Real Masiah Hazrat Isa(A.S) VS mirza ghulam ahmed

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Mirza Ghulam and the Real Messiah

We can learn from the Hadith of Nawas Bin Sam’an (R.A) which can be found in Muslim Shareef (the second most authentic book after the Holy Qur’ân) and from the Hadith of Abu Ummamah Al-Bahilee (R.A) which can be found in Ibn Majah, the following regarding the Promised Messiah:

  1. The Promised Messiah’s name is ‘Isa (A.S) and his mothers name was Maryam.
  2. The Mahdi and the Dajjal will have already appeared before his descension.
  3. He will descend from the heavens to the white minaret in the east of Damascus wearing two garments slightly dyed with saffron and his hands will be placed on the wings of two Angels.
  4. Every Kaafir (disbeliever) who smells his breath will die and his breath will reach as far as he can see.
  5. He will kill the Dajjal at the Eastern gate of Ludd.
  6. The barbarious tribe of Gog Magog will appear in his time and the promised Massiah will take the believers to mount Tur for their protection.
  7. He will elevate the Islamic religion by breaking the cross and putting an end to Christianity.
  8. The Jews and Christians will believe on him before his death.
  9. He will kill the pigs and the Christians consider Halal it to eat and non-Muslims will not have to pay tax.
  10. Wars will cease at his time, as everybody will be in complete agreement with one another.
  11. There will be so much wealth that the receiving of Sadaqa will be discarded as everybody will have enough wealth of his own.
  12. In his time, all harmful animals will be made harmless and the venom will be taken out from all venomous animals. A child will put his hand in a snake’s mouth and it will not harm him, a girl will be able to chase a lion away and it will not harm her.
  13. The earth will spout with vegetation and will produce fruits so abundantly that a large group of people will gather to eat a bunch of grapes or one pomegranate, and it will suffice them.
  14. From the Hadith of Abu Hurairah (R.A) in Muslim, we learn that the promised Messiah will perform Hajj and Umrah from a place called Rawha.
  15. From the Hadith of Abdullah Bin Amr (R.A) we learn that he will get buried next to the Holy Prophet ?.
    None of the above conditions were fulfilled by Mirza Ghulam. His name was Ghulam Ahmad and not ‘Isa, he was the son of Chiragh and not Maryam. The Mahdi and the Dajjal did not appear before him and thus there is no question in him killing Dajjal. He did not descend from the heavens nor did any Kaafir die from his breath.
    The tribes of Gog Magog did not appear in his time nor did the Jews and Christians believe in him before his death. He did not elevate Islam but insulted it by claming to be the Mahdi, the Messiah and a Prophet. He didn’t kill the pigs but enjoyed eating it. Wars did not cease in his time as the Muslims were struggling against the colonialists in India. The receiving of Sadqah was not discarded nor was venom taken out of venomous animals in his time. He never performed Hajj or Umrah and died in a toilet. I am sure by now you have easily come to the conclusion that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was not the promised Messiah the Mahdi or a Prophet, but was an impostor and a liar. His aim and purpose in life was to keep the colonialists happy, those who made him and nourished him with evil ideas to confuse and disunite the Muslims.

Ahmadiyyat/Qadiyaniat according to Allama Iqbal:

See What an Ex-Qadiyani/Ahmadi says about mirza ghulam ahmed:




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re: Real Masiah Hazrat Isa(A.S) VS mirza ghulam ahmed

Excellent Post >thumbsup:

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baaki baaton pe mien baad mien aaon ga…par zara Allama ko dekh lien…tum Allama ko quote karr rahe ho kabhi unka kuch parha bhi hai?

abb zara ghorr se parhna ye sabb kuch…

“The scope of my religious knowledge is very limited. I have spent most of my life studying western philosophy. This way of thinking is second nature to me. Consciously or unconsciously, this way of thinking influences my study of Islam. "
(Iqbal Nama Part I pg. 46,47. Published by Sheikh Muhammad Ashraf, Kashmiri Bazar, Lahore)

