In another thread, Rani explained that everything important about religion came from the inside. This is, she explained an eastern philosophy. She said it is something very hard to understand for people who follow a book or rules blindly. Here are some rules for sikhs from the sikh homepage.
I see that turbans are mandatory for sikh men according to this site anyway. Can you comment on these rules Rani in light of your earlier statement?
Kesh:
Long unshorn hair. A symbol of spirituality. The Kesh reminds a Khalsa to behave like the Guru’s. It is a mark of dedication and group consciousness, showing a Khalsa’s acceptance of God’s will. Long hair have long been a common element of many spiritual prophets of various religions such as Jesus, Moses and Buddha.
Dastar:
Turban.
A symbol of royalty and dignity. Historically the turban has been held in high esteem in eastern and middle eastern cultures. Guru Gobind Singh transformed this cultural symbol into a religious requirement so that the Khalsa would always have high self-esteem. It differentiates Sikhs from other religious followers who keep long hair but wear caps or keep matted hair. The turban cannot be covered by any other head gear or replaced by a cap or hat. The turban is mandatory for Sikh men and optional for Sikh women.
Kangha:
Comb. A symbol of hygiene and discipline as opposed to the matted unkept hair of ascetics. A Khalsa is expected to regularly wash and comb their hair as a matter of self discipline.
Kara:
Steel bracelet. A symbol to remind the wearer of restraint in their actions and remembrance of God at all times.
Kachha:
Drawers. A symbol signifying self control and chastity.
Kirpan:
Ceremonial Sword. A symbol of dignity and the Sikh struggle against injustice. It is worn purely as a religious symbol and not as a weapon.
I think this is for amritdhari sikhs. sahajdhari, i.e. who do not grow hair are as much part of panth. maybe chanmahi and rani can correct me if i am wrong.
Turban is a physical dimension introduced by 10th Guru. Sikhism has two kind of followers Keshdari and Sehjdari. Keshdari are the ones that keep hair and wear turbans and Sehjdari are without turbans and both believe in Guru Granth Sahib.
Everything is inside oneself comes from the following couplet in Guru Granth Sahib
"Sub Kuch Undaar Bahaar Nahi
Bahaar Khoja Tai Bharm Bhalvi"
Translation - everything is inside oneself not outside, if you look for it outside you are getting in baseless illusions.
There are many other couplets in Guru Granth Sahib outlining the same concept.
I decided sometime back not to actively participate in religious matters but I think Xtreme might have this sincere question and I will try to answer it sincerely. I am not trying to convince anyone that Sikhism is the best or the only path to be one with God... So I hope I am honest in my opinon based on my understanding of the issue.
Khalsa is a baptised sikh, the one who has taken the amrit of Guru (hence the word amritdhari). A Sikh after being baptised has to follow certain symbols and principles for his/her daily life and some of those are the ones listed above by Xtreme. As for this inside and outside stuff, it is too deep for my tiny brain:) But of what I understand is that these are symbols/signs which represent his inner qualities and are not the symbols/objects to worship. Most people construe it as if a baptised Sikh is supposed to pray to these symbols or worship them. Not true. They are supposed to be outside signs of what is inside. Of course one can have all these outward signs and still not be the same form inside, that is what is called 'bhaekhi', the fake ones....and there are plenty.:)
Male Sikhs wear turbans while baptised females some wear small round turbans and others cover their heads with dupatta. This applies to baptised ones only. For others it is optional and more a cultural issue. Who is baptised? one who wants to. There is no mandatory rule that all of them have to be baptised. One who believes he can follow the more organised and principled way of life of being a Khalsa gets himself baptised and keeps all these symbols plus recitation and understanding of holy scriptures and doing amal on it. Other Sikhs like me and many others can recite, understand and do amal on holy scriptures and achieve the same salvation, the oneness with God. So it is a matter of choice, does one want to be baptised or not. It is not mandatory. There is no penalty(sazah) on ones who don't get baptised, which means it is free choice. You take it or leave it. Even if you take it and decide to leave it later there is no punishment for that....only hope that they will come back.
