RE: Sholay – [Jesus Ascension VS Jesus Death]

[babar123]

To Mr. Sholay and all other Muslims who believe that hazrat Isa is alive in the Sky:

GIVE ME EXPLAINATION OF "SHAMFUL" ALTRATION IN THE MEANING OF FOLLOWING QURANIC VERSE:

Here is the Quranic Aayet Translated by Yusuf Ali:

"

And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men

`worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say:

"Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said

such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my

heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that

is hidden.

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say to wit

`Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I

dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst ......take me up..... thou wast the

Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.

"

(Al-Maaida- 116:117 Translation by: Yusuf Ali)

Description:

On the day of Judgment, Allah shall ask Hazrat Isa "Did you say your Ummah to
worship me and my Mother?

Hazrat Isa shall reply: I did say to them to worship Allah who is my Lord and
your Lord. And I witnessed them as long as I was among them. But when

you................TAKE ME UP................then you was watcher over them.

I have emphesised the words "TAKE ME UP":

The Arabi word for which Yusuf Ali Sahib has taken the meanings "TAKE ME UP"

is "TAWWAFATANI."

Its true meanings, Instead of "YOU TAKE ME UP" are "YOU GAVE ME DEATH".

Proof: When Doer is Allah and Object is Human being then only and only

possible meanings of the word "TAWWAFI" is "Died".

You can see any Arabi Dictionery as you like.

This word "TAWWAFI" has been used about 23 times in Quran including two times

for Hazrat Isa.

Very Very surprisingly, translation at all other places is "Died" or "Death"

and only and only for Hazrat Isa the translation is "You Take Me Up".

Very Important Point To Note hear is that suppose that this translation is

correct then this Aayat still do not say that Hazrat Isa was "Taken Up

TOWARDS HEAVENS". This Aayat Just says that "Hazrat Isa was Taken Up" and

does not says That "He Was Taken Up Alive towards the Heavens."

So Just Consider the Following:

Hazrat Isa says that "You take me up" and all Muslims take the Understanding

that "You take me up alive towards Heavens".

Again Remember:

Hazrat Isa says that "You take me up" and all Muslims take the Understanding

that "You take me up alive towards Heavens".

Again Remember:

Hazrat Isa says that "You take me up" and all Muslims take the Understanding

that "You take me up alive towards Heavens".

Now Consider the following Hadith of Sahi Bukhari:

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 6.149 Narrated by Ibn Abbas

Allah's Apostle delivered a sermon and said, "O people! You will be gathered

before Allah bare-footed, naked and not circumcised." Then (quoting Quran) he

said:
"As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. A promise We have

undertaken: Truly we shall do it..." (21.104)
The Prophet then said, "The first of the human beings to be dressed on the

Day of Resurrection, will be Abraham. Lo! Some men from my followers will be

brought and then (the angels) will drive them to the left side (Hell-Fire). I

will say. 'O my Lord! (They are) my companions!' Then a reply will come (from

Almighty), 'You do not know what they did after you.' I will say as the pious

slave (the Prophet Jesus) said: And I was a witness over them while I dwelt

amongst them. When You ......took me up......., You were the Watcher over

them and You are a Witness to all things.' (5.117) Then it will be said,

'These people have continued to be apostates since you left them.' "

Description:

Holy Prophet says that on the Day of Judgement Some men from my followers

will be brought and then (the angels) will drive them to the left side (Hell-Fire).

Holy Prophet says, 'O my Lord! (They are) my companions!'

Then a reply will come (from Almighty), 'You do not know what they did after you.'

Holy Prophet will then say, ' I will say as the pious slave (the Prophet Jesus) said:....

It means that Holy Prophet shall use the same wording for himself as was used

by Hazrat Isa for him.

This wording you can see in the above Hadith.

Here again the translator has used "You took me up" instead the true meaning

i.e, "You gave me Death".

Now recall your previous consideration:

Hazrat Isa says that "You take me up" and all Muslims take the Understanding

that "You take me up alive towards Heavens".

The Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) says that "You took me up" and all

Muslims take the Understanding that "You gave me death".

Again Note that:

Hazrat Isa says that "You take me up" and all Muslims take the Understanding

that "You take me up alive towards Heavens".

The Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) says that "You took me up" and all

Muslims take the Understanding that "You gave me death".

Again Note That:

Hazrat Isa says that "You take me up" and all Muslims take the Understanding

that "You take me up alive towards Heavens".

The Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) says that "You took me up" and all

Muslims take the Understanding that "You gave me death".

This is the clear proof that Hazrat Isa has Infact died.

Innah Lillah-e-wa Innah illah-e-Raj-e-oon.

If the meaning of a wording can be that after Hazrat Muhammad's (PBUH) Wissal (death) Allah was the watcher of his(PBUH) companions,

Then

The meaning of the "SAME WORDING" CANNOT be that after Hazrat Isa's "Gone towards Heavens with his alive Body" Allah was the watcher of his Ummah.

This is the most shameful altration in the meanings of Quran done by "Muslims".

IMPORTANT NOTE: Although the translator has used words "You took me up" in this Hadith which I have copied from Alim Software But However I myself has studied this Hadith in Urdu Translation (Translated Not By Ahmedies) And in Urdu Translation Holy Prophet (PBUH) says "when you gave me death.........." instead of "you took me up".

[sholay]

Babar and NMK

Ok, let's say for arguments sake that Jesus DID die on the cross,(even though the Qur'aan differs).

The Ayat NMK refers to is as follows:

003.144 Muhammad is no more than an apostle:
many Were the apostle that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

So the word is not ALL but MANY Prophets. This is self explanatory so no issue about difference in Sunnah arises.

Whether we Pray, perform Salaat, observe Fast and pay Zakat is none of your business as you are not anyones JUDGE. We have only Allah to answer to and not anyone else.

Or are you saying that your are the Judge and Creator now! Please answer.

How do you explain the tomb in Kashmir.

Obviously, Jesus must of returned at some stage in order to be buried in Kashmir as you state that he did DIE.

On one hand you are stating that he died on the cross and on the other hand you are stating he has returned and was is buried in Kashmir..

This whole concept nullifies your claims.

Please make your minds up, so that we may rebut your claims, whichever way you lean.

Once again, in case you find it hard to grasp, the Qur'aan claims:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. 4:157-158.

Babar,

If you claim that the true meaning of 'you take me up' realy means ' you gave me death' obviously assserts that the above verse is incorrect as it quite clearly states that Jesus was NOT killed.

Or does it mean that Jesus was Not killed BUT Killed instead! Does this make any sense to the simplest of people!

Please think before you speak.

[babar123]

Mr. Sholay,

So you accept that Hazrat Isa has died.

Your comments on the Aayet presented by NMK are as follows.

"So the word is not ALL but MANY Prophets. This is self explanatory so no issue about difference in Sunnah arises."

You say that the word is not "ALL" but "Many" Prophets.

What can I comment on this:

I challenge you to show the Arabi word in this Aayet (003.144 ) whose meaning is "Many".

I already have pointed out your one "shamful" altration in the meanings of Quran and You yourself are giving me more chances to show that Non-Ahmedy Muslims are guilty of Altring the meanings of Quran.

I again challenge you to show me the ARABI word in this Aayet (003.144) whose meaning is "Many".

For your convenience I try to write the words of this Aayet in English Alfabets.

"Wa Ma Muhammaddin Illa Rasool, Qad Khalat Min Qabl-e-Hi Rusal"

So the word is "Rusal" which shows that "ALL" Prophets before Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) have Passed Away.

My Challange is still there Keep this in mind.

You have become confused and have written following words.

"How do you explain the tomb in Kashmir.

Obviously, Jesus must of returned at some stage in order to be buried in Kashmir as you state that he did DIE.

On one hand you are stating that he died on the cross and on the other hand you are stating he has returned and was is buried in Kashmir..

This whole concept nullifies your claims."

I can justify the Grave of Hazrat Isa In Kashmir.

In very simple words:

Allah had save Hazrat Isa when Jews tried to kill him on cross.

After having his LIFE saved with the help of ALLAH, Hazrat Isa Migratted to Kashmir. He died there in the age of 120.( i.e in the Year 120 AD.)

I never have told you that Hazrat Isa was died on Cross.

So where is the confusion???????????

