RE: Sholay – [Jesus Ascension VS Jesus Death]

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Babar,

You qandianis are indeed masters of twisting words and meanings.

Your understanding of the clear verse is a joke.

Why don't you tell me where the qur'an says Jesus (as) died and let me correct yr false beliefs.

42

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

Where are your references, where in Koraan???

Allaah says they killed him not but do you think later he would say he was killed? That does not sound like Allaaah, that sounds like your will and your twisting of the meaning of the verse, or perhaps fabrication.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Allaah did not contradict him self in Koraan. And please avoid using conjectures when dealing with Koraanic verses.

43

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**Babar,

You qandianis are indeed masters of twisting words and meanings.

Your understanding of the clear verse is a joke.

Why don't you tell me where the qur'an says Jesus (as) died and let me correct yr false beliefs.**
[/quote]

Mr. a1shah,

I have not told you my own meanings. These meanings are written in Urdu Translation of Quran (Translated by Maulana Shaokat Ali Thanwi).You yourself can see. So if you have any complaint that should not be against Qadianies.

Just wait for the answer of your 2nd question.

44

I think sholay you are pretty much a confused person. As other you also don’t listen just talk and talk and put your questions and opinions with out listening to others.

Sholay says: “On one hand you are stating that he died on the cross and on the other hand you are stating he has returned and was is buried in Kashmir..”
For the last time, let me make this clear to you.. Ahmadis believes that JESUS DID NOT DIE ON CROSS. clear?. Though indeed HE WAS PUT ON THE CROSS but for a short time, then was moved from there to a tomb where he was treated for THREE DAYS](Matthew - Chapter 12)(matthew 12:40)… from there he managed to escape and after a long journey reached KASHMIR](http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/noble/nobae023.htm#50) where he died a NATURAL DEATH like all other prophets, LIKE OUR BELOVED PROPHET(sa). …..more on this later.
Sholay says: “When the Qur’aan states that’ they killed him not’… it means exactly what it says.”
yes indeed it means they fail to kill him, but the question is does this statement leaves only one option that since he escaped the death, he was ascended to sky? Where is your grandfather, if he is not killed then he must also be floating in the skies. Very immature on your part.

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited June 17, 2001).]

45

coming back to the argument regarding his ascension, you first presented a verse from chapter Al-Imran (3:55), which you translated as
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself…

however, I rejected your translation from QURAN with ample examples that those words you translated means something different on other places in Quran (read my first reply) also I posed a question to you, which you DELIBRTELY IGNORED.. let me rephrase

>> Q. I want to see the references how you translated those words as such?
Again you quoted couple of more verses; 4:157 and 4:158, which read as;

4:157 “That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.”
The above verse has been translated differently by different scholars.. some even add that a man is substituted with Jesus while translating this verse… however a closer look make the concept very clear…

Without going any further, first let us try to dissect the key words ‘wa lakin shubbiha lahum’ and understand the usage and syntax.

The meaning of the root word “SHIBBAHUM” is given in Arabic dictionary as “a LIKENESS”. The word “SHUBBIHA” is the passive form of the root word and means “TO BE MADE LIKE”**

Now the question is, WHAT was made like that, Two possibilities,
**1) either Someone is made like Jesus, or
2) the whole scenario for which the verse is talking about was mimicked. **

The above verse does not refer to simulation of appearance of a different person. If any of the fairly correct translation is considered, than the word similitude refers to the key words ‘DEATH’ or ‘CRUCIFIXION’

**they could not KILL him nor could they CRUCIFY him, event though a likeness of THAT was made to them….. **

how you inferred the theory that a man is substituted with Jesus, is very hard for an intellectual one to comprehend…
4:158 “Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise”
the irony is the verse over here is again mistranslated to make the fairytale more charming. By saying that Allah raised him ALIVE lead to the concept that Allah is located to some fix location in the galaxy. What a shame on your part, you hold a concept but you don’t have proof to validate.