There is difference in giving people free will to do something(be it covering their head or bodies or showing off takhnay); and making it heavenly order and making it law of the land.
Does that mean being nude is ok? That is a social issue. Humans were naked. God made them naked zillion years ago and on their own they figured out over time how to cover themselves and save them from harsh environments. There is nothing Godly in that. If one cann't control himself/herself from looking at naked flesh, he/she has long way to go on the path of spirituality and clothes or no clothes or how much clothes is least of his/her problems.
As we can see, all rules and rituals have some basis, but that does not mean they are the be all and end all. But they have their purpose.
Rani, next time you wonder about the rules in Quran, or outer rituals, have a look at Chan's reply and try applying those principles to Islamic rituals. There's not as much difference as you think.
Mr. Xtreme,
But you can say that to people who are ridiculing Hindu beliefs too, right ? Something like idol worship -- it may seem silly but some people do believe in it. On top of that most people here have the impression that Hinduism sanctions or mandates idol worship -- which is false ! I am not an expert on religion but I'll tell you what I know from my experience of having worked with and been friends with a lot of Sikhs. First of all whatever "rules" may be written in the scriptures, NOT all people decide to follow them blindly. This goes for a lot of Sikhs, Christians and Hindus. If I am not mistaken Sikhs are not supposed to either drink or smoke, but a lot of my Sikh aquaintances used to drink liquor (in moderation) and they were not bad people. They worked hard, helped other people (ran social organisations etc) were courteous to other people, never hurt anyone. Why should people like them care whether they will go to heaven or hell if they break a few religious "rules" ?
which is false ! I am not an expert on religion but I'll tell you what I know from my experience of having worked with and been friends with a lot of Sikhs. First of all whatever "rules" may be written in the scriptures, NOT all people decide to follow them blindly. This goes for a lot of Sikhs, Christians and Hindus. <<<
excellent stuff. i guess that explains the reasons why more and more hindus/christians and sikhs are turning towards Islam for guidance. thank you for elaborating why the followers of these faiths are turning their backs towards them.
chan, according to the post by extreme.... turban is MANDATORY for sikhs. i guess you learnt it today along with the rest of us. heck and we are not even sardars.
i think extreme has done well in getting his point through. lets hope rani can make a come back without initiating another mudslinging contest.
Rani, next time you wonder about the rules in Quran, or outer rituals, have a look at Chan's reply and try applying those principles to Islamic rituals. There's not as much difference as you think.<<
I have no idea what you are reading. I find no similarity between Sikh rituals and Islamic rituals. Sikh rituals are not part of scriptures or law of the land and are mandatory. I am saying the same thing what Chan has said ....there is no difference. He went in detail and explained it very well...I did a quick job because of time constraint.
Read below excerpts from my post, I didn't say that Sehjdari are not Sikh are lesser Sikhs and will be punished
Turban is a physical dimension introduced by 10th Guru. Sikhism has two kind of followers Keshdari and Sehjdari. Keshdari are the ones that keep hair and wear turbans and Sehjdari are without turbans and both believe in Guru Granth Sahib.<<
Now read Chan post ...read carefully he clearly mentions that their is no "no penalty" it is clearly upto individuals to follow a ritual or not.
There is no penalty(sazah) on ones who don't get baptised, which means it is free choice. You take it or leave it. Even if you take it and decide to leave it later there is no punishment for that....only hope that they will come back.<<
Below Chan has outlined the difference between Sikh rituals and rituals you are talking about
There is difference in giving people free will to do something(be it covering their head or bodies or showing off takhnay); and making it heavenly order and making it law of the land.<<
You seem to have read something else...or just pretending to be dumb. I hope you learn something by reading the replies and learning about other religions.
P.S. You challenged me about my statement regarding innerself being everything and I provided you with a couplet from Guru Granth Sahib .
