RE: Sholay – [Jesus Ascension VS Jesus Death]

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

Sholay Sahib !!!!

The return of Messiah is not applied literarily. It's an idiomatic and symbolic use of words, which are used in religion by the name of Istaaras. It's all in Quran.

In Sura Jumma, Quran says*......And there will be others who will join them later on....* The Companions asked who are those who will come in later days. The Prophet put his hand on the shoulders of Salman Farsi and said they will be from his denomination.

In all the seven books of Ahadith which are called Sahah-e-Sitta, it is clearly said by prophet that the Messiah will descend in the later times, and he will be a prophet.....and he will be a prophet.....and he will be a prophet......and he will be a prophet......

Now we all know that Isa Igne Mariam is a prophet of God, and this all written in Quran. So no muslim person will deny his being a prophet. Why the the Prophet stressed upon the companions four times that he will be the prophet. Clearly, he was not talking of the first Messiah, but it was the one wo was to come on the foot prints of Isa Ibne mariam. God has many times used these *Istaaras*before, so why now to object to it.

**
Now, Mr. Sholay, there is only one way for all of you to run away from the facts. And the way is that you all declare that you do not believe in Ahadith and that these are false.....**

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[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 18, 2001).]

62

[quote]
Originally posted by NMK Hajana:
**
Sholay Sahib !!!!

In all the seven books of Ahadith which are called Sahah-e-Sitta, it is clearly said by prophet that the Messiah will descend in the later times, and he will be a prophet.....and he will be a prophet.....and he will be a prophet......

Now we all know that Isa Igne Mariam is a prophet of God, and this all written in Quran. So no muslim person will deny his being a prophet. Why the the Prophet stressed upon the companions four times that he will be the prophet. Clearly, he was not talking of the first Messiah, but it was the one wo was to come on the foot prints of Isa Ibne mariam. God has many times used these *Istaaras*before, so why now to object to it.

**
Now, Mr. Sholay, there is only one way for all of you to run away from the facts. And the way is that you all declare that you do not believe in Ahadith and that these are false.....**

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[This message has been edited by NMK Hajana (edited June 18, 2001).]**
[/quote]

You're uttering nonsense, where are your references?

Don't fabricate ahaadeeths, you are creating a lie against Muhammed(saw) and fooling no one except yourself.

63

Abdul Basit!!!

These Ahadith have been quoted here on the forum hundred and one times. But perhaps you want to while away the time. If I give you the reference of these Ahadith will it be enough for you to believe what Ahmadies are saying the truth.....???

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64

NMK and CO

When I stated the Qur'aan, I meant the Qur'aan. Not The A'Hadeeth.

Therefore you have just proved that no Messiah was to come after anyone, let alone after Hazrat Isa AS.

I'm only using your own reason of thought.

Moving onto A'Hadeeth, the only rubbish you can elaborate on, is that Mirza was that Messiah according to A'Hadeeth. Apart from this there is NOT ONE, I repeat NOT ONE Prophecy that can be attributed to Mirza in line with all authentic A'Hadeeth.

I'm giving you lot of opportunity after opportunity to prove me wrong, but all you do defy Logic.

Mirza Ghulam was NOT the descendant of the Prophet PBUH, no matter which way you look at it. Mirza's Geneology doesn't even go back to Isaac, let alone Ishmael. Therefore this is the first of the false claims.

The following are all the accepted A'Hadeeth relating to the Messiah. Can you please confirm which one of the followng were actually fulfilled. Please just ONE will do for now!

The Promised Messiah is none other than hazrat Isa bin Maryam(pbuh) (Jesus);

He is a man of medium height and moderate complexion inclined to the red and white colors and of lank hair;

He will descend among Muslims, near the White Eastern Minaret of Damascus, Syria, clad in two yellow sheets (dyed with saffron), while leaning on the shoulders of two angels;

He will pray behind Imam Mahdi;

He will fight with, chase, and kills Dajjal (the Anti-Christ) at the gate of Ludd;

Messiah will rule justly according to the Laws of Islam and not Gospel;

People of the Book will accept him as a Messenger of Allah(SWT) and will embrace Islam (Quran 4:159); subsequently, Cross (Christianity) and Jizyah tax (on non-Muslims) will be abolished;

He will encounter attack of Gog and Magog and will be victorious;

Islam and justice will rule, oppression will be eliminated, and no fighting (War) will be needed (will be abolished);

Everyone will be well off and hatred, jealousy, and grudge will disappear;

Messiah will perform Hajj and/or Umra;
He will get married, remain married for 19 years before his death and have children;

He will die after living on earth for 40 years and will be buried in a grave next to the holy Prophet(SAW). His advent is a sign for the closeness of the day of Judgment.

Afterwards, all believers will die before the advent of the day of Judgment and the other prophecies will take place.

Finally, do you believe that the above A'Hadeeth are correct and if not please specify.

If you cannot answer this, please don't waste my time, this subject is getting too boring and repetative for me now.

65

haha there are NO such ahaadeeths.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

You can give me references on where these can be found, I will look further.

[This message has been edited by Abdul Basit (edited June 18, 2001).]

