Reality of 786!

Society Religion & Philosophy
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:salam2:

There are some Muslims who have given certain numerical value for certain numerical Arabic words and when u adds this value u’ll get certain figures. Example: if u add word ‘B’ ‘S’ (complete bimsillah) and calculate it u’ll find the total number of it 786 another example: some pplz use the same method to calculate words named Muhammad :saw2:. The number is 92.

Whether this calculating method is right or wrong. There is not Sahi Hadeeth neither this mentioned in the verses of Qur’an which agree short-cut system. This sickness of numerical values and is presences are in various societies throughout all over the world and our brother and sister and using. May Allah SWT hum sb ko hidayat dain Ameen.

Let me explain out in another way. Here is the fact about 420. We use this number against person who is fraud. Here is the logic behind this number. If a person arrested and he/she goes to jail then Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and neighboring countries such as Myanmar’s court of law, will punish the fraud case under Government’s Penal Code of 420. So Penal Code 420 gives the punishments for fraud. Therefore 420 used as fraud, cheating and dishonestly including delivery of property.

Back to the topic. let say even we agree that the certain Arabic numerical numbers have certain meanings but logically speaking giving a particularly number by totaling the letters of that words and using it as short forms is illogical bcoz maybe the same number can be used even for good or bad.

So I think we Muslim should refrain writing 786 and also advice our brothers and sisters not to do/repeat the same for any Arabic word for Qur’an.

:jazak:

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Re: Reality of 786!

My take on this:
Nothing is haram unless it is explicitly mentioned. These numerals do not have religious significance, but their use is not wrongful.

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Re: Reality of 786!

khoji Bhai! could u please tell me how it use is not wrongful. Thanx.

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Re: Reality of 786!

I said this because one of the fundamentals of Islam is that we can not make anything wrongful on our own. This comes from Allah and his Prophet.

I am not saying that 786 MUST be used. If anyone does not like it then by all means stop using it. But we should not make a big deal out of it.

Just my two cents. khushi take, khushi no take.

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Re: Reality of 786!

Oky bhai! :salute: i got it now :smiley:

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Re: Reality of 786!

i dont understand why is it wrong? i mean if the arabic alphabets do have a numerical value and we sum them up and get their weight then what’s wrong in that?
say for instance the name XYZ has a numerical value of 10+11+12 , so the total weight for the name XYZ is 33…what’s harmful in this?

from yr post as i understand, is that you said that maybe some word/name/sentence has a value of 420 and that this number is used by some courts as a sentence given out to offenders, so then this number’s bad? or have i got it wrong?:hmmm:
if tht’s the case then we cant really do that, cause then there quite a few things in this world which for one person/group/nation is good and the same for another is bad. but we cant stop using/doing something just cause someone else uses it negatively? if one thing is good in way X then we should use as good, and if the same thing is bad in way Y then we should avoid using it in that way. discarding something that has no obvious harm does not sound right

am sorry if am not very clear

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:salam2: SN!

i dont understand why is it wrong? i mean if the arabic alphabets do have a numerical value and we sum them up and get their weight then what’s wrong in that?

If output weight of these compaired/oberved/used as name of Muhammad :saw2: or Bismillah or Allah SWT then it is totally wrong.

say for instance the name XYZ has a numerical value of 10+11+12 , so the total weight for the name XYZ is 33…what’s harmful in this?

there is only 1 harmful thing that pplz consider value of abc or xyz as Bismillah and give respect to these valuue and make their habbit to use it instead of using Bismillah. Moreover they paas this things to others to do the same.

**from yr post as i understand, is that you said that maybe some word/name/sentence has a value of 420 and that this number is used by some courts as a sentence given out to offenders, so then this number’s bad? or have i got it wrong?:hmmm: **

Sometime we used to call others ‘oye 420, yeh 420 kar raha hay, yeh to 420 banda hay etc’. What is my point here without knowing the fact (about 420) pplz r spreading it all over the world and same also 786 numb is used by mostly muslims pplz without knowing the real fact/reason behind this number.

if tht’s the case then we cant really do that, cause then there quite a few things in this world which for one person/group/nation is good and the same for another is bad. but we cant stop using/doing something just cause someone else uses it negatively? if one thing is good in way X then we should use as good, and if the same thing is bad in way Y then we should avoid using it in that way. discarding something that has no obvious harm does not sound right

rest u already said in your comments (green) :slight_smile:

am sorry if am not very clear

Aray seekhnay or sikhany me sorry kaise :cb:

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Re: Reality of 786!

i agree wid u lethal.....i dont believe in writing 786

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Re: Reality of 786!

wslm LK....i think i understand yr point

so then (in green) do u agree with that or think it's not really correct?

and then it just hit me that maybe we can use the numbers to let someone else knw that what we meant to be here( say 786 instead of Bismillah), so then when someone reads it, tehy knw it's meant to be Bismillah so they'll recite the whole of it(remind them perhaps?)
but if u write that in arabic, u'll have to be really careful, very very careful where u put that paper, in what state(paak/najis) u touch it, whom u give it to and all....u get what i mean?

like if it's in numbers then u knw what u have to recite(it acts as a reminder, sort of), and just in case that piece of paper lends in the wrong hands then u'd have that feeling, relief maybe that something so pure is not in the wrong hands..