 
**Allama Iqbal, held in high esteem by our opponents, also called a ‘Muslim****Thinker’, lamented about the status of Ummah of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him). I t is painful to refer to them as the Ummah of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) because the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) represented what was good and wholesome and to refer to these people as associated with the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) is very uncomfortable. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) himself referred to them as “Their Ulema would be the worst creatures under the firmament of heaven.” He avoided calling them as my Ummah. When talking about his people he said: “The Ulema of my Ummah would be at par with the Israelite prophets.” Muslims of today may consider themselves as the Ummah of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) but their deeds and actions speak otherwise.**
 
**Allama Iqbal writes: There is an uproar that the Muslims have been wiped out. “We wonder if Muslims ever existed anywhere on earth.” He continues addressing the Muslims: “What are you? Your lifestyle is that of Christians. Your culture is that of Hindus. Even the Jews would be put to shame by your behavior. You call yourselves Sayyed, Mirza, Afghan. You may be everything but tell me - are you Muslim?** 
(Jawabe Shikwa Bange Dara First Edition Sept. 1924 and 12th Edition August 1948 page 226).

Allama Iqbal, their own ‘Thinker of Islam’ says: “If you want to see a true expression of the Muslim character, its culture and civilization, you will see it in the people of Qadian.”
(The Muslim Community - A Sociolo gical Study: by Allama lqbal page 23).

 
**As far as I have understood the belief of Jamaat Ahmadiyya their view that Jesus (peace be on him) died like any other mortal and that the Second Coming of Messiah means a new person in his image and spirit will be born, appears to be reasonable and carries merit.”** 
(Allama lqbal’s reply to Pandit Jawarlal Nehru. Printed at Brandreth Road Lahore on Feb. 17th 1936, page 22).
If you're not a strawberry and keep getting asked if you're from a strawberry patch
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re: Real Masiah Hazrat Isa(A.S) VS mirza ghulam ahmed

**‘Allama Iqbal’s Eulogy of the British

**The above represents the viewpoint of the Promised Messiahas. Since his detractors allege that his praise for the British is a proof of his being the British agent, it is instructive to see what they themselves had said in that regard. The most notable among these, whose person has been particularly advertised in this government publication, is ‘Allama Sir Muhammad Iqbal. Let us see what he used to say and write about the British in his time and what were his sentiments and thoughts about them. He wrote an elegy on the death of Queen Victoria, in which he said:

Meet uthi hai shah ki ta’zeem ke lye
Iqbal urr ke khaak e sar e raah guzaar ho

The Monarch’s coffin is on the move,
Get up Iqbal, (and grind thyself to dust)
Then spread thy dust on funeral route,
Thy reverence for the Queen to prove.

Soorat wohi hai naam mien rakha hua hai kia
Sete hain naam maahe Muharram ka hum tujhe

What’s in a name, ‘tis tragedy supreme
We’ll name this (tragic) month as Muharram

This means that according to Iqbal, one may give any name to the month in which Victoria died, however, the fact remains that the tragedy of her death was no less than the tragedy which occurred in Muharram when almost fourteen hundred years ago the grandson of the Holy Prophetsa, Hadrat Imam Hussainra, was martyred. He further develops this theme and says:

Kehte hian aaj Eid hui hai hua karre
Iss Eid se to mott hi aaye khuda karre

They say, "It’s festival of Eid, today"
Who cares about Eid, be that as it may!
O God, (if Thou to prayer listeneth)
Do grant that we be visited with death!

So this is the Mujahid-e-Millat [the Stalwart of the Nation] ‘Allama Sir Muhammad Iqbal, who is considered to be the topmost among the list of the opponents of Ahmadiyyat! And he was in the vanguard of those who accused the Promised Messiahas of being implanted by the British, only because he had praised them. He goes much further and says:

Ae hind tere sir se uthaa saaya e khuda
Ikk ghum ghussar tere makeeno kit hi gai

O India! from thy head is lifted now,
The Wing of God’s Mercy, (alack-a-day!)
Gone is now, one who shared thy people’s grief,

Hilta hai jisse arsh ye rona issi ka hai
Zeenat thi jiss se tujh ko janaaza ussi ka hai

Now heavens shake as mourners for her cry,
‘Tis the funeral of Thy Adornment, now gone by!