Again here the Arabic word RAFA is misread as physical ascension, earlier I gave you examples from Quran that Rafa in no way means a PHYSICAL ASCENSION but a SPIRITUAL ASCENSION, yet you don’t have any PROOF FROM QURAN/ HADITH/ LEXICON/ HISTORY/ ARABIC LITERATURE to justify your theory that RAFA as physical ascension.
Couple of more tips before I leave you for homework…

PS 2: your reply to verse 3:144 will be posted shortly.

a1shah: read the very first post on this thread for your query “ Why don’t you tell me where the qur’an says Jesus (as) died”.. I have dealt it in very detail. And if you cope there are 20 more verses coming up..

wa’salam

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited June 17, 2001).]

46

Zalim,

KORAAN[Surah An-Nisa verses 156-159]

  1. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

157.That they said (in boast), **"We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. **

Then, Allaah negates them and their claims that they have killed Jesus, by Saying:

  1. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

  2. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them.

BEFORE his death, they must believe in him before he dies when he comes back.

You said, Jesus died in Kashmir?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

And he died a natural death? (suddenly I feel so ignorant and out of this world…)

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

I hope it wasn’t cholera! Was it?

Peace,

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

.

47

dear Abdul Basit forget about my beliefs. Just tell me how can you justify the meaning of the word RAFA as PHYSICAL ASCENSION?

If something is true, it should be true from all sides, you are showing only your inner thoughts not the actual homework… I hope next time you will come up with something productive and nothing less.

PS: read my PS1 above.

48

Read this:
http://answering-islam.org/Debates/Deedat_McDowell.html

should i cut and paste it

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/tongue.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

You (Muslims) are the best nation ever raised among the mankind: (because) you
advocate righteousness and FORBID EVIL, and you believe in (one) GOD (ALLAH).
(Sura: Alay-Imran; Ayat:110)

Sitaaron Pay Jo Daltay Hain Kamand!

Shaheen=An Eagle or A Flacon!
(And yes it’s a MALE Shaheen :wink:

49

Shaheen I think you guys understand English very well… let me narrow down my question to one.

Just give me the meaning of RAFA ﻊﻔﺭ from QURAN. ???????????

50

you read the whole thing in 20 minutes

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

quite amazing

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

good for you…

Are you an Arab???
I don’t know much Arabic…
can you give me the meaning of this word Rafa from Arabic grammer… Has any Arab (Who speaks the language and knows the meaning of the word better than anyone) tried to explain the meaning and concluded that Jesus died??
If so please, give reference…

As far as I know, Mutawaffi-yatawafaa (in Bab-e-Afa’l) means to take the thing fully away…
In normal case, when the word is used it means only the soul is taken away not the whole thing…

I don’t know if I was able to explain it to you completely, or were you able to understand what I said… but that is what I believe…

Lanatul lahe allal kazebeen…
Wama Alain Illal Balagh!

You (Muslims) are the best nation ever raised among the mankind: (because) you
advocate righteousness and FORBID EVIL, and you believe in (one) GOD (ALLAH).
(Sura: Alay-Imran; Ayat:110)

Sitaaron Pay Jo Daltay Hain Kamand!

Shaheen=An Eagle or A Flacon!
(And yes it’s a MALE Shaheen :wink:

51

thankyou for your reply again;

i am not an arab nor i know arabic, but i try to seek things by myself instead of limping on websites and old craps…

it is the beauty of Quran that one verse explains the other, there is not a single topic which has not been supported by another verse and and each word it contain is used several times so as the meaning can be understood very clearly..

the irony is in the whole Quran these two words under discussion are translated the same way except when it comes the issue of Jesus they change the translation. I would like to know why is that so.. on what creteria they are meant as such , what lexicon is used to define that…

WHY is the queation?

here are some examples again…

52

Now that I have returned from my weekend break I will continue from where I left off.