You have presented the following Quranic Aayet:

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."
4:157-158

Here I want to say something about this Aayet.

This is the MAIN Aayet presented by the followers of this Belief that Hazrat Isa is Still Alive to show that Hazrat Isa was not Killed but was raised............

Now Aayet is before you. I dont know where did you copy it from. But it is Quite clear that Even in this "MAIN" Aayet there is no mention that Hazrat Isa Is still alive.

There is just mention in this Aayet that Allah raised Hazrat Isa towards Himself.

NOTE: Here it is mention that Allah raised Hazrat Isa towards Himslf BUT

You insist that Allah raised Hazrat Isa towards "HEAVENS WITH HIS ALIVE BODY".

Fear from God. What can I say more Than It.

The meaning that Allah raised towards "Himself" is well explained on this same forum by another Ahmedy. If you have forget go back and find it.

After it, following are your comments for me.

"If you claim that the true meaning of 'you take me up' realy means ' you gave me death' obviously assserts that the above verse is incorrect as it quite clearly states that Jesus was NOT killed."

I Admit that Hazrat Isa was not KILLED. I DO NOT ADMIT THAT HAZRAT ISA WAS NOT DIED.

You are not a child. You should understand the difference between "killed" and "died".

A person who is NOT killed may have died.

But a person who is NOT died has also not been killed so for.

So if this Aayet says that Hazrat Isa was not Killed, Then however this Aayet DOES NOT SAY THAT HE WAS NOT DIED.

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE FOR YOU:

If you insist that meanings when Hazrat Isa says, "You take me up" are "you took me up alive towards Heavens"

WHY DO NOT YOU APPLY THE SAME MEANINGS TO HAZRAT MUHAMMAD(PBUH) BECAUSE HE ALSO HAVE USED THE SAME SET OF WORDS FOR HIMSELF??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I JUST WANT TO SAY YOU THAT YOU SHOULD FEAR FROM GOD.

Following is also your own confusions.

"Or does it mean that Jesus was Not killed BUT Killed instead! Does this make any sense to the simplest of people!"

Make yourself correct.

"Hazrat Isa was not killed. He was saved. Then he Migratted to Kashmir. In Kashmir HE DIED A NATURAL DEATH."

[NMK_Hajana]

Sholay !!!

When the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) died the people were very much in grief, and they could not believe that a prophet of such a great rank could die. Hazrat Umar took his sword out, and openly challenged those who were saying that the Prophet has died. Everyone in the crowd was quiet for the fear of Umar. In the mean time Abubakar came in and immediately noticed the tense situation. So he took up on the rostrum, and asked the attention of the followers of the prophet. Then he recited this very verse of Quran to them, and said to them that those who believe must know that their God is still living. And that Mohammad (s.a.w.) was a prophet of God. He died like every other prophet died before him.....

Now I ask Sholay, if this verse means "many" of the prophets (and not all of them) why then AbuBakar recited this verse to the muslims to quieten them. Why Umar did not say out at this time that Abubakar is lieing. There are some prophets who are still not dead....

Dear Sholay, why you insist on the translation of these half-educated mullahs as true. These Ulemas are already called in a Hadith as the most mischievious people on earth by the Prophet himself. These mullahs have made the religion as a source of their income. They will never tell you the truth.

...

[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 15, 2001).]

[Changez_like]

salam to all,

I guess I am the one who triggered discussion about Ahmedies/Qadianis. All I wanted was to get some info about their beleifs.

Lets not enter into the era when Iraqi (Bhaghdadi) people were busy in discussion/arguments over minor issues publicly "munaazara" and they were routed by invaders (I don't know who it was, Changez, Hilakoo or some other).

Lets suppose Hadrat Isa (AH) is dead (but not on the cross, but that does not mean that he died in Kashmir either).

What is so special about Ghulam Ahmed Mirza? Did he add/remove any law to/from Quran?
Did he bring something new to Islam?
Do all Muslims "HAVE" to beleive in him as Mehdi? what if someone doesn't?

---

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited June 15, 2001).]

[NMK_Hajana]

Chengez Khan !!!!!

Let me ask a question from you before I answer yours.

What is your opinion about a person who believes in Quran and in Prophet Mohammad but does not want to follow their instructions......????

