X-Factor
Actually Canada tries very hard to do so...and most western secular countries have a constitution to protect all their citizens not just the majority of the citizen belonging to a particular religious group. They have learnt and recoganized their historical mistakes and have tried very hard to correct them.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited July 21, 2000).]
rani,
forgot to answer my question, here it is again
will the society of New York accept "what is acceptable among dwellers of amazon"
or
will the society of New York "interfere and impose dress code and use it as tool to subjugate a group of human beings"
exactly xfactor. are US laws discriminatory and oppressive to those living in jungles and have yet to invent clothing?
rani, its a good thing to have more rules not a bad. its also good follow a faith if you beleive it leads to the right path. if we dont have the gutts, understanding to follow them... then we shouldnt be blaming the rules, but ourselves. So if the police doesnt let you walk naked in the streets here... u dont blame the police do you?
Because you have a fear of being put into jail.... you follow the rules that Police and lawmakers make for you. Translate the same example to religion.... where the fear of HELL fire in afterlife is used to promote truth and honesty and bad actions like rape murder etc. But for that you need faith in your religion and a beleive in life after this short life.
[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited July 21, 2000).]
Salafi,
Actually they don't because they had the intelligence to learn from their past mistakes....I don't want this to be a mud slinging match...that is the reason I was tried to avoid you.
P.S. We are talking about appropriate dress code for a particular society. Most people in Amazon go naked and it is accepted in their society and not considered bad...it is the clergy and Mullah that have problems, society of New York doesn't care.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited July 21, 2000).]
Mundayaa,
Society is continously evolving and changing unless those rules are changed to accomodate the changing needs of the society they are no good.
Nobody has seen hell or heaven, one has to be good for goodness sake because whatever goes around comes around. Fear of hell is not a very effective deterrent, if that was so, we would not have such large numbers of corrupt religious leaders.
Rani,
then what is this
Los Angeles County - Ordinance 17.12.360, "Nudity and Disrobing": *01]
A) No person shall appear, bathe, unbathe, walk, change clothes, disrobe or be on any beach in such manner that the genitals, vulva, pubis, pubic symphysis, pubic hair, buttocks, natal cleft, perineum, anus, anal region or pubic hair region of any person, or any portion of the breast at or below the upper edge of the areola thereof of any female person, is exposed to public view, except in those portions of a comfort station, if any, expressly set aside for such purpose.
B) This section shall not apply to persons under the age of 10 years, provided such children are sufficiently clothed to conform to accepted community standards.
Salafi,
Very interesting, you have to keep in mind that County's governing body that has come up with these rules is an elected body if most people don't like their rules they will boot them out in next election...these rules are not written in stone and true for all times to come and I think they can also be challenged in court. These rules will change and canbe changed as people who are putting them in office change their views.
Rani,
therefore the people who are supposed to be leaders in the 'democratic world', as it stands at this moment and according to rani's wording "interfere and impose dress code and use it as tool to subjugate a group of human beings"
Salafi,
Did you read or understood anything I said in my post at all....read it before you come up this radiculous conclusion.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited July 21, 2000).]
...well, enlightening discussion...
...Judging others, maynot be a good idea...
...Bombay Kid, has the most logical statements throughout the thread...
...NY Ahmadi, you're right; jails are real, hell is not...but, what exactly IS reality...is it what WE know, or what exists beyond our imagination...
...Rani, what a beautiful name...seriously. The KRUX of all these problems is...insufficient knowledge of our OWN religion, and preaching it on...IF all of us, in true meanings, learn and follow our OWN faiths, yes we CAN live togather in peace...
...Bombay Kid, drinking has become a huge problem in all religions, and almost all the religions donot allow it...for a second forget about the hell...law of the land...it destroys your body inside out...slowly or in some cases rapidly get you hooked, decrease your morals...(so does other drugs)
...Rani, Chan ji, Mundaya, there are many many people from differant religions that are hypocrites, drunks, and portray their own religion in a bad manner...
...Just last night...in a function...one of the FedEx people...a muslim...with a beer in his hand, hugging and kissing this woman...this is not what Islam teaches...
...I had a Sikh friend, she had become Christisn...we worked togather...once she took me to a gathering in her home...
...there were two sections...younsters with blue jeans, upstairs, one girl with an american boyfriend, others very americanized in many ways...downstairs, were boring people( according to the new generation)...I preferred to stay downstairs...99% of them were extremly nice people...there was gupshup, laughter, good food, even mango icecream...Punjabi poetry...the grand father had graduated from Lahore, he spoke urdu...we talked...very interesting person...some were wearing turbons, while others weren't...I had to contribute in mahfal-e-mushaera...ghalib's poetry, they loved it...
...one of them, a doctor, a little liberal type...we talked alot...one of them really drunk saya...(saying about me) Es ne konsa palat ke ana e...I looked at him, and said, maybe I will...
...I learnt a great deal from them, about their religion...an unforgettable experience...at one instant, discussing the gurus and the K's, I said, does your religion allow you to drink! everyone kinda got quiet and looked at eachother, the doctor said, no not really...they were all 99% good people, but what I saw was a distance betwean the faith and actions...
...Rani ji, our faiths are cooroding due to (mostly) the western life-style. We come here, and we have to fit in...If our land was not luted by these white-westerners, we wouldnot be here...accepting influence and taking it out on eachother backhome...
...Let's not insult eachother because we don't agree with eachother...we don't because we are differant...many colors make a rainbow...it is incomplete without all of us...
...