To all the Ahmedies and Qadianis,

You all believe that Mirza Ghulam was undoubtedly a Prophet and that after any Prophethood one must be Truthful and not tell any lies or make false Prophecies.

Let's forget the A'Hadeeth for a minute and take the Qur'aan as the only source of guidance. (The stance of the Submitters).

No ayat actually states that another Prophet will be sent after Mohammed PBUH.

Furthermore, the Qur'aan clearly states the following:

014.001 A. L. R. A Book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in power, worthy of all praise!-

This confirms that Mohammed PBUH came for all of mankind. Not for the select few, but all mankind!

Can you all please confirm on what basis did Mirza come and for who, bearing in mind we are not referring the A'Hadeeth?

This will in turn nullify the claim of the return of the Messiah, as the Qur'aan does not mention the return.

If we do take A'Hadeeth into account, then can you please confirm any of the Prophecies that are mentioned and have been fulfilled. Bear in mind that the Christians are still the largest faith in the World and the Crucifix is still going from strength to strength. Therefore, the Dajjall and Pig have not been crushed as stated previously by BABAR123. However, please answer.

Finally can you all confirm why the following Prophecies were not fulfilled which Mirza claimed.

"To Judge my truthfulness or lies, there is no better test than my prophecies."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 19, P. 288)
"Let it be known to unbelieving persons that my truthfulness or falsehood will be judged by my prophecies. There is no other touchstone for it."
(Pamphlet, 10th July 1888; Aina-e-Kamalat-i-Islam, P. 288)
"I do not speak of my volition. Indeed, that is nothing but revelation which is revealed."
(Tabligh-e-Risalat, Vol. 5, P. 58)
Torah and Quran have designated Prophecies as the only big proof of Prophethood."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 12, P. 111)
"It is not possible that the prophecies of Prophets are delayed."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 19, P. 5)
"To turn out a liar in his own prophecy is biggest disgrace of disgraces."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 15, P. 382)

The above is the condition that Mirza attached himself, regarding the Truth.

Prophecies and Mubahala Concerning Mr. Abdullah Khan Atham
Mirza Ghulam Qadiani was badly humiliated by Mr. A.K. Atham, a Christian, in a debate. Mirza Ghulam's repeated prophecies regarding a miserable death for Mr. Atham did not come to pass.

Prophecy concerning Multiple Marriages and many Children
"Indeed God has given me the good news that I shall have numerous children from blessed women, whom I shall marry after this revelation."
(Tabligh-i-Risalat, Vol. 5, P. 58)

"In February 1886, I made a declaration after receiving revelation from God that He gave me good news of marriages after this declaration and soon I shall marry women of good omen and virtue and to me will be born children from them."
(Tabligh-i-Risalat, Vol. 1, P. 89)

Mirza Ghulam made this statement when he was 46 years old. The fact is that he did not marry anyone after this prophecy.

Prophecies Regarding Marriage to Mohammadi Begum
Mirza Ghulam's repeated assertions that his marriage to Mohammadi Begum was ordained by God never came to pass. Additionally, none of the individuals he had threatened with death from God died as he had predicted.

Prophecies Regarding the birth of Sons to his wife
Mirza Ghulam made multiple prophecies regarding birth of sons to his wife. They all failed.

Prophecy about Marriage to a Virgin and a Widow
Mirza Ghulam has written:

"It is God's intention that He will bring two ladies in my wedlock. One will be virgin and the other widow. Therefore, this inspiration that is related to Bikr (virgin), it has been fulfilled and, presently by the grace of God, I have four sons from this wife. I am still waiting for the fulfillment of the inspiration regarding widow."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 15, P. 201)

Mirza Ghulam never married a widow.

Prophecies Regarding "A Spark of Light of Allah"
Mirza Ghulam's claim that a new born boy would grow up to become the savior of the humanity failed, when the young boy died of an illness.