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Using 786 for ‘Bismillah-ur-rahman-ur-raheem’ is perfectly fine, just like it is perfectly fine to write ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-ur-Raheem’ in Roman script, Arabic script, Chinese script, etc, etc, etc.

 Reason: We have two ways of expressing a thing.

One is by sound that we speak (make using vocal cord)
And
Other is by symbols that we write (that could be in any script, could be in numbers, of drawings).

Sound that we speak is constant, that is, spoken ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-ur-Raheem’ would sound more or less same all the time, whatever symbol used to write it.

Anyhow, when we write something in symbol than that symbol can take any form, and only those can read that symbol producing required sound who knows the symbol and can read the symbol (Know what sound that symbol is suppose to make).

For instance ... when writing ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’ in Roman script than symbol (or sequence of symbols) would be different then if one would write ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-ur-Raheem’ in Arabic script, Chinese script, Bangla script, Turkish script, etc. Those who can read/recognise the symbol, they would produce same sound whatever symbol is used to write ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-ur-Raheem’.

  In same way when a person writes ‘786’ they make a symbol and those who know what that symbol means, that is ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’, they would read that symbol correctly. Those who do not know what ‘786’ means, for them ‘786’ would be a meaningless symbol, just like those who cannot read Roman script than for them ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’ written in Roman script would be a meaningless symbol. If symbol becomes meaningless for those who do not know/recognise the symbol than it does not mean that to write a sound (sequence of sounds) using that symbol is wrong.

Similarly, those who know what ‘786’ means, for them they would read ‘786’ as ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-ur-Raheem’ producing same sound just like they would read ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-ur-Raheem’ if the sentence was written in Arabic script, Roman script, Chinese script, Bangla script, Turkish script, or whatever ... hence, writing ‘786’ for ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-ur-Raheem’ is perfectly fine.

As for those who cannot read/recognise ‘786’ than they cannot say that ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-ur-Raheem’ should not or cannot be written as ‘786’, just like they could not say that ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-ur-Raheem’ should not or cannot be written in Roman script, Chinese script, Bangla script, Turkish script, etc ... just because they could not read/recognise those scripts.

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Re: Reality of 786!

^good reasoning:phati:

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I do.

Better we use roman english to write/remaind or the best way we can write trasnlation of Bismillah. I agree what ur pointing but i’m afraid peoples will gonna make it habbit as already many of them done. Many of us now using ‘as’ As salam o Alycum or ‘ws’ wa alycum us salam.

Well incase it is our certificates/diploma’s degree then we’ll laminate it and keep in a save place with full care but alas! if it is bismillah or any qu’ran’s ayah we just want to rid it from b’coz we are failed to keep it in save place like our certificates/diploma etc. b’coz of thinking that maybe in najast state we’ll gonna touch it. Solution if very simple and thats we should keep ourselve in situation of wadu whole the time or refresh our wadu if required.

There is a narrative that a badawi (non-muslim) was scratched (removed) the name of Muhammad :saw2: from a slate. Allah SWT ki qudrat ke naam visible again on that slate and the badawi again scratched but the name visible again. The badawi tried repeatedly to scratch the names many many times but the name visible again and again and that badawi then approached to Prophet Muhammad :saw2: and embraced Islam. (i’ll try to find reference).

Purpose of above narrative is if replace of name 92 is written then i don’t think that badawi will gonna embrace islam.

Hope it is clear now :slight_smile:

:salam2:

Well i couldn’t find in any hadeeth neither in Qur’an where it is mentioned that 786 is perfectly fine to write neither i found that 786 sounds Bismillah. Keep in your mind these symbols never used by our Prophet Muhammad :saw2: neither by any companions nor by our four Imams :razi: :rahm: . Moroever its not mentioned in Qur’an also (as per my knowledge).

The symbols we learn to use in our uni is something difference. Here we are talking about the words of Allah SWT, the Qur’an, not about chemistry, physic or Bio. We can’t use symblos as Bismillah or as the name of Allah SWT.

In roman urdu or english or any other language. We should write Bismillah Not 786 or any symbols for it and this is wroth to write here if we learn how to write english, urdu, spanish, french or any other language then why don’t we learn how to write arabic?

on some point i agree but on rest No Bro.

