Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

It is rule of Allah that, one may perform religious event at time or after time (Qiza) but not before time. Salah is religious event that depends on position of sun … and … start of month is religious event that depends on position of Moon. Ruling of Allah is such that religious events depending on position of heavenly bodies (Sun and Moon) happens at different places on earth at different times and different days. People living at different places should follow events according to its occurrence at place they live. When someone performs religious event before time intentionally and considers that right, then that person challenges rulings of Allah.

New Month starts day after Moonset do transition … that is it Passes Sunset time. The day Moonset passes sunset time, night that follows become ‘chand-raat’ or night of Moon … as night that starts from time of Sun-set had Moon in it because Moonset was after Sunset. … Actually Moonset should be at least 20 to 30 minutes after sunset so that there is possibility that Moon stays above horizon for some time and thus can be seen with ‘naked eyes’ after Sunset. Anyhow, even if one relies on calculation and leave possibility of sighting as criteria, still, minimum requirement should be that transition has happened … and that is, Moonset is After Sunset (at least few minutes after Sunset).

In UK, earliest sighting of Moon is possible in southern most part. Here is timing of Moonset and Sunset at different places in UK for Thursday 9th Sept … Now one can decide themselves if it is possible to see Moon after Sunset or not … and if that is not possible as Moon was not even there above horizon to see after Sunset, then that means there could be no EID on Friday 10th Sept.

Falmouth (southern most city in UK):
Sunset: 7.48 PM
Moonset: 7.46 PM
(Moonset 2 minutes before Sunset)

Plymouth:
Sunset: 7.44 PM
Moonset is at: 7.41 PM
(Moonset 3 minutes before Sunset)

Southampton:
Sunset: 7.33 PM
Moonset: 7.29 PM
(Moonset 4 minutes before Sunset)

London:
Sunset: 7.30 PM
Moonset: 7.24 PM
(Moonset 6 minutes before Sunset)

Birmingham:
Sunset: 7.36 PM
Moonset: 7.28 PM
(Moonset 8 minutes before Sunset)

Glasgow:
Sunset: 7.51 PM
Moonset: 7.34 PM
(Moonset 17 minutes before Sunset)

Thus, on Thursday (9th Sept 2010) … there is no place in UK where ‘Moonset is after Sunset’ and hence it is theoretically/practically impossible to sight Moon on Thursday. That means Eid in UK is not possible on Friday (10th of Sept). It is different matter that many do not care what Allah desires and would perform Eid on Friday due to desire of their local Mosque or King of Arabia.

**
Note:** According to Sunset and Moonset timing … Eid in Pakistan should be on Saturday 11th Sept … and same is true for UK. Eid in Sauds’ Arabia should be on Friday 10th Sept.

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

A misguided group calling themselves Muslim and people influenced by them again started two Eids problem in Pakistan (NWFP) as they wanted to observe Eid with Saudi Arabia on Friday … even when moon-sighting was not possible anywhere in Pakistan on Thursday and Pakistan Ruet-e-Hilal committee correctly decided that Eid is going to happen on Saturday. Same is happening in UK where Eid is impossible on Friday but these people have forced Muslims to observe Eid on Friday … hence I am writing to tell what Hadith says regarding this issue.

Q: Is it allowed in Islam that Muslims should follow Moon-Sighting that was observed at far away places (like Saudi Arabia)?

A: No, it is not allowed.

Reason … Why?

According to Hadith … Chapter 5 ‘Sahi Muslim’ … well, read the hadith yourself:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en…t.html#006.2391

Chapter 5: THERE IS A SIGHTING OF THE MOON FOR EVERY TOWN; THE SIGHTING AT ONE TOWN CANNOT BE HELD VALID FOR THE OTHER TOWN SITUATED AT A CONSIDERABLE DISTANCE FROM IT

Sahi Muslim: Book 006, Number 2391:
Kuraib reported that Umm Fadl, daughter of Harith, sent him (Fadl, i. e. her son) to Mu’awiya in Syria. I (Fadl) arrived in Syria, and did the needful for her. It was there in Syria that the month of Ramadan commenced. I saw the new moon (of Ramadan) on Friday. I then came back to Medina at the end of the month. Abdullah b. 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) asked me (about the new moon of Ramadan) and said: When did you see it? I said.: We saw it on the night of Friday. He said: (Did) you see it yourself? -I said: Yes, and the people also saw it and they observed fast and Mu’awiya also observed fast, whereupon he said: But we saw it on Saturday night. So we would continue to observe fast till we complete thirty (lasts) or we see it (the new moon of Shawwal). I said: Is the sightidg of the moon by Mu’awiya not valid for you? He said: No; this is how the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has commanded us. Yahya b. Yahya was in doubt (whether the word used in the narration by Kuraib) was Naktafi or Taktafi.