The Promised Messiah has been accused of calling the British 'The wing of God’s mercy' whereas ‘Allama Iqbal himself has used the same term 'wing of God’s mercy' in this elegy.


abhi zara khudd soch lo Allama ko quote karne ke nuksaan....abhi kia naam hai apna Dr Israr Ahmad sahib ko bhi quote kia hai aapne....unke baare mien bhi thora sa mera khyaal kuch likhna chahyye.
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re: Real Masiah Hazrat Isa(A.S) VS mirza ghulam ahmed

Dr Israr's video are not related to the topic, d-toxed.

By the way, this poem of Iqbal, its taken from which book?

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I just closed off the book I was reading the poen from....but will find out tomorrow.

Secondly Dr Israr is quoted by original poster and I am just showing him how credible is his source....the post shouldnt have been removed...but i dont mind if you think if it was off topic.

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The poem by Allama Iqbal in the video explained by Dr Israr Ahmed. was one of the last poems of Allama Iqbal.. Allama Iqbal knew that mirza is a false person, becoz earlier iqbal was a fan of this cult, but soon as he realized that mirza is a Liar.. he disengaged himself from mirza.. and declared him kaafir (you can see that in the start of the video).. So thats the thing dude..
[Merged] PAT workers attacked in Lahore
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Since the other thread is closed, so I am replying to Coolguyin in this thread regarding the following question he asked:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-scripture/323760-isa-dead-alive-light-quran-hadith-15.html#post6872847

Let me write the hadith you are referring to:

“Thauban (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) said: ‘Thirty people will make false claim to prophethood in my Ummah even though I am ‘Khatamun Nabbiyeen’ and there is no prophet after me.“’ (Abu Daud: Kitab Alfitan).

Now, let me draw your attention to the Hadith related to Messiah of the latter days. This is contained in the book Al-Sahi Muslim Kitab-Alfitan in the chapter about the Dajjal.

Narrating the accounts relating to the descent of Messiah son of Mary, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) says: ” . . ..The prophet of Allah, Jesus, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, will be besieged along with his companions, Allah be pleased with them.” Then he says: “Then, the prophet of Allah, Jesus, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, will turn to God with full attention along with his companions, Allah be pleased with them…”

This Hadith is noted in Al-Sahi Muslim one of the books of the six most authentic compilations of Ahadith. It is to be noted that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) calls the Messiah who is to come as the prophet of God four times. In addition, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) calls the companions of the Messiah as ‘Sahaba’ followed by the appellation ‘Raziallaho Unhum’ - ‘Allah be pleased with them’.

Now you may say Jesus (peace be on him) was on old prophet. That is why he has been mentioned as prophet of Allah. How would you explain the use of words ‘Sahaba’ for the companions of the Messiah? According to you, ‘Sahaba’ is a term used exclusively for the companions of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him). It is very obvious that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) was referring to an event that was to take place in the future.

Irrespective of the fact whether we have thirty or thirty million dajjals or impostors, the fact remains that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) has called the Messiah of the latter days as a prophet of God. No one can change that.

The fact of the matter is that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be on him) possessed immeasureable honor and status both in heaven and on earth. He calls the Messiah of the latter days a prophet of God four times consecutively in one Hadith. Now, who is there to deprive him of this status? Who can close this door that has been opened by him?

With regards to the appearance of thirty dajjal in the Muslim Ummah, I have the following in Ikmal- Al-lkmal, a commentary of Al-Sahi Muslim (vol. 7, pg. 258 Egyptian)

“It would be evident to every student of the history of Islam that the truth of this Hadith has been fully established. The number of impostors from the time of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) till today has reached the count indicated by the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) in his prophecy.“

This, indeed, is the fulfillment of a divine plan that the prophesied count of the impostors was completed before the advent of the true claimant to prophethood and it was documented in the book noted above by Muhammad Bin Yusuf Al-Sannusi Al-Hassani (died 895 A.H.).