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Brother :salam2:

We should not try to mould Islam according to own impaired understanding but should appreciate what Allah has created and what we use naturally to make our life easy. We should know that all languages are creation of Allah and that Allah has created these languages to make human communicate with each other. Similarly, all symbols (scripts) to write particular sound is also creation of Allah, who created them so that humans can write the sounds of what they communicate.

Further, there is no language of Allah as Allah is not dependent on any language. Allah has used Arabic to send message to Prophet (SAW) because language Prophet (SAW) used to use was Arabic. If Prophet (SAW) was sent in China and was using Chinese as his language then we would have had Quran in Chinese. Further, Quran came in sound not in written form, and it is people of that time who used symbols they knew (Arabic script) to write that sound in written form.

Anyhow, coming to your post:

Well, writing ‘Bismillah (Roman script)’ is symbol of a sound that only those can make when seeing this symbol who knows Roman script. Those who do not know Roman script, for them this word ‘Bismillah (Roman script)’ is meaningless symbol. Still, you wrote ‘Bismillah’ in Roman script and expected that I plus all on the forum would be able to read it properly as ‘Bismillah’ written in Arabic script. … So, how come you used that symbol Bismillah (Roman script) in your above post and expected that all on this forum would read that same as Bismillah written in Arabic script?

Well i couldn’t find in any hadeeth neither in Qur’an where it is mentioned that 'Bismillah (Roman Script) is perfectly fine to write neither i found that 'Bismillah (Roman Script) sounds Bismillah (Arabic Script). Keep in your mind these symbols never used by our Prophet Muhammad :saw2::razi: :rahm: . Moroever its not mentioned in Qur’an also (as per my knowledge). neither by any companions nor by our four Imams

Why symbols we learn to use in uni is something different than one Muslim learned (using 786 as Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem) much before they even knew single letter of Roman script … or scripts they learn today in University?

As for your saying that we should write Bismillah using symbol of any script but should not use symbol‘786’ to write ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raham’ … so why?

What is big difference between a symbol ‘786’ to produce sound ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raham’ or use Roman, Arabic or any other script to produce sound ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raham’?

Can you please show us any Quranic ayah or hadith that says that one can use Roman, Chinese, etc … or any script that is taught in university to write ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raham’ but should not use ‘786’ to write ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raham’ … a symbol that Muslim knows and learned much before they learned these scripts (Roman, Chinese, etc)?

Can you please show any hadith or Quranic verse that says what you mentioned above?

Anyhow, as for me and to most who know/recognise ‘786’ as ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raham’, when they see symbol ‘786’ and read ‘786’ they produce same sound when they read ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raham (Arabic script)’, and thus it is perfectly fine to write ‘786’ when intending to write ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Rahim’.

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:wsalam: Brother

I agree we shouldn’t try to mould Islam. Purpose of such kind of thread is just awareness about Islam. Here is some fact how Qur’an came in this world "The Qur’an is the literal word of God, which HE revealed to His Prophet Muhammad :saw2: through the Angel Gabriel. It was memorized by Muhammad :saw2: , who then dictated it to his companions. They, in turn, memorized it, wrote it down, and reviewed it witht he Prophet Muhammad :saw2: . Moroever, the Prophet Muhammad :saw2: reviewed the Qur’an with the Angel Gabriel once each year and twie in the last year of his life. From the time the Qur’an was revealed, until this day, there has always been huge number of Muslims who have memorized all of the Qur’an, letter by letter. Some of them have even able to memorize all of the Qur’an by the age of then. Not one letter of the Qur’an has been changed over the centuries.

The Qur’an, which was revelead fourteen centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientitists. This proves without doubt that the Qur’an must be the literal word of Allah SWT, revelead by Him to the Prophet Muhammad :saw2: , and that the Qur’an was not authored by Muhammad :saw2: or by any other human being. This is also proves that Muhammad :saw2: is truly a prophet sent by Allah SWT.

and what Allah SWT said about different races of peoples in Qur’an:

Brother! Writing Bismillah in roman script clearly understand-able and I said earlier if we write translation of Bismillah (if we r unable to use Arabic word in any reason) that would be much better but simply writing 786 means what? It just a number and some1 spread among us as referring to Bimsillah’s code. What I’m trying to say here that the Qur’an is Allah SWT words which spread in Arabic under the patronage of Prophet Muhammad :saw2: and we are guided/ordered to read it as it is and to pass as it to others.

The symbols we used to learn in uni is different b’coz those symbols are not the literal words of Allah SWT. This symbols used by us (an ordinary peoples). The ‘786, could be different in writing in other languages and it not sounds like ‘bismillah’. 786 is created by us and spread among muslims as it means ‘bimsillah’ same as ‘92’ for name of Muhammad :saw2: . Writing in roman Urdu ‘Bismillah’ or any other language will clearly shows ke we r referring to the Qur’an ayah ‘Bismillah’ and for the Muslims they know how it sounds (if they read Qur’an) moreover they will understand easily.

