Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

   Well, regardless of we depend on astronomical calculation or naked eye, Moon that would start ‘new lunar month’ has to be ‘Moon that sets after sunset’.

Actually, if one depends on astronomical calculation then it could be start of ‘lunar month’ even if moonset happens a minute after sunset or it is decided that moonset happens 25 minutes after sunset (I would prefer moonset happening around 20 to 25 minutes after sunset just to make sure that moon can be sighted too).

Islam came in era when people use to rely on sighting of moon and Islam made that as requirement that moon should be sighted than only previous month ends and new month starts, else consider 30 days as end of month. So, why change that requirement unnecessarily?

Anyhow, as I mentioned in my earlier post ... Ijtihad could be made due to administrative reasons (not Islamic reason) that state declares ‘start of new month’ in areas where ‘moonset is after sunset’ (that is necessary), as long as ‘Moon’ is sighted at any place within state.

Nevertheless, we should make sure that ‘lunar month’ starts in an area only when it is confirmed that moonset was after sunset (that can be confirmed either by sighting of moon ... or ... using astronomical calculation). **This is necessary because in Islam, days have particular importance and obviously Allah would not change importance of days just because ‘King of Arabia’ or some ‘deviant sect’ desires so. For instance, Hajj is visiting Arafat on 9th of Zil-Haj. If a person visits Arafat on 8th and not 9th (just because King of Arabia decided that ‘Zil-Haj’ would start a day earlier then it should) than it would not be Hajj. Same is true of Eid day, Ramadhan, Lalatul-Qadar, and other days.

** Anyhow, Allah has already given relaxation when it comes to ‘start of month’, that is, if for any reason moon cannot be sighted then delay ‘start of the month’. That does not mean to start a month earlier than time **(delay is acceptable but not earlier start). **Since Allah has given that relaxation, one can expect that Allah will grant same importance to day that would follow due to delay in ‘start of month’ ... but obviously not if ‘day is observed or celebrated before its time’ (due to earlier start of month).

22

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Why don't you add that person's upbringing, from his birth till his sighting of the moon, to your list?

23

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

so you are saying regardless of age of moon it can be sighted if clouds are not present and sun is absent?

24

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Peace Sa1eem

You are right that for Friday the moon on Thursday night could not have been seen in the UK, but if we didn't do Eid for Friday then we would have been fasting 31 days.

Since in the UK following Saudi meant they were fasting one day early, the day for ro'ya was not Thursday night, but Wednesday night. No one saw the moon so they completed the 30 days, which meant Friday for Eid, it does not matter about whether the hilal is or is not visible after sunset if the 30 days are up.

If you argued that we started Ramadan incorrectly, then I would agree with you, but that could have been a 30 day issue as well.

25

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Note: In regions like UK and further north, moonsets occur often before sunset and shar'aee hilal may only be seen 3rd or 4th day after conjunction. We are living in the regions where some rulings need to be modified.

26

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

 Brother, from what I understand, you raised two issues.

One: Ending Ramadhan due to fasting 30 days regardless of month of Ramadhan ended or not (as happened in UK).
Two: What happens if one fast 30 days and finds that Ramadhan has not ended (30 days rule for fasting)?

It is impossible that one fast 30 days of Ramadhan (while living at same place) and month of Ramadhan did not ended. If that happens then it means the person started fasting in Shaban and his Shaban fasts were nothing to do with fasting in Ramadhan. 

  Error in lunar months (moving days forward  due to non-sighting of moon) sorts out itself over time but only if  people are following months (adjustment happens automatically). If  people are not following months and adjust every month to 30 days, then  they would move ‘start of month’ around 5 days forward over a year. Anyhow, if  there would be error then system is such that error will move a  particular day (start of month) forward, but never backward.  Thus, it  is possible that Ramadhan starts later than time but never earlier than  time. Similarly, Eid may happen later than time but never earlier.

In London, some people started Ramadhan a day earlier on 11 August instead of 12 August and similarly celebrated Eid a day earlier on 10 September instead of 11 September. That is ridiculous and joke with Allah’s system. Practically or theoretically, to move a particular day earlier is impossible in Islamic system. People who did that, intentionally or ignorantly, made a big joke with system of Allah, system (Lunar month) where days can move forward but never backward. If error had happened in 'starting Ramadhan' then that would have pushed Ramadhan to 13 August or 14th August, but never a day ealier on 11 August.