It could be argued that there may have been some more impostors making claims following the year 895 A.H. till the time of Promised Messiah (peace be on him). This would make the number mentioned in the Hadith about thirty dajjal as dubious. But that was not so. This argument is put to rest by a top scholar of Ahle Hadith, Nawab Siddique Hassan Khan, an almost contemporary of the Promised Messiah (peace be on him). He writes:

The prophecy made by the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) regarding the advent of Dajjal in this Ummah has been fulfilled and their number as foretold has been completed. (Hijaj Al-Keramah pg. 239, published 1291 A.H. / 1874 A.D.).

Not only are both these statements BEFORE the claim of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, but also the leader of the Ahli Hadith sect makes the second statement.

There are Ahle Hadeeth people on this board right now who will cite this Hadeeth to show that Hazrat Ahmad (as) is false. However, their very own leaders have already admitted, before even the advent of Hazrat Ahmad (as), that the 30 liars have already appeared.

However, even if they retract their statemente now, the Sahi Muslim Hadeeth is very clear that the Messiah that is to come will be Nabi’Ullah. Call him the literal Isa (as) if you want, that’s a whole different debate. But as far as your question as to how can we accept another Prophet (sa) after Muhammad (as), the Hadeeth is clear - the Messiah will be Nabi’Ullah and Ahle Hadeeth have already accepted that the 30 liars have come and gone.

But that’s not all. There are several more Hadeeth to show that Prophets can still come

"Abu Bakr is the best of men after me except a prophet should appear.” (Kanzul Ummal)

“Abu Bakr is the best of the people after me except one who may be a prophet.” (Tabrani Kabir Kamil Ibne Adi quoted in Jame Saghir by Imam Suyuti, p.5)

“Abu Bakr is the best of my followers except anyone who might be a prophet.” (Dalmy quoted by Kanzul Haqaiq of Imam Mondadi, p. 7)

“Abu Bakr holds the highest place in this Ummah except that a prophet is raised amongst them.” (Kanzul Haqaiqi Hadith Khair-el-Khalaiq by Alama Abdur Rauf, Munavi)

These Hadeeth are very unambiguous and clear that the Ummah is to regard Abu Bakr (rz) as the best in the Ummah, unless a prophet is raised among them. No question that the Prophet(sa) knew that another prophet very well could come. He said these hadeeth to make clear that until a Prophet comes, Abu Bakr (rz) is the best.

Now the only way to rectify these hadeeth with the ones you cited, is to recognize that he only spoke of law bearing prophethood as coming to an end, not Prophethood in every manner.

I can go on with more and more Hadeeth but I’ll stop here for now. I hope this made sense. You’ll notice everything is cited.

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I must say you must have done a lot of research on this issue. That is good for you.

Let me point by point give you the answer to the best of my knowledge on this issue. I am not going to write paragraph over paragraph to convince you..just going to write you 2/3 sentences answer. Rest is between you and your Allah.

His (AS)'s name was Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS). Yes, not Isa (AS), he was given the title of Isa (AS). Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) was to Hazrat Muhammad PBUH , just as how Isa AS was to Moses AS. Isa (AS) is proven dead from Quran. Therefore, He himself cannot return to Earth bodily alive. Also, Jesus (AS) was given the title of Elijah to John the baptist upon Jews asking Him. Also, to add to this topic, yes it is permissible to give someone a title if He possess his qualities.

Mehdi and dajjal did not appear?

Maseeh and Mahdi are one and the same. When Masih is dead. One must accept the coming of Maseeh as the coming of Mehdi. It is foolish to believe they are two different people. This issue raises a lot of questions about Isa (AS)'s mission etc.. as far as dajjal is concerned, yes dajjal has also appeared according to many of the scholars. It only depends what you mean when you say dajjal. So plez do enlighten us with the definition of dajjal

Maseeh and Maseeh naasri ( the second ) are two different personalities also. In bukhaari hadith , hazur SAW describe Jesus (AS) as reddish color and curly hair. Then in another bukhari hadith, huzoor SAW described the second Jesus (AS) ( the person with the title of Isa ) as a man whose color will be ‘gandami’,His hair falling on his shoulder, and has straight hair.

He did not descend from heavens, nor did any kafir die of His breath?

