better than victims of domestic violence.
Victims who are persistent and determined sometimes succeed in registering complaints. However, reflecting the institutionalized gender bias that pervades the criminal justice system, women alleging rape are often disbelieved and treated with disrespect, indeed harassed outright, by officials at all levels.
They must contend with abusive police, forensic doctors who focus on their virginity status instead of their injuries, untrained prosecutors, skeptical judges, and a discriminatory and deficient legal framework. “Only the most resilient and resourceful complainants can maneuver such hostile terrain,” said Burney, “And those who do seldom see their attackers punished.”*
http://www.hrw.org/press/1999/oct/pakpr.htm
Obviously the types of clothes we wear doesnt really matter.
[This message has been edited by Mariah (edited June 21, 2001).]
There was a program on ABC recently about Pakistani women and Crimes committed against them
They showed a few women in jail who were raped by Men
and when these women reported the rape the Men changed the story and blamed the women for coming on to them
so the women were serving jail sentences and the Rapists were roaming free most probably making other women their targets
Now thats SAD
Plus talking bout the Title of this Thread
Reasons of Forced Rape of Women
My dear Rape is always Forced
never voluntarily
[quote]
Originally posted by aMiGo:
**Its so astonishing to see u ladies say that "even if we ladies run around in bikinis you guyz should behave". Wha?? That day will never come. And if such a day comes, than something would be terribly wrong.
The concept of freedom you have has been put into ur brains by the west. Why dont you ladies take some responsibility and dress properly, so that the guyz dont have excuse to come on to you. And beleive me, they wont if ladies dress the way Islam has told us to do so. The chances of guyz hitting on girlz in purdah in contrary to girlz in tight body fit-revealing clothing is microspocal.
**
[/quote]
Are you then saying that women should take responsibility for their actions while men need not do the same?
If a woman is dressed provocatively, does that make it okay for the man to rape her? Does her behaviour justify his?
I don't think so. Though I agree that there are different classes of men, some that have control over their actions and many that don't, I still think that the responsibility does not lie solely on the woman.
And for khan_sahib,
I'm anxious to read your reply to Anchal's comments.
[quote]
Originally posted by Muzna:
** Are you then saying that women should take responsibility for their actions while men need not do the same?
If a woman is dressed provocatively, does that make it okay for the man to rape her? Does her behaviour justify his?
I don't think so. Though I agree that there are different classes of men, some that have control over their actions and many that don't, I still think that the responsibility does not lie solely on the woman.
And for khan_sahib,
I'm anxious to read your reply to Anchal's comments.
**
[/quote]
So Muzna do u wear a bikini? How come people at a Pakistani beach dont wear bikini's, is it because they dont have thing to show off or is it because Pakistani males dont cast their eyes on their assets?
Please reply to every question.
Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'
Muzna Baji, Why?
Anyhow, I don't know what some people are on about esp. Mariah and Anchal. I have said it earlier that I am not interested in these "general facts" but I want the discussion to be revolved around the "proclivity of male to cause rape". I don't know what people want to prove with providing the facts that so many rape cases happened in Pakistan coz I can provide the whole database of cases in South Africa or the BBC report if people are interested to establish that indeed it does happen. It is a heinous crime so don't tell me this crap again coz I am getting fed up of reading it again and agin.
I didn't accuse women but rather the culture that creates an environment for potential rape and what are the reasons.
I wanted to confine the discussion to women who are subjected to rape and hence used the the term "Forced Rape" coz the reasons of Marital Rape would be totally different and I am not interested. I quote from the book which I mentioned earlier:
[quote]
If rape is defined as forced intercourse or attempts at forced intercourse, the problem of figuring out what exactly constitutes force remains. How does one measure it? What is the definition of intercourse? Does it include oral and anal intercourse, intercourse with a foreign object, or digital penetration, or is it defined only as ******l penetration by the penis? How much penetration is necessary to qualify as intercourse? How does one determine if an attempt at rape or some lesser sexual assault has occurred? How does one deal with the fact that the rapist and even the rape survivor quite often do not believe that a rape occurred, even when the incident matches the legal definition of rape? Many rapists, for example, do not consider that forcing intercourse on an unwilling woman qualifies as rape because they think the woman's "no" actually means "yes." Many women think they have not been raped when the perpetrator is their husband or lover, even though the law in most states defines such acts as rape.
[/quote]
Muzna Baji,
could you also give that famous "growing up" advice to some mentally under 18's to stick to the topic. Please :-D
[quote]
Originally posted by LooksCanKill:
** So Muzna do u wear a bikini? How come people at a Pakistani beach dont wear bikini's, is it because they dont have thing to show off or is it because Pakistani males dont cast their eyes on their assets?
Please reply to every question.
**
[/quote]
I can't speak for "Pakistani people" that don't wear bikinis .... but to answer your other question - no, I don't wear bikinis in public places.
I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make. Are you suggesting that because I don't do it other women should not do it either? I would have to disagree with that.
Well the point i'm making is that dress has to do with the root of this evil in our society.
Conservative societies dont face this problem as much as open socities do, yes i agree this isnt the sole cause of this evil but this is basically where it starts creepiong in and other vices alongwith it.
Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'
[quote]
Originally posted by khan_sahib:
*Muzna Baji, Why?
*
[/quote]
Why what khan_sahib? Why do I want to know what you have to say regarding Anchal's comments? Because she has opposed your opening statement that there is more rape where women are more exposed.
Perhaps I am getting lost or misinterpretting what you are saying because I don't see continuity in your arguments.
Muzna Baji, which argument? If you could stop these people sending the reports then I might be able to make some sense coz to me it has started to look like a political forum thread.
I had replied to Anchal earlier and I am not interested in establishing those facts and when did she prove that it happened more in pakistan. Are you sure?
[quote]
Originally posted by LooksCanKill:
**Well the point i'm making is that dress has to do with the root of this evil in our society.
Conservative societies dont face this problem as much as open societies do, yes i agree this isnt the sole cause of this evil but this is basically where it starts creepiong in and other vices alongwith it.
**
[/quote]
Conservative societies face as much as any open society or even more sooo, because it never comes out in open, perpetuators can get away with it. Most of the time victims lack courage to report it because they are afraid of the reprecussions by society and family and stigma that will be attached to their name for life..
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited June 21, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
** Conservative societies face as much as any open society or even more sooo, because it never comes out in open, perpetuators can get away with it. Most of the time victims lack courage to report it because they are afraid of the reprecussions by society and family and stigma that will be attached to their name for life..
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited June 21, 2001).]**
[/quote]
Yeah but the difference is people in the west dont take notice of their behaviour unless someone is getting hurt. It aint considered rape. Its so common their u dont prepare statistics for un reported cases.
But no matter what its more than it is in our society. Tell me are women getting raped in the Taleban era in Afghanistan, if not would you please explain why?
Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'