Above hadith shows that for Abdullah b Abbas, moon-sighting in Syria was not acceptable as Moon-sighting in Madina. Now do not think that moon-sighting in Syria was not acceptable to Abdullah b Abbas (RA) because Abdullah b Abbas thought that moon-sighted by Mu’awiya was not valid for him (as questioner asked him and mentioned in Hadith) … but it was because that is the right thing according to the teaching of Prophet (SAW) as mentioned by Abdullah b Abbas, that sighting has to be local. Various other hadith confirms that one should start and end fast either after sighting of the moon or after 30 days. There is no Hadith that says that moon-sighting should be after hearing of the news that moon is sighted at far away place.

Here are hadith from Bukhari and Muslim that clearly says that fast should start either after sighting of the moon or after 30 days of Shaban. Same is true for Ramadhan that it should end after sighting of moon or after 30 days. No where it says that to start and end fast after hearing the news of sighting from far-away place … validating hadith of Sahi Muslim: Book 006, Number 2391 … that moon-sighting to be followed for start of ‘Ramadhan’ or observing ‘Eids’ should be local sighting and not far away sightings.

Bukhari: Volume 3, Book 31, Number 131:
Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said, “The month (can be) 29 nights (i.e. days), and do not fast till you see the moon, and if the sky is overcast, then complete Sha’ban as thirty days.”

Sahi Muslim: Book 006, Number 2380:
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Observe fast on sighting it (the new moon) and break it on sighting it. But if (due to clouds) the actual position of the month is concealed from you, you should then count thirty (days).

There is no excuse for those who ended Shaban earlier (one wrong), started Ramadhan fasting earlier (second wrong … that is started fasting from 29th or 30th of Shaban considering that as Ramadhan fast), then claiming that they have completed 30 days fasting of Ramadhan ending fast earlier before end of Ramadhan (third wrong), thus observing Eid earlier (fourth wrong).

Reason: If Muslims observe moon-sighting properly according to instructions in hadiths than they could end a month either on time or later but never earlier. That means, Muslims may start Ramadhan on time or later but no Muslim could start Ramadhan earlier. Same is true with Shawal, that is, if moon-sighting is observed according to instructions in hadith than Muslims may start Shawal on time or later but never earlier (hence observing Eid on time or later is possible but never earlier).

[Note: According to hadith, fasting on last days of Shaban is not allowed unless one is fasting on certain days and last days of Shaban fall on those days … for instance … one is fasting every Thursday and Friday … then if last days of Shaban falls on Thursday and Friday than fasting is allowed else not allowed. Thus, according to hadith, those who start fasting early, before Ramadhan started, disobeyed Prophet (SAW) on two accounts, that is started Ramadhan earlier and also fasted on last days of Shaban.

Bukhari: Volume 3, Book 31, Number 138:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “None of you should fast a day or two before the month of Ramadan unless he has the habit of fasting (Nawafil) (and if his fasting coincides with that day) then he can fast that day.”]

How misguided group of people and those obsessed with them misguide Muslims?

This misguided group and people influenced by this group wrongly claim that this is present phenomenon that Muslims are starting Ramadhan and observing Eids on different days and that Muslims used to start Ramadhan and observe Eid on same day all over the world few hundred years ago … when fact is that Muslims never started Ramadhan nor observed Eids on same day in Muslim history … neither it was possible, as even hundred year ago communication was not even advanced enough to do what these people claim, as in those days people were usually unaware of what is happening even few hundred miles from where they were living, leave places located far away.