Jahaalat at its peak. You will live and u will not see Jesus (AS) descending from heavens, your generation will live , they also will die but no one will descend from heavens. Your generation after generation will wait for him to appear, But they will die and not see Him coming from heavens. Descending doesnt mean coming from ‘heavens’ , it means coming from Allah. Maseeh’s mission is not to kill kafir. Beside, which kafir will die? christians? or Muslims?

will post the rest of the answer later, as i m heading to university for now. Please have patience.

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re: Real Masiah Hazrat Isa(A.S) VS mirza ghulam ahmed

Mr. Popat.. its very clear from ahadees e nabwi (S.A.W.W) that dajjal will be a man, who will be blind in one eye, and his other eye will be like a grape.. So tell me where and when did your maseeha kill him??
No its evident from ahdees that christians and jews will believe on him and christianity will die.. before Esa (A.S)'s death..
And also answer me about the mother of your maseeha... Please reply..

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re: Real Masiah Hazrat Isa(A.S) VS mirza ghulam ahmed

Popat

All the Ahadith that talk about Messiah and Mahdi have one thing in common, they all prophecise a political/wordly victory of muslims and establishment of justiuce in all corners of the world. This is something in which Mirza Sahib has failed. There isn't a single narration or Hadith that Mirza Sahib fullfils pertaining to Messiah.

And for that matter, Messianism, in its essence has always been a doctrine of political victory or establishment of a social order based on justice and is NEVER about religious reform. Look for messiah concept of any religion, Jewsih, christian, Islam, hinuism, Buddhism, Zoroastrian, ALL messiahs of these religions are prophecised to bring political victory, establsh a just social order. So i can go on to say that Mirza Sahib does not fullfill qualities of any messiah of any religion.

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re: Real Masiah Hazrat Isa(A.S) VS mirza ghulam ahmed

[mod] Guys, Please take a moment and review religion forum rules. Failure to abide these rules will result in a warning or a ban. Also, anyone referring other members as kafir will recieve 50 warning points which will result in an automatic ban. I hope you guys will watch your language and will carry a constructive discussion.

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sweefism
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Its quite amazing to see how one school of thought has many thoughts within it. Take your wordings for example. You say dajjal will be a man. But look what this man whose voice is being heard all around the world , Aamir liaquat hussain from the program Alim online aired on Geo TV has to say on the issue of Dajjal.




Now go ahead, and call him whatsoever you wish. The truth remains. He is in other words representing the belief of Muslims living in the world. He must be right in his thinking and hence given the opportunity to talk about such sensitive issue of Dajjal on air.

Also noteworthy is the fact is that this thinking of his is been taken straight from the beliefs of Jamaat e Ahmadiyya. He is wrong when he says that after ‘his’ research on this matter. This information of dajjal is available for the past 100+ years now from Jamaat e Ahmadiyya.

Also to note from your reply is that you did not explain much about Dajjal. For example … he/it will eat fire, his transportation (donkey) will be so fast that it/he will cover the distance of months in hours… he/it will be one eyed ( as you said ).. all the believers will be able to read the word KUFR on his/its forehead.. and so on and so forth.

Sir.. pardon me answering you with a long reply, but you also mentioned that Christianity will die upon Maseeh’s arrival. This has contradiction in itself. When i say contradiction, i think whether when Jesus (AS) will return, will He (AS) teach Islam to christians or the true Christianity to Christians ( on which He is given the knowledge of ? ) Also, needless to say about millions of christians who have already died before His (AS)'s ascension, believing in Him as their lord… how will they be delt? these are just questions which came from the top of my head. I can have these kinds of questions in length, which honestly requires someones neutral mind to think that the belief of ascension of ISA AS to heavens is the problematic issue which is causing me as well as many others to have such questions i asked above. This is exactly why i say the issue of ISA (AS)'s death/ascension is very important for one to understand anything about jamaat e ahmadiyya.

PS: again, get the definition/concept of Dajjal right and you’ll know how Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) the Promised Messiah , killed dajjal.