30 days rule: As for 30 days rule, it is for month (if one is properly following the rules) and not for fasting. Month could be of 29 days or 30 days, but as far as fasting is concerned, we have to fast month of Ramadhan regardless of number of days in Ramadhan. We should remember that we are asked to fast in Ramadhan, not that we fast 29 days or 30 days. You may ask that if Ramadhan could be 29 days or 30 days than how fasting could be less than 29 days or more than 30 days. This can happen.

Example: Suppose a person starts fasting in Pakistan where Ramadhan started a day later then South Africa (it is possible). Now, suppose this person who started Ramadhan in Pakistan moved to South Africa during Ramadhan. Let say, Ramadhan was of 29 days in South Africa. If that would happen then Ramadhan would be over for this person after 28 days. This would happen because when South African Muslims would be fasting their 29th Fast, this person would be fasting 28th Fast (as he started Ramadhan a day later). For him, it would be Eid on 29th day of his fast. 

  Same way if a person started Ramadhan in South Africa where Ramadhan started a day earlier then Pakistan, and during Ramadhan this person moves to Pakistan where Ramadhan was of 30 days. If this would happen then this person’s Ramadhan fasting would be of 31 days ... because when he was fasting 31st fast, Pakistanis would be fasting their 30th fast. After his 31st fast and Pakistanis 30th fast, all would celebrate Eid same day.

Anyhow, above fasting of 28 days and 31 days is legitimate Ramadhan fasting. But if a person started fasting in Shaban considering days he/she fasted in Shaban as fasting of Ramadhan (as happened in UK) than that does not mean his fasting in Shaban would become fasting of Ramadhan. Ramadhan fasting would start the day Ramadhan started, regardless of when the person started his fasting ... though if ramadhan started a day later due to problem in moonsighting, fast would start a day later.

27

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

 Brother, it is not only UK but everywhere in the world moonset occurs often before sunset and UK is no exception as far as moonset happening after sunset is concerned. Only places that are exceptional are places around poles where sun can be shining for days and thus it is impossible to determine moonset after sunset (due to absence of proper sunset). Anyhow, sighting moon is difficult in UK, so one can rely on moonset and sunset timing.

As far as conjunction of moon with sun is concerned, it is nothing to do directly with moon sighting or start of lunar month. Conjunction is a time when moon and sun align itself and it is solar eclipse once a month. After conjunction, new moon is born and period of ‘waxing moon’ starts. Once new moon is born it takes around a day or two when moonset passes sunset at different places. That is all.

One can say that moonset never passes sunset before conjunction, but that does not mean that conjunction starts lunar month. Well, after conjunction, moon keeps creeping forward until time lunar eclipse happens, that is when we see full moon. After full moon, period of ‘waning moon’ starts. Waxing moon cycle ends at conjunction. Full cycle of ‘waning moon’ and ‘waxing moon’ happens every lunar month.

As for Islamic month in England, we can depend on London or Birmingham time when moonset passes sunset. (Scotland could adopt Glasgow time). Here is date for start of Islamic months in London, depending on moonset time passing sunset time for full year of 1431 AH until Muharram year 1432 AH.

1431 AH (earliest London dates for starting of months)

Muharram: 18 Dec 09 - moonset was 44 min after sunset on 17 Dec
Safar: 16 Jan 10 - moonset was 20 min after sunset on 15 Jan
Rabi-ul-A: 15 Feb 10 - moonset was 45 min after sunset on 14 Feb
Rabi-ul-S: 17 March 10 - moonset was 1hr 9 min after sunset on 16 March
Jamad-ul-U: 15 April 10 - moonset was 32 min after sunset on 14 April
Jamad-ul-S: 15 May 10 - moonset was 1hr 10 min after sunset on 14 May
Rajab: 13 June 10 - moonset was 26 min after sunset on 12 June
Shaban: 13 July 10 - moonset was 20 min after sunset on 12 July
Ramadhan: 12 Aug 10 - moonset was 11 min after sunset on 11 Aug
Shawal: 11 Sept 10 - moonset was 18 min after sunset on 10 Sept

Future expected timing:
Zil-Qad: 10 Oct 10 - moonset would be 17 min after sunset on 9 Oct
Zil-Hij: 8 Nov 10 - moonset would be 25 min after sunset on 7 Nov

