Faisal - I am talking about why is she having a hard time in the court system of Pakistan proving her case of being gang raped when all that is needed is her word. From what I understand there is only a few of the people involved in jail, others were let out by Pakistan court due to lack of evidence, am I remebering this right?
There was a whole village as witness due to her being driven naked from one end to another after the rape occured, not to mention the public rape, yet was cited as having no evidence.
PD - I wasn’t even going to touch that part of the ridiculousness of proving a rape. Like anyone would do that with witnesses
If you are talking about Mukhtaran Mai case, then its not messed up because Islam is stopping the punishment to criminals, but most likely because the criminals have connections and are using pressure over law enforcement agencies to mess up the case. This is a sad case of using undue influence to subvent justice system and is a black eye for Pakistan. To be fair, the justice system in Pakistan is pretty screwed up, and this case is just another example of corruption and incomepetence.
And ironic as it may sound, cases like that actually embolden the supporters of Islamic sharia who say that the whole British Common Law based justice system, that we currently have in Pakistan, India etc.. is inferior to sharia system, and hence Pakistan should implement full sharia system. In this particular instance, a correctly applied sharia ruling will most likely result in a quick capital punishment for rapists, based on testimony by the woman and physical evidence available in the case.
Faisal - well, all women are certainly not truthful about rape either, I am sure (in fact I know) that there are women of low/no character who claim rape, just as there should be proper attention given to a woman who claims this, also medical exams, photos, etc. are needed to back things up. I mean if sharia law is implemented is there a way to fairly try all without having a he said/she said slug fest?
PD.. since today you are having trouble reading, so let me put it simply. Mukhtaran Mai case, that minah_pa, is referring to, has nothing to do with sharia law. It is the British Common Law based justice system that failed her. And its not because the law is bad, but because those who implement it are corrupt.
The modern investigation techniques still apply, regardless of which justice system you talk about. So for rape, its probably not just woman’s word, but also physical evidence, including medical evidence, that will be considered. Witnesses are neither required, nor expected in such cases.
Well minnah I gave you the answer in another thread about cross posting my replies.
The short answer is, if the witnesses are not provided, she/he has to bear the witness of Allah. As Quran said about it.
.In Surah AN-NISA chapter number 4 verse number 15
"And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. "
And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
Repentance with Allah is only for those who do evil in ignorance, then turn (to Allah) soon, so these it is to whom Allah turns (mercifully), and Allah is ever Knowing, Wise.
And repentance is not for those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says: Surely now I repent; nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers. These are they for whom We have prepared a painful chastisement.
^Yes Minah, you can say not the eye witnesses but the witnesses of the character of the person. Like you, if some one abuse you of such a bad thing. Your relatives and friends who witnessed your character very closely, they can bear witness on your innocence.
Actually these ayahs were revealed for proving Umul Mo'mineen Ayesha as innocent. Do you know the real happening about Umul Mo'mineen Ayesha?
Any body there who thinks posters will come to concensus on this very very important legal issue which is supposedly right there in the book written very clearly and simply for everyone to understand? I don't think so. There will be more questions at the end than before the discussion.
I have never seen two muslims agree on any shariah or legal points. Only things more than 3 muslims agree on is 1) America is bad and 2) Jews are rats and monkeys....and out of these 2nd one is not even their own opinion..
When a woman gets raped, isnt' it kinda obvious? Her psychological, emotional and physical health suffers. Are women such good actors taht they can convince a court psychiatrist (if it gets to trial) that they went thru such trauma? Maybe I'm watching too many Law and Order and othre cop shows...
Its pretty much like Michael Jackson trial. Where you don't necessarily need a witness to the actual act of molestation, but both sides of lawyers paraded a long line of character witnesses to show that their guy always behaves appropriately and is telling the truth.
For all those of you who think the court needs 4 witnesses:
Here's a few hadith's that are really surprising. I do not know how the Hudood Ordinance, etc are even allowed in Pakistan. Unless these Hadith are weak. Please, could someone check?
**During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa'il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah's messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you," but of the man who had raped her, he said, "Stone him to death." (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)
During the time when Umar (raa) was the Khalifah, a woman accused his son Abu Shahmah of raping her; she brought the infant borne of this incident with her to the mosque and publicly spoke about what had happened. Umar (raa) asked his son who acknowledged committing the crime and was duly punished right there and then. There was no punishment given to the woman. (Rauf)**
1- Hudood Ordinance has nothing to do with Islam. It takes part of Islam but rejct the second half of the matter. Basically it does not distinguish between rape [zina bil jabar] vs Adultery [Zina bil Raza]
2- As for Tirmidhi, No, it’s not a shia book. And as for the authenticity of the ahadeeth, I actually have read them somewhere else too.
C I think there is a reason there are 4 witnesses needed to prove zinna. For them to really know anything, and not testify based on some lies or personal agenda, they had to have been there or seen a tape of it. AND if someone decided to have an orgy then the sick freaks prolly shud be punished. AND if there was a tape of it that someone stole and decided to distribute well then the thief wud get punished as well (wdn't they?) AND if the couple decided to distribute this tape themselves...well then theyre freaks and ..yeah.
I think you have to be reeeeallly depraved to acutally do that so its rightfully applied in those cases. However, as we all know, even someone's lies or exaggerations can be enuff to ruin ones reputation and destroy their life..