[Note … during the time or Prophet (SAW) and even later, news from places located far away was impossible anyhow … and that is confirmed from hadith Sahi Muslim: Book 006, Number 2391 too. For instance, Abdullah b Umar in Madina was told that Ramadhan started a day earlier in Syria and thus if one takes that day into account as valid starting day of Ramadhan in Madina too then even though moon was not sighted in Madina on 29th day of fasting in Madina, still Ramadhan had its 30 days so Madina could observe Eid next day … but Abdullah b Umar said that starting day of Ramadhan in Syria, however confirmed it maybe, was not starting day of Ramadhan in Madina, hence people in Madina have to complete fast for 30 days as Moon was not sighted in Madina on 29th of Ramadhan … thus in effect rejecting moon-sighting in Syria as valid moon-sighting for Madina.]

To justify their beliefs, these people quote hadith from Sunan Abu-Dawud (ignoring clear hadith mentioned in Sahi Muslim: Book 006, Number 2391), interpret hadith mentioned in Abu Dawud the way they like, and rely on that hadith exclusively … even though hadith in ‘Sahi Muslim’ is not only specific to this issue but crystal clear and conclusive … [Sahi Muslim is also considered more reliable than Sunan Abu-Dawud].

Many hadith from all hadith books are clear that moon should be sighted or 30 days to get completed … though this misguided group misinterpret ‘sighting’ with ‘sighting anywhere’ even though there is no hadith that says that one should rely on news about moon-sighting at anywhere (rather, hadith in Sahi Muslim rejects moon-sighting anywhere as acceptable).

Anyhow, the hadith these people quote from Abu Dawud is so inconclusive that one could not even use that hadith to reject hadith of Sahi Muslim … rather if one reads that hadith and interpret it properly, it becomes clear that the hadith does not reject or contradict anything regarding sighting of the moon locally (as mentioned in Sahi Muslim: Book 006, Number 2391). The hadith these people quote is:

Sunan abu Dawud: Book 3, Number 1153:
Narrated AbuUmayr ibn Anas:
AbuUmayr reported on the authority of some of his paternal uncles who were Companions of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Some men came riding to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and testified that they had sighted the new moon the previous day. He (the Holy Prophet), therefore, commanded the people to break the fast and to go out to their place of prayer in the morning.

Now read the hadith carefully … and think. Hadith does not say that people came from far away riding to Prophet (SAW) testifying that they sighted the moon previous day (meaning that next day after sighting is Eid). Hadith also does not say that people who came were from areas considered as local. Thus from hadith one can conclude anything … but concluding that they came from far away contradicts hadith mentioned in Sahi Muslim … though concluding that they came from local areas does not contradict hadith mentioned in Sahi Muslim … so, logical thing is that to conclude that they came from local area.

Since, evidence of moon-sighting by reliable people is acceptable, Prophet (SAW) accepted their evidence. Now, since they were from local area fast was declared invalid and Eid was observed. Only thing this hadith confirms is that, if valid acceptable evidence of moon sighting is found even on Eid day than people should break the fast and observe Eid … as that is obvious, because fast on Eid day is not allowed.

[Example: Consider city is Karachi. Communication is of Prophet (SAW) time. Due to lack of communication, people are following Eid using moon-sighting confirmation from immediate locality. People at Defence did not sighted Moon and thus started fasting. Next day, people from Clifton came riding to defence and told that they sighted Moon. Since Defence and Clifton is in close vicinity to each other, people of Defence are told that they should stop fasting and should celebrate Eid. Acceptable … and fulfils story what hadith in Sunan of Abu Dawud mentions … also fulfils conditions mentioned in Sahi Muslim: Book 006, Number 2391]

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Hmm.....

So we should have a moon sighting committee for every town and city.

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

BTW, the first report is that of Abdulla Bin Omer ra, the last being of Prophet saw. Why should we take the amal of Abdulla Bin Omer over Prophet saw?

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

 It seems you have not read my posts carefully. :)

    According to hadith (Sahi Muslim) ... When Abdullah bin Omar (RA) said that moon sighting in Syria is not valid in Madina, he was not quoting anything on his own but said what Prophet (SAW) taught to Muslims.

According to second hadith (sunan Abu Dawud)... hadith did not say that riders who came to prophet (SAW) were from far away places ... so there is no need to assume that they were from far away places.

The group who want Muslims to follow Saudi Arabia ... so that Muslims can have Start of Ramadhan as well as both Eids on same day ... assume that riders were from far away places and ignore hadith from Sahi Muslim that invalidate their assumption.