Rani says,
Did you read or understood anything I said in my post at all....read it before you come up this radiculous conclusion<<
you said before >>The problem arises when state or a religious body interferes and imposes dress code and use it as tool to subjugate a group of human beings.<<
therefore, "state or a religious body interferes and imposes dress code" = "use it as tool to subjugate a group of human beings"
so I said that the "state" (in this case Los Angeles(and many USA states)) "body interferes and imposes dress code" = "use it as tool to subjugate a group of human beings"
I only quoted your wording verbatim, except that I substitued Los Angeles for "state".
still difficult to understand, no problem, i'll make it even simpler:
"The problem arises when Los Angeles or a religious body interferes and imposes dress code and use it as tool to subjugate a group of human beings"
[This message has been edited by salafi (edited July 21, 2000).]
Salafi,
In democracy these rules can be challenged in the court of law. With 'State' I meant if this was a part of the constitution- something that cannot be changed without going to great lengths.
Bladamunda007,
...Let's not insult eachother because we don't agree with eachother...we don't because we are differant...many colors make a rainbow...it is incomplete without all of us...<<
Very well said, if we truely believed what you have said and practiced it, we will have no Kashmir problem, no Jehad against Kaffirs...no such terms as Kafirs and believers (all of us believe in something). India would be still one country. History taught in Pakistan will not start with advent of muslims on the sub-continent.
We need people like you to bring peace to sub-continent, it good to hear from you.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Rani:
**X-Factor
Actually Canada tries very hard to do so... **
"Tries" being the key word....and its definitely to be appreciated.
and most western secular countries have a constitution to protect all their citizens not just the majority of the citizen belonging to a particular religious group.
But is it enforced? are all the people crying about injustice in US and UK and rest of Europe just faking it?
Rani,
whether they make these laws more lenient or stricter in the future is a different matter. We are talking about the reality as it stands today in Los Angeles and America. When they actually change these laws then you can make your claims of 'freedom'
but the reality as it is today 'Los Angeles and many American states impose a dress code upon their citizens'
therefore, i'll quote again your statement "The problem arises when Los Angeles or a religious body interferes and imposes dress code and use it as tool to subjugate a group of human beings"
What their constitution says is irrelevant here, because we are looking at the reality present in their society.
and you also stated regarding New York >>it is the clergy and Mullah that have problems, society of New York doesn't care<<
This is clearly incorrect, because the law enforcement(chosen by the society) will put you behind bars if you went out completely naked.
New York penal law 245.01, Exposure of a Person: *23]
Appearance in a public place with private or intimate parts unclothed or exposed. "For purposes of this section, the private or intimate parts of a female person shall include that portion of the breast which is below the top of the areola. This section shall not apply to the breastfeeding of infants or to any person entertaining or performing in a play, exhibition, show, or entertainment."
are all the people crying about injustice in US and UK and rest of Europe just faking it?<<
Most Indians i meet feel they are better treated in US then in their own home country - more opportunities and way less corruption - this not to say that people don't miss their home country.
US and Canada actually serve as a model of social justice and equal treatment for people of all religions. Though not perfect but they try to strive for justice and eqality for all and believe in it.
Salafi,
They will put me behind bars because it is not socially acceptable, nothing to do with religion...rules in democracy are made to please the majority of the society. In French Rivera there are nude beaches because majority people support it.
Do you know that in Victorian age it was unacceptable to wear one layer of clothing women wore many layers ....they don't do that any more....these rules are not written in stone.
Do you know that in Victorian age it was unacceptable to wear one layer of clothing women wore many layers …they don’t do that any more…these rules are not written in stone. <<<
see rani your theory is fundamentally flawed. at one hand you are willing to follow whatever rules Police has written in their handbooks for which the punishment can be enforced to you IF you get caught. There are a couple of things wrong with it… what about all those times when you dont get caught? Police isnt watching over you 24-7 is it? So essentially if you can fool the police you can get away with anything… rape, murder, lieing, cheating, robbery and any other bad action performed by a human being. On the other hand for those beleive God is watching over them 24-7 and cant get away with anything bad, criminal that they do. And the punishment for such acts is equal for all humans… be it muslims, christians, sikhs or whatever else. Also what about places where there is no Police… the jungles of amazon that you liberals talk about and their nude ways of life have no Police. so if someone can get away with nudity, they can also get away with murder and rape as well. also we are living in good times where there is Police to see this doesnt happen but only some years ago when there was no Police, how do you think people were stopped from doing such acts?
Ppl have a choice to go to a nude beach or NOT if they dont want themselves or their kids to be exposed to nudity. Now in a guwardawara where people take their kids to learn about sikhism, or a mosque where you want them to learn about Islam… a nude molvi or a nude sikh isnt exactly what we want to see. So their should be some law that stops such perverts to do what they like in public. And thats what sikh gurus are trying to enforce today… the train has finally reached the station.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited July 22, 2000).]
Mundayaa,
I don't think you have capacity to understand, what I am trying to say. You want to enforce rules with dandaa and prove that they are for the good for the people.
Sikh scriptures only preach spirituality and values, followers are left to device their own rules based on these spiritual values. With this I rest my case.
Rani says >>rules in democracy are made to please the majority of the society<<
ok, tell me if sometime in the future "the majority of the society" chooses to accept paedophiles (sexual child abuse), would you be prepared to go along with that and would you say "yes, that is correct because that is what most of your society is pleased with"
for we know in the past many of the socities did not accept abortion, for they considered it to be murder of children, yet it is perfectly okay nowadays because of "democracy".
and do you accept that abortion(murder of children) should be made legal if the society wishes it to be that way.