This is to worth to write here let say a Chinese write ‘bimsillah’ in Chinese. The Chinese can understand what he wrote but I’m not as I don’t know the language. But if this Chinese or any other Muslims Indian, paki, Bengali, American, Turkish, Nepal etc write in Arabic we all Muslims can understand very easily b’coz the Qur’an could be translated in any language but the Words of Allah SWT will remain in Arabic, and this what I’m trying to say/explain here ke write ‘Bismillah’ instead of 786 nothing more.

:jazak:

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^^^

Brother lethal kamikaze: I know how Quran was revealed to Prophet (SAW) and how it got written, so there is nothing to discuss about it, hence I am leaving that issue to come to current topic.

Coming to symbol ‘786’, I feel you did not read my post or did not try to understand what I wrote. So, please read my post carefully and try to understand it, then you will have no ambiguity.

I wrote that spoken word (Sound) is the language that we use to communicate with each other. These spoken words can be written using any symbol that others could understand … but other can only understand symbols if they know the script or recognise the symbol used.

‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’ is spoken words or sound in ‘Arabic language’ that has a meaning. Sound in Arabic ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’ can be translated into different languages and then it would sound differently. For instance … if we translate ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’ in English than it would sound ‘In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful’ … and here, both sound would be different.

Anyhow, we are not even talking about translation. We are talking about sound ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’ written using different symbol.

When we use Arabic script to write sound ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’ then symbol would be :bism:

Anyhow, same sound`:bism: can be written in Roman script and then symbol representing :bism: would be ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’… that means, both :bism: and ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’ would produce same sound by those who know/recognise the symbol.

Similarly same sound can be written in numerical code and then symbol representing :bism: would look like ‘786’ … that means, both :bism: and ‘786’ would produce same sound by those who know/recognise the symbol.

Thus, in whatever symbol a person write ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’, the sound when reading would be same … obviously, as long as the person reading know/recognise the symbol … and thus it does not matter what symbol is used to write ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’.

For instance, those who do not know Arabic script but know Roman script, they would not be able to read :bism: but would be able to produce correct sound if :bism: is written in Roman script or ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’.

On the other hand, those who do not know Arabic script and also do not know Roman script, but know numerical code (something most people could easily know/recognise), they would not be able to read (or could produce any sound) when they would see :bism: or ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’ but would easily read (produce correct sound) if they would see ‘786’.

Hence, ‘786’ is a valid symbol (numerical code) that most people could learn and recognise for ‘Bismillah-ur-Rahman-ur-Raheem’ = :bism: and there is nothing wrong in it.

As for you saying that ‘786’ is just a number and means nothing, then the statement you made also applies to any writing for those who do not know and cannot read something written. For instance :bism: would mean nothing (would be a meaningless figure) for a person who do not know Arabic script … and only those who know/recognise Arabic script would be able to read it producing right sound. Anyhow, those who know/recognise symbol :bism: they would be able to read it producing right sound. Similarly, those who know/recognise symbol ‘786’ would be able to read it producing right sound

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Re: Reality of 786!

I agree with you lethal, 786 is a numerical number and does not mean Bismillah, its an association people have made up. The script represent sounds, numbers do not.

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:salam2:

I read what u wrote earlier and agreed what u said but for ‘Bismillah’ or for any ayat of Qur’an, we shouldn’t use any numbers nor we can’t use it. The Qur’an is literal words of Allah SWT, our Prophet Muhammad :saw2:and His companions never used/referred it to any numbers so why we use/refer it to some codes/numbers. Translation (in any language) of Ayats of Qur’an is better then using some number codes like 786, 420, 111 etc.

I will be completey shock :eek: if a Muslim can’t read Qur’an or unable to read it b’coz it is written in arabic, but he/she can recognize/read ‘786’ as ‘Bismillah’.

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Re: Reality of 786!

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Re: Reality of 786!

numerical values like 786 r used in taweez. besides that numerology is a whole science. and even if people use it, what of it? its an individual thing isnt it. ever heard of abjad or ilm e jafar? remember the ayaats the prophet pbuh were instructed to recite to counter the magic. there was a definite numerical link there too. u dont pray 6 sunnat or 9 nafals or perform as many sajdas in namaz as u like. if things dont make sense to an individual then they shudnt be deemed as ''sickness''. and in case ur wondering, i dont use 786 as a replacement.

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inventing new things in islam isnt allowed regardless of individuallity

ps Islam isnt an idividual religion; it includes the whole ummah