*Right thing is to assume that both hadiths are correct as that is possible. *

If one assumes that both hadiths are correct then that is only possible if one considers that riders were from somewhere close to Madina and thus Prophet (SAW) took their sighting of Moon as valid sighting in Madina ... hence asked Muslims to break the fast and celebrate Eid.

[Please check the example I posted at the end of my second post to explain the situation regarding hadith in Sunan Abu Dawud]

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Sa1eem what you are not recognising in putting forward this argument is that it means, there is a particular distance within a country after which the moon sighting of one place to another becomes invalid. How do you establish that distance. Secondly, it means within a country people can have Eid & Ramadan at different days. In which case people at Peshwar and Karachi having different Eids becomes the way to go.

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

The eid hilal was first sighted in the South/West Pacific on Wednesday. In South America and Parts of Southern North Africa/Central America/Southern Africa/Indian Ocean/Australasai on Thrusday. For Parts of North Africa/Middle East(including KSA)/North of Asia including Pakistan it has been seen only today (Friday).

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

United Kingdom

  1. Not Seen: ICOP member Mr. Qamar Uddin from York City in North Yorkshire State mentioned that the sky was clear, the atmospheric condition was clear, the crescent was not seen by naked eye, the crescent was not seen by binocular, the crescent was not sought by telescope, the crescent was not sought by CCD Imaging Mr. Qamar Uddin said: "On Thursday 9 September 2010 (29 Ramadan 1431 AH) many people from throughout UK including York have attempted to sight the crescent moon (Hilal) of Shawwal after sunset. Most places were clear but none of the groups were able to sight the Hilal. However, we have received reliable sighting news ((Muhaqaq Ruyat-e-Basari) from many other countries (including Morocco and South Africa). Therefore, the Ulama in UK have decided that the month of Ramadan 1431 AH will have 29 days and the month of Shawwal 1431 AH will start from Friday 10 September 2010 (i.e. day of Eid-ul Fitr), Insha-Allah. The York group comprised of Qamar Uddin with a few astronomers from York Astronomical Society and a team from Batley (Maulana Hasib Mayet, Maulana Imran Lunat, Maulana Abubaker Diwan, Suleman Motala, Mohammed Patel, Ismail Patel,Shakir Daji & Vashiullah Bodiayat). May Allah rewards all those who have attempted to revive the Sunnah of moon sighting, this month (Ameen). Eid Mubarak to all Muslims!

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

How about countries like Norway

[QUOTE]

quote from Wikipedia....

Because of Norway's high latitude, there are large seasonal variations in daylight. From late May to late July, the sun never completely descends beneath the horizon in areas north of the Arctic Circle (hence Norway's description as the "Land of the Midnight Sun"), and the rest of the country experiences up to 20 hours of daylight per day. Conversely, from late November to late January, the sun never rises above the horizon in the north, and daylight hours are very short in the rest of the country.

[/QUOTE]

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

The should follow Morroco.

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

You are right that ‘Eids’ and 'start of Ramadhan' in Peshawar and Karachi could happen on different days, so we should not make such things a serious issue.

Anyhow, there is another real serious issue (I am not particular here about K-PK but any area) and that is: When no one at a place could practically or theoretically see Moon, as Moonset was before Sunset (example is UK), still some misguided people try to declare ‘Eids’ or ‘start of Ramadhan’ in that area, then that is certainly wrong. We have to know/realise that ‘Eids’ as well as ‘start of Ramadhan’ could happen on day or even a day later, but never a day earlier (before time).

As for moon sighting in one area to be valid in another area due to vicinity ... again you are right, there should be defined criteria ‘in distance’ between areas that should validate an areas to be in vicinity of each other for moon-sighting purpose. I believe this distance could be distance within which Qasr prayers do not start, that is 3 days journey distance on foot (or around 36 miles). That means, moon is sighted at ‘A’ then all areas 36 miles radius of ‘A‘ could consider that sighting as their valid sighting too.

Anyhow, due to present day administrative purpose ‘ijtihad’ could be made that areas under one administration could declare ‘Eid’ and ‘Start of Ramadhan’ at same time ... if and only if ... there was possibility of moon sighting in all those areas ... that is, moonset in all those areas was after sunset. That means, if area under one administration is large then they can have two ‘Eids’ and two ‘Start of Ramadhan’ days, but if small then there could be one ‘Eid’ and one ‘start of Ramadhan ‘at all places [This is not Islamic requirement but possible administrative requirement and in my opinion unwritten ijtihad already exist on that].