Eid in London should be on 17 Nov (or later)

Muharram: 7 Dec 10 - moonset would be 33 min after sunset on 6 Dec

28

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Peace Sa1eem

You didn't need to give this lengthy post, I already explained that I know the fasts had started one day early, but my explanation was around the idea that if 'viewing' was done on the 'wrong' night of 29th which came to Wednesday night and they saw no moon the natural thing for them to do (rightly or wrongly) was to complete the 30 days. So I was addressing the very first post, you can't say that if moonset occurs before sunset then the month should not change, because sometimes moonset will occur before sunset after the 3rd or 4th day after conjunction in certain regions, the criteria is check on night of 29th if not seen then complete 30 days. Whether the hilal comes or not on second night or thrid is doesn't matter. The moonset needs to occur after sunset when looking for the moon on the first day of possible sighting.

29

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

   Brother, it is true that my reply was long still I wish you had read my post.

Anyhow, if moonset occurs before sunset then the month does not change. Moon should be seen at night and not day for month to change. Night is after sunset and not before sunset. Before sunset it is day and sighting of moon during day is immaterial. You are right in your post that criteria is to check for moon on night of 29th and if moon is not seen then complete 30 days.

If people remember that night is after sunset, thus look for moon at night (after sunset) or complete 30 days, than it is impossible (literally impossible) that one could have month starting early or ending early. In this case, there would be no 'Ramadhan' starting in Shaban and no 'Eid' in Ramadhan. Thus, there could be no justification for anyone starting Ramadhan early or celebrating Eid early and justifying such happenings would be justifying impossibility, ignorance, or intentional error (something that would not stand on judgement day).

  Even though conjunction is irrelevant, it is very unlikely that it would take 3 or 4 days after conjunction for ‘moon to set after sunset’ anywhere in the world, including UK. Normally, moonset would be after sunset on first or second day of conjunction. Anyhow, even if it had taken 3 or 4 days after conjunction for moon to set after sunset, still sighting of moon before sunset (that is during day time) would be irrelevant and change of month would not happen until moonset happens after sunset (that is, at night).
30

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

I dont know what you guys are talking about coz i have not read any post above. but i have one question.. WHY THE WHOLE PAKISTAN DO NOT CELEBRATE EID ON ONE DAY ?????

31

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Ok you are talking about early announcements ... in which case I agree with you early announcements do take place, but again it is possible for Kenya to see the hilal, and in the same night for UK not to see it because the moon has set early in UK but not in Kenya. The characteristic curve will be seen on the visibility profiles demonstrating this. The problem is that now do you choose to take a 'positive' sighting from another location or only follow local time?

And if a given distance is allowed for following a sighting and after that distance we should not follow it what is that boundary? Does that boundary work on a geopolitical level? By what criterion do we follow the country and not the continent? The region and not the country? Is this a matter for the decision makers or for the individuals? Personally I believe the calendar thing is being done all wrong in the UK but even if a locally wrong announcement is made in the UK, I'll still follow it because that is my position in society. If however anyone gets into a position of rank and controls committees or plays a role in a forum that conducts these affairs then by all means they should be doing the right thing.

32

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Politics - Shall we follow or shall we decide?

33

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Peace Sa1eem

To answer my own question ... I have thought about a resolution to this. It is that for those countries that are clearly not in sight of the curve can rely on 'positive' sightings from other regions so long as they are:

a) Within 1 hours contact time - i.e. 1 hour later the visibility of the hilal becomes apparent in a region West of the original location. (This is so information can get back to the communities in time for 'isha prayer)

b) Appoint a leader masjid or create a ro'ya committee to make this decision on behalf of the whole country of residence, or at least on regional level.

Somehow I still think multiple events will still take place though.

34

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

Moon/sun are on their centuries old course, Pakistan showed up on the map only on 1947. We should not be so fascinated with having Eid on one day.

35

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

^ I wish they do :(

I was asking an indian gal here. she said whole india celebrate it on one day. Same goes for US, UK , Aus and other countries. Is there any other country like Pakistan you know where Eid is celebrated on different days in different part of country? or we are the only exception?

36

Re: Ramadhan, Eid and Moon-sighting

^ Incorrect, Eid is celebrated on different days even in US, Canada, UK.