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited July 19, 2000).]
mundyaa,
I guess we all agree that you're the resident expert on "true Islam" and I am also willing to accept that your views are that of a mainstream Muslim guy.....but your knowledge of other religion sucks (no offence), so it would be better if you don't tell Sikhs what is permitted in their religion -- what they choose to follow is their concern.
I believe that all religions lead to God and I donot believe that Hinduism is the only "true path". I think that you believe that Islam is the only "true path"....I guess thats where your problem lies. Our religion and our nation's constitution allows people to convert to other religions (of their own free will, NOT forcibly), so I feel that its great that people are converting to other religions from Hinduism -- lets hope they'll find peace of mind and get what they're looking for.
bombaykid, my knowledge of other religions might not be upto par. but maybe thats cos you guys have done a poor job in explaining your religion to others? i’ve been visiting this forum for 2 years now… never have i seen you guys trying to explain things about your religion sincerely.
your efforts of explaining your religion are those of a crook hiding and twisting facts when it comes to ur religions. our friend chan here just tried to claim in the thread “on dress codes” that turban is purely a cultural thing and has little to do with religion. yet when extreme pointed out from their religious sources that turban is MANDATORY for sikhs… he got very defensive. seems like you guys either have no idea about your religion… or just like you said earlier dont give a crap about it.
similarly… caste system is part of hinduism, there are 300 million shoodars that exist in india today. everyone knows why they are there. yet hindus of this forum have lied through their teeth by saying that caste system isnt an integral part of hinduism. the scriptures you guys put up here are non-practical boring fairy tales that no one is interested in. since they have nothing to do with real life. they do not explain why hinduism has allowed the existence of millions of devdasies and other religious prostitutes. the other day another one of you hindus lied again that even idol worshipping isnt part of hinduism either.
rani, now that you know turban is madatory for sikhs. if you apply the same rule of thumb that you apply to muslims who make it mandatory for women/men to cover their bodies… dont you think its abnoxious, stupid, oppressive etc? but i guess you wont say that cos thats what you follow.
so it would be better if you don't tell Sikhs what is permitted in their religion -- what they choose to follow is their concern
better tell it to Rani and few others here who jump up on any opportunity to gutter mouth against Islam w/o understanding the underlying concepts or using a bit of their brains that is if they got some.
KK the brains. When your religion starts singling out “Kafirs” and “non-believers”, do you think that Kafirs have no right to tell you where to shove that kinda teachings? It would only get better when Mullas stop mentioning “Kuffar” and stick with their own people and their own problems.
mundyaa..I had said that idol worship is NOT mandatory in Hinduism -- I stand by what I said. I have not lied -- if I don't know certains things about religion I prefer to keep my mouth shut, and donot make a fool out of myself like some others we know here !! First of all I prefer not to reply to your posts because I think your views are crap (no offence -- just my views) and you keep shooting your mouth off without complete knowledge about the facts of a religion. I only replied since you had given reference to my post. My knowledge about my religion may not be much but I sure know a lot more than you.
NYAhmadi the butt - no mullah has come on this site to shoot blanks about the plight of shudhars in that rat infested country called hindustan.
So mullah must stop talking about kuffar, but the brahmins & bigots of christian west can thump their chest all they want against Islam - twisted logic it is.
Mundyaa babbles,"our friend chan here just tried to claim in the thread "on dress codes" that turban is purely a cultural thing and has little to do with religion. yet when extreme pointed out from their religious sources that turban is MANDATORY for sikhs.... he got very defensive"
Please clarify that where I said Turban is cultural thing for baptised sikhs as mentioned in this original post listing the 5 K's? Below is the cut and paste what I said in the other thread:
regarding Sikhs Hair and turbans....if one looks deep into the issue and one will find that it is about cultural and historical factors and Sikhs need to have a distinct identity to survive in the long run in the middle of the subcontinent than anything to do with who is going to go to heaven or not. Keeping hair and turban is no guarantee for heaven...<<
What I said was the need and evolution of how wearing a turban for baptised Sikhs is a must. Being a baptised SIkh is not a must(but encouraged), so logic says turban is not Mandatory as one can chose not to be baptised and not wear a turban.....