Example: If Moon can be sighted in Karachi and if moonset was after sunset in Peshawar but still moon sighting was impossible, then state may decide that Ramadhan has started in both places or Eid is at both places.

Note: Moonset could be after sunset but moon sighting is still impossible, as for sighting moon many thing counts, that includes angle of moon above horizon and twilight setting time ... so, normally moon can be sighted with naked eyes only if moonset was at least 25 to 30 minutes after sunset.

   In my opinion Muslims do not need any ijtihad on this issue, Ijtihad that would unnecessarily take Muslims away from ruling of Allah and Prophet (SAW), and thus Muslims should have ‘Eids’ as well as ‘Start of Ramadhan’ at different places even within same country starting at different time (considering that as beauty of Islam).  It makes no difference if we have different local Eids and different days Ramadhan starting (most likely variation would be a day or two)... as that was norm during Prophet (SAW) time too and during later times.  

For instance, this was happening in areas under control of Muslims since early times that areas were having their own ‘Eids’ and ‘start of Ramadhan’ different from each other at different places ... and that is logical too, as without Telex, Phone, Internet, Newspapers, Airplane journey, etc ... in those days a person living in Yemen would not even know if Moon is sighted in Madina so to synchronise their times with each other ... though close areas to each other, areas within the distance where ‘Qasr prayers’ do not starts, that is less than 3 days journey distance on foot (around 36 miles), may be synchronising their events if they can.

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

 As far as I know, for areas where sunset never happens for days ... then for people living there, they should determine their prayer times using calculation or follow prayer times approximately in line with area closes to them where normal day cycle happens and prayer times can be determined. They can use same principle for determining ‘start of lunar months’ (‘Start of Ramadhan’ and ‘Eid days’)

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Peace All

It is easy ... we know when the first possible sighting takes place, we look for the hilal, if we don't see it then we complete 30 days, there is no need to follow another country.

Statistically on the second day of the new hilal, always more than 50% of the inhabited land mass is in clear visiblity profile of the moon. Only those places that actually see the moon on the first day should work according to the 29 day month. If it is still not seen by the second day it does not matter the 30 days would be complete so you would switch month anyway.

I don't know about the old days but these days the cut off needs to be established in a way that a location has a least one night to prepare for the change of month. This means the time it takes between maghrib to isha, because prior to isha if a message is given out then it can be made public knowledge by isha time, however if we get news of a sighting in another city after we have prayed isha then we will not have knowledge of it. So it follows that if by a given locations isha time there has been no news then they should complete their 30 days.

The hadith about the horsemen is only valid for the same locality. I would be sure that these were horsemen who lived in the mountainous areas of the same locality who have more visibility especially on events that take place near the horizon.

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

@Sa1eem

The issue about moonset prior to sunset isnt a very valid argument as to moon sighting not being possible specially when it is just a couple of minutes. In case of clouds coming in front of sum, moon can be sighted prior to sunset.

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Are you kidding? Moon sighting solely depends on these two factors Sun and clouds!

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

^It was reported yesterday by GEO that moon was sighted just prior to maghrib and a meteoroligst on the phone said, tha this can happen when clouds make the last part of the day darker, making it possible for moon to be sighted prior to sunset.

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

^sighted where?

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

 Regardless of one can see the moon before sunset or not, you are right that even when moonset is before sunset moon is present in the sky. Actually, moon is present in the sky everyday at one time or another. It is obvious, because there is 'moonrise' everyday and 'moonset' everyday ... and as long as moonset has not happened there would be moon present in the sky. 

Anyhow ... ‘Chand-raat’ ... or ‘night of the moon’ is the first night of the month when there was moon in the sky when night started. Night starts just after sunset and not before sunset. That means moon should be sighted in the sky after sunset and not before sunset.

For instance: Every month (once every 29 days or 30 days) moonset passes sunset. That is, one day moonset was before sunset and next day it was after sunset. When this transition happens new month starts, not before.

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

In this case why shouldnt we depend upon astronomical calculation which is more accurate than naked eye sighting of moon.

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

 No, it also depends on a person desire to sight moon and eyesight. For instance, if a person has no desire to sight moon or if a person is blind then Moon sighting for that person is not possible.