PS2 : While you are in the process of answering, please do answer my question when i asked if the mission of Messeh Maood is to kill the unbelievers and to break the ‘cross’ ? thank you.

let's just end this once and for all
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Reference as requested and promissed:

Baqiyat-e-Iqbal, compiled by Sayyed Abdul Wahid Mu'ini, M.A.(Oxon). Published by Aina-e-Adab, Anarkali, Lahore, Pakistan.

ٹائم پاس ماہ جون - Time Pass June 2014 - الوقت ممر يونيو
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arre mien tumhien yehi to samjhaa raha hoon ke Allama Iqbal to bichaare khudd thore confuse they kabhi Jamaat ki tareefien karte they to kabhi buraai...haan to iss mozoo ke lyye Allama ka reference dena mujhe to kissi bhi pehloo se samajh nahin aaya...agar aapko aaya hai to zara wazaayat farmaa dien isski...shukria

ٹائم پاس ماہ جون - Time Pass June 2014 - الوقت ممر يونيو
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too miaan ye jo conditions tumne kahin se nikaali hian zara Ahadith ka reference bhi de do taake iss allegation ka patta zara sahi tareeke se saaf kia jaa sakke....haan ye sabb 15 points se related jo bhi Ahadith hain wo please paste karrien.

ٹائم پاس ماہ جون - Time Pass June 2014 - الوقت ممر يونيو
ٹائم پاس ماہ جون - Time Pass June 2014 - الوقت ممر يونيو
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Baqiyat-e-Iqbal is part of his poetry that Allama Iqbal disliked and discarded. Queen victoria died in 1901, when Iqbal was like 25, 26 years old.

So i think Iqbal himself did not like the poem and did not include it in books that he himself compiled. Moreover, Iqbal was an ordinary person, did not claim to be a messenger of Allah. Ordinary people can make mistakes, messengers cannot afford this.

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Messengers are also human...they are also not perfect....

Secondly I am not aware of the history behind this poem...I am 24 and I know very well what I write now may be used against me in near or far future....dont under estimate Allama...if he could have written strong poetry at the age of 25 then I am sure he did know what he was talking about...infact i am taking your words that poem was written in 1901.

[Merged] PAT workers attacked in Lahore
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Was dost wah..
Lagta hai tumhari Aqal boht moti hai.. a very simple thing doesnt go through your skull… Look dude.. First of all i dont consider this drama (amir liaqat) as a reasonable and sensible person..nor do i respect him and consider him as a scholar…right?? You didnt need to quote him coz i did not see the vides you quoted.. Now comes your maseeha.. So yes you were right in saying that dajjal will ride on a donkey with the donkey’s ears stretched apart…40 hands of distance between the two ears right… Now my question is still there… you didnt answer my question…
OK now let me put it in another way… lets put it as you mentioned… you said that the speed of that donkey will be very fast right?? So now you have to tell me, that this fast ‘‘sawaari’’ is most likely the aeroplan right??and as far as i know aeroplanes were quite after your maseeh e mauood right?? Tell me how did your maseeh e maood kill Dajjal before even the birth of airplanes??? when there was no question of dajjal?? And by the way.. my question is still there, What about your maseeha’s mother?? She was chiragh not Maryam??? wasnt she???

Yes now i answer your questions… and please answer my questions straight… dont try to twist the things OK???
Well you asked that if Hazrat Isa (A.S) (who is alive and in the skies) will kill all christians and others.. well As mentioned in hadith shareef that all Dajjal’s friends will be killed by his breath..and his breath will reach where His eye sight reaches.. OK??? But the rest of the christians.. who wont be friend of Dajjal, will see that the Person (Hazrat Isa(A.S)) whom they believed to be the Son of God.. is himself with the muslims… and is a muslim… So why the hell are we doing being christians?? Isnt it common sense??? If your leader or the person you pray becomes muslim… why would you remain non-muslim???
So its quite a common sense issue.. So cross will automatically break !!! Got it??? Now answer mine in the similar way as i have answered yours..!!!

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re: Real Masiah Hazrat Isa(A.S) VS mirza ghulam ahmed

Have you ever heard a term called Metaphor....if not then I suggest you do some serious reading.