Prophecies Concerning the Plague and Qadian
Mirza Ghulam feared Cholera very much and declared it to be one of his signs. He predicted that the plague that became rampant in Punjab will not enter Qadian, the dwelling place of God's prophet (himself)! However, not only did the plague spread to Qadian, it also took the life of several people in Mirza Ghulam's own house.

Prophecies Concerning Birth of a Son to a Follower
Mirza Ghulam's prophecies concerning the birth of a son to one of his followers, Manzoor Muhammad, did not materialize.

Prophecies and Mubahala Concerning Dr. Abdul Hakim
Mirza Ghulam Qadiani engaged in a discussion with a Muslim Doctor by the name of Abdul Hakim. During this discussion, the Doctor called Mirza a Liar and challenged him to a debate. Instead of accepting the debate, Mirza Ghulam prophecised a miserable death for Dr. Hakim. These predictions also failed and proved to be the inventions of a lost soul and a pretender.

Prophecy Concerning Long Life
Mirza Ghulam declared to have received wahi (revelation) concerning his lifespan:

"Enemies wish for my death and prophecise about it. God has, however, given me the good news that I shall live for eighty (80) years or more."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 19, P. 239; Mawahib-ur-Rahman, P. 21)

Mirza Ghulam Qadiani died when he was sixty eight (68) years old.

Prophecy Concerning his Death in a Holy City
Mirza Ghulam had stated:

"I will die either in Mekkah or Medina."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 2, P. 105; Tadhkira, P. 591)

Mirza Ghulam did not ever see Mekkah or Medina. He died in the city of Lahor, Pakistan; his body was moved and burried in Qadian.

Does this confirm that all Prophets are Liars or some are Liars or was Mirza the Liar here.

Please answer and do not avoid the questions.

53

Sholay I am sorry to say, I thought you are an intellectual individual, unfortunately you are no more than a paki-mentality personality.

I am not disgracing you but just want to tell you that there are some etiquettes of conversation, we are TALKING ABOUT ASCENTION OF JESUS, and NOT about stupid ahmadis or anything else.

Am I CLEAR ENOUGH?

I know when you pakis don’t have any evidence to support your blind-beliefs, you go off-track and pull other stuff to divert the topic.

From start till now I am asking you a ONE SIMPLE QUESTION, can you dare to answer?

In future your relevant answer will be appreciated and nothing less.

wa'salam

54

Zalim

I may be a Paki or anything you else you claim I am.

However, answer the question if you can or dare.

Otherwise do not commit the same Miracle as your Leader.

The Miracle of Bull****!

The easiest way to avoid a question is to dismiss the evidence!

The answer to your question has already been answered a million times. Please don't keep on and on and on.

In addition can you answer this simple question.

Where in the Qur'aan does it state that Hazrat Isa AS will return. Take all the time in the world.

This does not however let you off the hook so easily.

Also answer the questions regarding your 'so called' saviour Mirza that I have posted regarding his Prophecies.

Otherwise I will answer them for you.

55

Non-Ahmedy Muslims are Guilty of altering the meanings of Quran:

Brave Acceptance of this fact by a Muslim Scholar:

Here I present one such example where a well known Muslim Scholar has accepted that Muslim Scholars are guilty of altering the meanings of Quran.

This brave Muslim Scholar is Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. Following is his statement:

"Quran mentions the death of Hazrat Isa about four times.......................But because the Muslim Scholars, as a result of just following the arguments of chriests, and before having taken consideration on Quran, had admitted that Hazrat Isa has been taken up alive in the Heavens. Therefore they (Muslim Scholars) HAVE TRIED TO MAKE ADJUST SOME WORDS OF THESE QURANIC VERSES TO
CONFIRM TO THEIR NON-RESEARCHED ADMIT."

(Tafseer-e-Ahmedy written by Sir Syed Ahmed Khan...page 46,47 part-1

volume 4, Published mufeed Aama 1903 AD).