...

[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 15, 2001).]

[Abdul_Basit]

[quote]
Originally posted by NMK Hajana:
**

Chengez Khan !!!!!

Let me ask a question from you before I answer yours.

What is your opinion about a person who believes in Quran and in Prophet Mohammad but does not want to follow their instructions......????

...

[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 15, 2001).]**
[/quote]

His opinion, and opinion of everyone else should be like this when someone who believes in Muhammed(saw) and Koraan but does not follow its intructions:

Koraan says in Suraah An-Nisa(4:15):

"If anyone contends with the Messenger (Muhammed) even after the guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that of the believers, We shall leave him in the path that he has chosen, and land him in HELL, - What an evil refuge!"

Another verse Allaah says in KoraaN - SuraaH Al-Ahzab(33:36)

"It is not for a believer, man or women, when Allaah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision..."

[Changez_like]

[quote]
Originally posted by NMK Hajana:
**

Chengez Khan !!!!!

Let me ask a question from you before I answer yours.

What is your opinion about a person who believes in Quran and in Prophet Mohammad but does not want to follow their instructions......????

...

[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 15, 2001).]**
[/quote]

are they "Mohammed PBUH" "Mirza" same to you? do they have similar/same status in Quran?

Mohammed PBUH was sent with Holy Quran, did Mirza bring any thing similar?

what kind of revolution did he bring?

how can you compare them both?

anyway, not following instructions could be in several categories. i'm not sure which one are you talking about. could be not following instruction to pray, could be not following instruction to have full faith etc...

as you know there are categories of such beleivers munafiq (beleiving only by saying words, but denying by hearts), fasiq, sinful Muslim etc.

also as indicated by bro Abdul Basit.

i don't beleive that majority is always right, nor is group after group acceptance as an indication of being right.

---

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited June 15, 2001).]

[NMK_Hajana]

I am grateful, Changez Khan, that you responded to my question. in a right way.

Now, since it is known that the believers must follow the teachings of Quran and the holy prophet if they do not want to be put in fire, then obviusly you will agree to all what Quran and the Prophet says.

Quran has clearly instructed all human beings to be with the prophets whenever they come to you from among you....

(Chapter 7, Verse 35)

You must remember this verse of Quran was revealed to the Prophet, and carries instruction to everyone, including the muslims. So was it justified for these mullahs to say no to a prophet when he declared he was the one appointed by Allah for these days.

These mullahs invented a theory of Khatme Naboowat by themselves which has no backing from the teachings of Quran. The word Khatim-un-Nabiyeen means not the 'last prophet' as mullahs tell it to you. It actually means 'the seal of prophets'.

It's very ironical that the muslims are humiliating their own Prophet by calling him as a 'last prophet'. Being a last prophet carries no significance. It's rather a humiliating thing to call someone as the last one. The true significance is that all other prophets fall under his teachings. They come to the world to revive the teachings of your own Holy Prophet. This is the truest sense of Khati-un-Nabiyeen.

Hazrat Ayesha clearly told the people not to call Prophet Mohammad as the 'Last Prophet'. She said: call him as Khatim-un-Nabiyeen but neverv the 'Last' one....

This is what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad stood for. He openly said I am nothing in myself. All this light and blessing I have got is because of my Master, the Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.). He says I am like a moon that gets its light from the Sun.

Seal of Prophet means every new prophet will carry a certification of approval from this Holy Prophet of ours, Prophet Mohammad....... All prophets that follow Mohammad will have no new teachings but the one given by Mohammad (s.a.w.). Every new prophet after Mohsammad will get his guidance and blessings through this Khati-un-Nabiyeen. Every one of them will have to act as per Quran.

THIS IS WHAT AHMADIES STAND FOR...

...

[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 15, 2001).]

[Abdul_Basit]

NMK,

What makes Mirza Ghulam Qadiani a Prophet?

Anyone can declare him self a prophet on conjecture that you are implying. Even you can say you are a prophet because you are from “among us…”. You should rely more on facts and what statement really means rather than relying on conjectures and sheer haughtiness!

You said: “Hazrat Ayesh clearly told the people not to call Prophet Mohammad as the ‘Last Prophet’. She said call him as Khatim-un-Nabiyeen but neverv the ‘Last’ one…”

Got references???