66

TO ALL AHMEDIES AND QADIANIS

Mirza Ghulam himself stated that he was a Liar and Imposter.

Do you still believe in him when he told you not to believe in him as he is a LIAR.

Here is the nail in the coffin for all Ahmedies.

Mirza Ghulam states:

"To Judge my truthfulness or lies, there is no better test than my prophecies."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 19, P. 288)

"To turn out a liar in his own prophecy is biggest disgrace of disgraces."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 15, P. 382)

And here are the Prophecies which turned out to be LIES, confirming the LIEHOOD of Mirza.

His prophecy that he (Mirza) will live to be 80 or more years old;
(He died when he was only 68 year old.)

His prophecy that he would marry Muhammadi Begum, before his death;
(He never did marry Muhammadi Begum.)

The claim (and Mubahala challenge) that Moulvi Sanaullah of Amristar, his arch opponent who had openly called him a liar and an impostor, will die before him;
("The liar will die first" - Mirza died first!)

His prophecy that Dr. Abdul Hakim, one of his opponents who had called him a liar during an open debate, will die within Mirza's life time;
(he said "The liar will die first". But, Mirza died first!)

The prophecy (and Mubahala challenge) that Mr. Abdullah Atham, a Christian who had debated with Mirza Ghulam and put him to shame, will die before him;
(Mirza had said: "the liar will die first" - Yet, Mirza died first!)

His revelation that Allah(SWT) will bestow upon him a great new son, a sign of Allah(SWT)'s presence and proof of his prophethood;
(Mirza died without having another son.)

His claim that Allah(SWT) had revealed to him that he would marry many more virtuous women;
(After the prophecy, he did not marry anyone else.)

His prophecy that he (Mirza) will marry a widow, before his death;
(After the prophecy, he did not marry anyone else.)

His prophecy that he will die in Mekkah or Medina.
(Mirza died in the city of Lahor; he never saw Mekkah or Medina.)

I give an open challenge to any Ahmedy to refute these claims.

67

And Brother sholay, if you need scanned picture of those claims from actual books, let me know.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

68

Abdul Basit,

Thanks for the offer brother, but you know as well as I do that they know very well exactlty what we are referring to.

They most probably got the literature at home and are trying to work out a more Liberal translation and meaning for the statements!

69

I wish you could understand simple english.. THIS THREAD IS NOT PERTAINED TO AHMADIS/ QADIANIS/ ETC except ISA IBN MARYAM’s physical ascention.

ager abhi bhi baat demagh main nahin samatee to ja ker kissi aur say is ka matlab pooch lo…

don’t know which teaching of the Holy Prophet(sa) are you following. I guess, disgracing and humiliating others is your only motive over here… and that’s how you want to prove yourself the righteous one…

sholay I am sorry to say you one pathatic individual… go home, first get yourself dressed up in high moral etiquettes, then come and talk in front of the world.

Coming back your lousy meaning of RAFA ULLAH ILAYHAY… all I have asked you is that if jesus is raised physically then WHERE IS YOUR ALLAH AT THAT TIME? and where he is now?.. only a physical thing moves towards a physical one and spiritual towards spiritual… by saying he was raised towards Allah means that Allah is physical object located in a fixed location somewhere in space. Just like christians believe that Jesus was sitting next to Allah, so you are.. ther is no much difference.

All I know about Quran is that it is a SPIRITUAL BOOK, and to me physical ascension of Jesus CARRY ABSOLUTELY NO SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE, or does it?…

You are trying to be a smart arabic scholar, let me take you back to the first verse you quoted.. i.e 3:55… it read as.. “wa is qalal laho ya eesa inni mutawafika wa rafayoka…”,](http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/arabic/3_55.gif)…

Tell me which Grammer tense you are applying here for the word RAFA here and please do answer this one also, what is the meaning of MUTAWAFFI in the verse, also support your argument from quran (you may use hadith or arabic literature to proove this point)

Be serious and avoid mud slinging, if you cant respect others then go back where you came from.…

PS: don’t worry as time permit I promise I will reply to your fake cut&paste job.

***** zameen tumhara kuch nahin bigar saktee ager aasmaan say taluq pukhta ho *****

70

Zalim

You have actually got the nerve to preach Arabic, when you cannot even speak or read the language.

You actually believe that the Qur'aan is only a Spiritual Book and not related to the Physical elements, despite teaching Physical Sciences and confirming the Pysical and Spiritual balances of Creation.

MY oh My.

I know exactly what type of sentencing is used for the word Rafa including whether it's Informative or Declarative in addition to the question I posed to you.

It's clearly obvious that you haven't a clue about what I've asked and have in turn become stuck, so please let's just leave it at that.

You was very quick to preach Arabic pastings without realising that some people do actually read, write and understand the language.

For the record, Rafa is used as an Adverstative sentence due to starting with 'Nay' and the meaning is Declarative due to some kind of desire being present or a question is asked.

The Declarative sentence has ten kinds:

Order
Prohibitive
Interrogative
Hypothetical or Optative
Probability
Contract
Vocative
Supplication
Oath
Exclamatory

Now GET LOST.