56

Sholay said: *”The answer to your question has already been answered a million times. Please don't keep on and on and on.*
Good excuse… what a taqwaless reply... can you just point out ONE SINGLE PLACE where it has been answered (by you or anyone else)? I will really appreciate that.
Sholay said: *"Where in the Qur'aan does it state that Hazrat Isa AS will return. Take all the time in the world"*
Bet me, that would supposed to be my next question.. there is not a single verse which says that Jesus will come back yet you still believe that Jesus will descend haan? Better not say things that contradicts your beliefs.

[quote]
*The irony is Muslims just pick up one word from Quran, i.e *RAFA and one from Ahadith, i.e NAZOOL and craft a fairytale that JESUS ascended to sky and will descend in the later days..

However if you go through arabic lexicons you will astonished to see that the opposite of RAFA is TAWADO and that of NAZOOL is SAOOD.

The two words (rafa and nazool) are in no way opposite in meaning or context what so ever... **
[/quote]

(e.g if you have been educated from urdu medium, in algebra there are terms used as, tarteeb-e-nazooli and tarteeb-e-saoodi…)

should you need more proofs on RAFA and NAZOOL from Ahadith or Quran or Arabic lexicons, I will be glad to write them also.

On the other hand my question is still pending…

GOT GUTS?

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited June 18, 2001).]

57

Zalim

I do not think you are in a position to teach me, who actually reads, writes, speaks and understands Arabic as a fluent language.

All of the Arabic alphabet with exception to alif, are consonents.

These consonents are divided into 2 groups, the sun letters and the moon letters. I won't elaborate further on this as it may be a bit too deep for you to take on board at the moment.

You have vowel markings for the likes of you so that reading can be made easier and these markings are known as I'rab markings.

When Fatha, Kasrah or Dammah are doubled, This is called Tanwin.

You have 2 Plurals in Arabic, the Complete plural and the Broken Plural. I'll leave their formations for the time being, as I'm sure you're struggling as we speak.

The Noun has 3 genders, which is Masculine, Feminine and Common.

I'll leave the Particles also but can elaborate if you wish to make a bigger fool of yourself.

Please do not compare Urdu to Arabic.

Stereotypical assumptions are always proved WRONG!

More importantly, you are still fascinated about the question regarding the Ascension V Death of Hazrat Isa As.

The Qur'aan quite clearly stated that Hazrat Isa AS was not killed, therefore he did NOT die.

Èóá ÑøóÝóÚóåõ Çááøåõ Åöáóíúåö æóßóÇäó Çááøåõ ÚóÒöíÒðÇ ÍóßöíãðÇ

004.158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

This is the ayat that you are living by at the moment.

The word Exalt has Seven seperate words including Rafa which describe the same.

ÑÝÚº ãÌϺ Úáìº ÃËÇѺ ßËݺ ßÑѺ ÇÔÇÏ

The word Elevate has Five seperate words including Rafa which describe the same.

ÑÝÚº äÚÔº ÔíϺ åÐȺ äÔØ

Therefore you have some translations using Exalt and some using Elevate. What do they mean. TAKE UP!

The Qur'aan uses words in line with the context of the parrabel and relevance of revelation. But this is rather difficult for you to understand.

Okay, now let's assume that you have proved to all the Muslim world without a shadow of a doubt, that Mirza Ghulam was the Messiah as Prophecised according to A'Hadeeth.

Can you now please answer my questions regarding Mirzas Prophecies, otherwise I will answer them for you without any hesitation.

Up until know you have been very evasive of my questions, but unfortunately for you and fortunately for me, the clock is ticking away and time is running out for you.

For someone who hasn't a clue about the Arabic language, it's very strong making challenges regarding Arabic.

58

Thankyou sholay for your time, effort and short arabic lesson, that might be usefull for me at some point.