You said: “It’s very ironical that the muslims are humiliating their own Prophet by calling him as a ‘last prophet’. Being a last prophet carries no significance. It’s rather a humiliating thing to call someone as the last one. The true significance is that all other prophets fall under your teachings. They come to the world to revive the teachings of your own Holy Prophet. his is the truest sense of Khati-un-Nabiyeen.”

Koraan says in Suraah As-Saffat(37:37)

“Nay! He(Muhammed) has come with the truth and he CONFIRMS the Messengers (before him).”

You said: “Every new prophet after Mohsammad will get his guidance and blessings through this Khati-un-Nabiyeen.”

Through his “khati-un-nabiyeen???” But you just said you don’t believe in khatim-un-nabiyeen and here your contradicting your own self. BTW: Its spelled MUHAMMED not Mohsammad.

Do you believe in Koraan and its authencity?

Waiting for your to the point, short replies.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[NMK_Hajana]

A Basit !!!

When did I say i do not believe in Khatim-un-Nabiyeen. All I said was that the meanings given by the mullahs do not correspond to Quranic teachings. When you say that Mohammad was the Last Prophet, it actually is an insult to our Holy Prophet.

You quoted Quranic verse which says that Mohammad confirms all the prophets. This confirmation has always been the main teachings of all prophets throughout history. Every prophet comes from God, and the they confirm each other. So I do not see any questionable thing in quoting the verse.

Yes, I strongly believe Quran is authentic, and that its words are un-changeable. I have no doubt that Quran is the only Book of God that contains a full guidance for all the human beings of this world.

...

[Abdul_Basit]

How do you relate Mirza Ghulam Qadiani with the verse that I quoted?

What makes Mirza Ghulam Qadiani a Prophet?
(just for the record, its like 10th time I am asking this question, in three different threads.)

You should read your reply again, you will see. On one hand you said mullahs invented this theory of khatim-un-nabiyeen but later you said all the prophets after Muhammed(saw) will get guidance and blessing through khatim-un-nabiyeen of Prophet Muhammed(saw). Something is very wrong with that statement.
Thanks for answering my question regarding Koraan.

Now, tell me:

Do you believe in that verse which says:

"Today, I completed my favor upon you and accepted Islam as your religion..." ???

I will get you the actual verse.

[This message has been edited by Abdul Basit (edited June 15, 2001).]

[NMK_Hajana]

A. Basit !!!

All I said was that this Khatme Naboowat is an invention of mullahs. I did not say that I did not believe in the Quranic phrase Khatim-un-Nabiyeen.

These two are different things. The mullah chose this word Khatme Naboowat because his mischievious mind knew that the people will easily fall into his trap. In Urdu and some other local dialects, the word 'Khatm' is frequently used to convey the meanings 'to end'. In this way the mullah was trying to fool the people by giving them the word Khatme Naboowat, as against the actual Quranic phrase of Khatim-un-Nabiyeen.

If we correctly see the meanings of this verse of Quran, then it means as follows:

Mohammad is the seal of prophets.
Mohammad is the ring (or the jewel) of prophets
Mohammad is the one who creates impression on prophets.

All these meanings extol the position of our Holy Prophet to the higghest degree, rather than humiliating him (by calling him as 'the last' prophet).

I hope you understand what I am driving at. The mullah is intentionally using this word 'Khatme Naboowat' to mislead the people. In fact these mullahs have grossly insulted the prophet, and distorted the Quranic words. This is the real Blasphemy, and must be condemned at the highest pitch.
They should only use the correct words as has been written in Quran....Khatim-un-Nabiyeen......

But they won't do that. Because they know that the people will quickly understand they were twisting the meanings of the arabic words.

Now, lastly you put the question two three times:

WHAT MAKES MIRZA GHULAM QADIANI A PROPHET ???

The reply is very simple. He has been installed by Allah as a prophet so that he recites unto the people the signs of Allah, and tell them that who-so-ever shall fear God and do good deeds on them shall come no fear nor shall they grieve.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani claimed to be the Messiah and Imam Mahdi according to the prophesies of the Holy Prophet of Islam. He came in the beginning of the 14th century as was it foretold and he worked vigorously to defend the real teachings of Islam. He is the one who successfully has broken the cross, and has defeated the Dajjal valiantly by his strong beliefs and prayers.