The things written as mandatory by Xtreme in the first post of this thread are for baptised Sikhs not for general populance. Lot of SIkhs who are not baptised wear turban too....and that is a cultural aspect. I was never baptised but I wore turban all the time and still do once in a while. No one had the authority to force me wear it and not wear it......
Even for baptised Sikhs, if one falls astray and gives up wearing all those symbols/signs, He/She is not killed for that...not even shunned off by others in a negative deragatory way.
One again, from my understanding, the inclusion of turban in the 5 K's for baptised Sikhs has its evolution in their history and culture.
Don't put words in my mouth again. I don't wanna discuss a serious matter like religion with any one in a manner that is deragatory or insulting to either one of us.
ChannMahi
Sher-e-Punjab
Posts: 1311 posted July 18, 2000 02:13 PM
ps: regarding Sikhs Hair and turbans…if one looks deep into the issue and one will find that it is about cultural and historical factors and Sikhs need to have a distinct identity to survive in the long run in the middle of the subcontinent than anything to do with who is going to go to heaven or not. Keeping hair and turban is no guarantee for heaven…
Inlight of what extreme has written… no matter how deep you look it doesnt change the fact that turban is mandatory for sikhs. and thats why a majority of sikhs wear it. you can make it sound as unnecessary and unimportant as you wish… by making it a part of culture and not religion. it doesnt change sikhism in anyway.
The things written as mandatory by Xtreme in the first post of this thread are for baptised Sikhs not for general populance. Lot of SIkhs who are not baptised wear turban too…and that is a cultural aspect. I was never baptised but I wore turban all the time and still do once in a while. No one had the authority to force me wear it and not wear it…
Even for baptised Sikhs, if one falls astray and gives up wearing all those symbols/signs, He/She is not killed for that…not even shunned off by others in a negative deragatory way.<<<<
** more fishy stuff again from you cm. are you claiming that anyone can wear anything that they want in a guwardwara and can NOT wear anything and he/she wont be forced to get out or shunned in a deragatory way? from the news i posted sikhs even objected to jeans and have made it MANDATORY for women not wear jeans. Now you can call them baptised sikhs but please show me a proof of a non-baptised sikh guwardawara where this kinda activity will be allowed? then contact ny and his family to do a parade in it. and call me up so I can call the POLICE so they can force their laws of indecent exposure on the likes of you non-baptised sikhs and non-muslims. See even these guys have SOME RULES AND LAWS. why are you so adamant on claiming that sikhism has not rules or laws… is quite understandable, you will do and say anything to put down Islam which has laws and rules for everything. **
Don’t put words in my mouth again. I don’t wanna discuss a serious matter like religion with any one in a manner that is deragatory or insulting to either one of us.
<<<<<
you are contradicting yourself here AGAIN… at one point you are claiming that non-baptised sikhs dont shun off people for their views. and that LIBERAL SIKHS let everyone do what they like. and in the same breath you are shunning me off for exploring sikhism and testing your liberal side. I dont see anything LIBERAL about the above statement… actually i see a CONSERVATIVE BAPTISED SIKH keen on defending his roots and religious teachings.
its ironic how we have no problem with the RULE AND LAWS of land… so when POLICE puts someone in jail for indecent exposure in public… we call it the law of land and follow it.
yet when a religion prescribes a dress code and warns of hell fire for not following its rules and principles we object to it. why?
so the likes of ny can go on and on about their liberal bs here and blame religions for prescribing a dress code TO ITS BELEIVERS. i wonder what they say to the POLICE when they get arrested? probably they shove the liberal stuff in their rear end. but… these empty pots make the most noise here.