Lets for sec leave the ahmadism/ mirza/ qadianis/ etc. etc. on the side and concentrate on the topic. I am not ignoring your queries but since these are not relevant to the topic of thread, there is no need to jump on those issues, moreover there is already a thread running on this and you have already cut&pasted that stuff over there… normally I avoid answering to the crapy web-based arguments… but will answer each and every question of your… just finish this first..
By your explanation, the word RAFA had now become more complicated.

  • You said RAFA means ascend/raise, well that’s for materialistic thing is true but if you browse the QURAN, you will see wherever the word is used in between ALLAH and HUMAN there is no other meaning than RAISING OF SPIRITUAL STATUS and NOT PHYSICAL ASCENTION.. to support my statement I have given some examples from Quran.. (and if you want I can quote ahadith also.)

>> BUT WHERE ARE YOUR REFERENCES from QURAN / HADITH / ARABIC LITERATURE? <<

talking empty hands is not only useless but also a waste of time.

  • to further put a critique on your reply, another question arises “IF JESUS IS ASCENDED TO ALLAH, THEN WHERE IS ALLAH? Was He not there when he was ascended? Or in your beliefs Allah exist in heavens only?

  • and as you have cited above that RAFA means; to raise/ ascend, only than why in your translation it has been translated differently, why ASCEND/RAISE has been switched with EXALTED in the following verses?

2:253](http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/noble/nobae002.htm#253) - 7:176](http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/noble/nobae007.htm#176) - 19:57](http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/noble/nobae019.htm#57) - 24:36](http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/noble/nobae024.htm#36) - 35:10](http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/noble/nobae035.htm#10)

*PS 1: do you know the prayer between two sajda?

PS 2: what is the word in arabic for spiritual ascension?*

.

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited June 18, 2001).]

59

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**Why don't you read what I wrote just one more time.

The qur'an is telling you that you can only believe in Jesus BEFORE he dies.

**
[/quote]

Strange isn't it?

These people in Islam have completely twisted the meanings of the Quranic Verses. Now this very verse of Quran is clearly saying that the people of Book will never believe until they die (that Jesus never died on the Cross). These people of the Book will learn the truth only when they pass away, and they, on the Day of Judgement, will be witness to it.

The previous verse of Quran is explaining all about the death of the Jesus. This previous verse is clearing the belief of the Jews and of the christians who say he died on the Cross. The verse after it is in continuation of the precvious subject, as I have explained above.

**WHY THESE MUSLIMS ARE FOLLOWING THE

MULLAH. WHY DON'T THEY UNDERSTAND THAT QURAN

IS TRYING TO ESTABLISH THE HONOURABLE DEATH

OF JESUS, AND NOT THE ONE ON THE

CROSS.....???? **

...

[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 18, 2001).]

60

Zalim

Let' get a few things very clear here.

You being an Urdu expert are now trying to teach me Arabic. Very well.

In line with your reasoning concerning Rafa and it's context. Can you please explain which one of the following sentence formulas actually apply to the verse regarding Jesus being raised spiritually.

Nominal Sentence
Verbal Sentence
Adverbal Sentence
Conditional Sentence
Hypothetical Sentence
Restrictive Sentence
Exceptive Sentence
Conjuctive Sentence
Adversative Sentence

The above are all synonymous with Arabic Grammer.

Once you decide which angle you are going to take I will answer your questions regarding the meanings of Rafa and why it was used including it's context in line with Jesus NOT being killed.

Furthermore, I will now make life very easy but awkward for you.

Let's just say for arguments sake that Jesus went at the time as stated in the Qur'aan, whether it was Ascension or Death, it doesn't really matter, he's gone.

Because the Qur'aan does not state that he will return as he is gone one way or another, Where does the issue about the Messiah returning derive from?

Qur'aan supercedes A'Hadeeth therefore, let's just stick to the Qur'aan.

Where does Mirza fit into all this on the basis of the Qur'aan?