...

[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 15, 2001).]

[Abdul_Basit]

[quote]
Originally posted by NMK Hajana:
**A. Basit !!!

Now, lastly you put the question two three times:

WHAT MAKES MIRZA GHULAM QADIANI A PROPHET ???

The reply is very simple. He has been installed by Allah as a prophet so that he recites unto the people the signs of Allah, and tell them that who-so-ever shall fear God and do good deeds on them shall come no fear nor shall they grieve.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani claimed to be the Messiah and Imam Mahdi according to the prophesies of the Holy Prophet of Islam. He came in the beginning of the 14th century as was it foretold and he worked vigorously to defend the real teachings of Islam. He is the one who successfully has broken the cross, and has defeated the Dajjal valiantly by his strong beliefs and prayers.

...

[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 15, 2001).]**
[/quote]

Lets not get into the meaning of the verses. That would lead to more friction and neither of us are scholars of arabic or Islam.

I asked you, WHAT MAKES HIM A PROPHET, what attributes, what abilities he had as a prophet, what miracles did he performed, what prophecies did he foretold and whether or not those prophcies came true or not, what favors of ALLAAH were upon him, what did he accomplished???????????????????????????????? That is what I mean to ask.

Now, you said he was installed by AllaaH?
Why would Allaah only install in in the town of Qadian or in Rubuwaa? Why isn't he in Koraan? Why isn't he in Bible?

Last but not least, PLEASE PROVIDE REFERENCES FOR YOUR CLAIMS!!!

You said:"Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani claimed to be the Messiah and Imam Mahdi according to the prophesies of the Holy Prophet of Islam. He came in the beginning of the 14th century as was it foretold and he worked vigorously to defend the real teachings of Islam. He is the one who successfully has broken the cross, and has defeated the Dajjal valiantly by his strong beliefs and prayers."

Where are your refernces, I want references from KORAAN or authentic books of ahaadeeths, please.

BTW: Who was the Dajjal? British government of that time?
Again, a very incomplete reply mister NMK. I am very disappointed. Read my reply again and you will see another un-answered question.

[NMK_Hajana]

A. Basit !!!!

My reply looks incomplete to you because you did not like it. Have you seen this reply was actually quoted from the Book, the Quran. It's Quran which explains the qualities of a prophet.

Certainly you are looking something to be quoted out of Quran. So let me tell you that the holy prophet Mohammad said to the muslims:

How would you be when Isa Ibne Mariam descends among you. And.....he will be the prophet....and he will be the prophet.....and he will be the prophet.......

Now you will like to ask me questions what does it mean that Issa is dead, and I still say that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a Messiah (Isa Ibne Mariam). Of course I can explain all these quesrtions at length. But time is not always available to me to give or quote long passages of these explanations.

To sum up, these phrases in the sayings of the prophet have been used to tell that the man who will come as Ibne Mariam will bear many similarities to Ibne Mariam. Like we see that in the ummah of Moses this prophet called Ibne Mariam came into the 14th century, so was this new Ibne Mariam to come in the 14th century of the death of prophet Mohammad.

Prophet also said that Imam Mehdi will come at the time when muslim ummah will have nothing left of Islam in it. The mosques will be full of people but empty of guidance. The people will go to seek guidance to their 'ulemas' but will see the monkeys and swines sitting over there....

In another saying he said: the 'ulemas' of Islam would be the worsy creature under the skies at that time. These will follow the path of the Jews so much so that if Jews committed adultry with their mothers, these will do the same.

Such was the condition when this Imam Mahdi and the Messiah appeared in this world. He strongly defended the deen-e-Islam in India and in the world so much so that even his staunchest enemies admitted he was doing a great service to Islam (look remarks from Mohammad Hussain Batalvi, Maulana Zafar Ali Khan, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad.....and so on)

As I said it all is a matter of time. If you have specific questions we can tackle them one by one. But you are putting questions arbitrarily, which is not the way to conduct a search for truth. I suggest you either contact your nearest Ahmadiyya Mission House or ask them one by one here on the forum.

Yes, there have been miracles and prophesies by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (s.a.w.) and the biggest miracle he performed was to kill the swine by his sword. These are all spiritual phrases, and you should not get upset by them. By swine it is meant as the dirty creatures, the Christians. And by sword it is meant to be the sword of arguments and logic.

When the Promised Messiah started his advent he was not with too many followers. The opponents had vowed to finish his small Jamaat in no time. So was the claim of all his opponent mullahs. And so was said by Zia ul Haq. But they all have passed away without seeing the Jamaat Ahmadiyya finish and destroyed. However, they themselves have passed away in great dishonour. Is'nt it a miracles itself that every powerful and resourceful enemy of his Jamaat has died un-successfully whereas his Jamaat has gone forward in leaps and bounds.

One day, in the times of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself, they could be counted on fingers, but today they are more than 20 million in the world, and spreading fast everywhere.
Even the Kings and the dictators have failed to check the progress of Jamaat Ahmadiyya.

...

[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 15, 2001).]

[a1shah]

Qadianism is nothing more than a political conspiracy by the west to use as a weapon and asset against the Muslims. But Allah Says:

"Nay we hurl the Truth
Against falsehood , and it knocks
Out its brain, and behold,
Falsehood doth perish
Ah! Woe to you
For the false things
Ye ascribe to Us." (21:18)

[a1shah]

Your qadiania lies are exposed by the following quranic verse:

[an-Nisa' 4:159] There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -

The point to note is that this Ayah is saying that ‘one can ONLY BELIEVE in Esa(as) BEFORE HIS DEATH and on the day of Judgement.

In the bible the verse John 5:7

"During the days of Jesus life were taken up on earth, he offered up prayers and petition with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from his death, and he was heard because of his reverence submission."

Also in James 5:16"the prayer of the righteous man is powerful and effective"

If a prayer from a righteous person such as Jesus was ‘heard’ this means it was answered by Allah, hence this also invalidates the claim that Jesus was crucified.

Allah's (swt) blessings be upon our Master of prophets (pbuh), Muhammed Mustafa, who was sent as a mercy to mankind and is the seal of the prophets, and upon his holy ahl bait.

ws

[babar123]

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**Your qadiania lies are exposed by the following quranic verse:

[an-Nisa' 4:159] There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -

The point to note is that this Ayah is saying that ‘one can ONLY BELIEVE in Esa(as) BEFORE HIS DEATH and on the day of Judgement.

In the bible the verse John 5:7

"During the days of Jesus life were taken up on earth, he offered up prayers and petition with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from his death, and he was heard because of his reverence submission."

Also in James 5:16"the prayer of the righteous man is powerful and effective"

If a prayer from a righteous person such as Jesus was ‘heard’ this means it was answered by Allah, hence this also invalidates the claim that Jesus was crucified.

Allah's (swt) blessings be upon our Master of prophets (pbuh), Muhammed Mustafa, who was sent as a mercy to mankind and is the seal of the prophets, and upon his holy ahl bait.

ws**
[/quote]

Probably you are trying to prove the following in your own words.

'hence this also invalidates the claim that Jesus was crucified.'

Mr,

We 100% gree to it.

The Ayet you have presented was revealed against the belief of Jews who say that Jesus was crusified.

We are totally against the belief of Jews.

Quran has clearly mentioned that Hazrat Isa was not killed on cross.

We believe in this Qurnic Declaration.

[a1shah]

Why don't you read what I wrote just one more time.

The qur'an is telling you that you can only believe in Jesus BEFORE he dies. It is not referring to the cross as the verse preceding it was.

This verse becomes general and tells YOU that a believer will believe in Jesus before he dies.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is an unbeliever.

[babar123]

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**Why don't you read what I wrote just one more time.

The qur'an is telling you that you can only believe in Jesus BEFORE he dies. It is not referring to the cross as the verse preceding it was.

This verse becomes general and tells YOU that a believer will believe in Jesus before he dies.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is an unbeliever.

**
[/quote]

"before he dies" does not mean "before jesus dies"

"before he dies" mean "before that follower of scripture dies"

because it is proved from more than one other Quranic verses that Hazrat Isa has alredy died.