Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer…all’s well at home

Its rich coming from Indians. If you’re guilty points to others. Problem with likes of you is that you believe in your own BS.

Pakistan accuses India of 12 beheadings since 1998: Report – The Express Tribune

Pakistan accuses India of 12 beheadings since 1998: Report
By AFP
Published: January 31, 2013

Indian Border Security Force soldiers patrol along the India-Pakistan border fence about 27 KM from Wagah on January 13, 2013. PHOTO: AFP/FILE
NEW DELHI:

Pakistan has accused India of decapitating 12 soldiers in cross-border attacks since 1998 and registered a protest with a UN watchdog, a newspaper reported Wednesday, after deadly army clashes earlier this month.

The accusations are contained in a series of classified documents presented to the United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) which monitors the disputed Kashmir border, according to The Hindu newspaper.

The report reads, “In classified protests to a United Nations watchdog that have never been disclosed till now, Pakistan has accused Indian soldiers of involvement in the torture and decapitation of at least 12 Pakistani soldiers in cross-Line of Control raids since 1998, as well as the massacre of 29 civilians.”

The report follows a series of killings of soldiers on both sides earlier this month along the de facto border known as the LoC.

Pakistan says three of its soldiers were killed in firing by Indian troops while India accuses Pakistani troops of killing two of its soldiers on January 8, one of whom was beheaded. Pakistan has denied responsibility.

The situation along the LoC has calmed since the two armies agreed a ceasefire on January 16.

The newspaper quoted an unnamed senior Pakistani army officer stating that, “Ever since 9/11, we have sought to downplay these incidents, aware that a public backlash [could] push us into a situation we cannot afford on the LoC, given that much of our army is now committed to our western borders. Each of these incidents has been protested by us on both military and UNMOGIP channels.”

An Indian military spokesperson said the issue had “not been raised by Pakistan in communications between the two Directors-General of Military Operations.”

Published in The Express Tribune, January 31st, 2013.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

Just an observation.

One poster from either side of the border readily acknowledged a (jawan's) life is cheap both sides of the border. That is the problem. That we are so dismissive of the jawan. And his life. So by extension, his family.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer…all’s well at home

Honestly did you read the article you just posted. The killing were happening since 1998 and it is being presented to UN in 2013. Is there some anomaly here. Did the Pakistani govt not understand the Geneva conventions and realized that it was bad only after the Indian govt raised the issue.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

Unfortunately the Indian side believes it and hence the cold reception. What is so hard to understand here. I think the action was justified and manifested the anger the common man has for the beheading.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

You must have reading comprehension problem. According GoP incidents (12 in totally) have been reported to the UN observer group since 1998. The information has been declassified now because of this recent incident on LOC and the drama created by your media.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer…all’s well at home

Here is report by your own media.

Locked in U.N. files, 15 years of bloodletting at LoC - The Hindu

In classified protests to a United Nations watchdog that have never been disclosed till now, Pakistan has accused Indian soldiers of involvement in the torture and decapitation of at least 12 Pakistani soldiers in cross-Line of Control raids since 1998, as well as the massacre of 29 civilians.

The allegations, laid out in confidential Pakistani complaints to the United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP), suggest that Indian and Pakistani troops stationed on the Line of Control remain locked in a pattern of murderous violence, despite the ceasefire both armies entered into in November 2003. Earlier this month, bilateral relations were severely damaged after a series of LoC skirmishes, which culminated in the beheading and mutilation of two Indian soldiers Lance-Naik Hemraj Singh and Lance-Naik Sudhakar Singh.

The Ministry of Defence did not respond to an e-mail from The Hindu, seeking comment on the alleged decapitation of Pakistani civilians and troops reported to UNMOGIP. However, a military spokesperson said the issue had “not been raised by Pakistan in communications between the two Directors-General of Military Operations.”

The Ministry of External Affairs also said the UNMOGIP complaints had not been raised in diplomatic exchanges between the two countries.

“Ever since 9/11,” a senior Pakistan army officer told The Hindu, “we have sought to downplay these incidents, aware that a public backlash [could] push us into a situation we cannot afford on the LoC, given that much of our army is now committed to our western borders. Each of these incidents has been protested by us on both military and UNMOGIP channels.”

UNMOGIP, set up after the India-Pakistan war of 1947-1948 to monitor ceasefire violations, does not conduct criminal investigations, or assign responsibility for incidents. The reports of its ceasefire monitors are sent to the organisation’s headquarters in New York, and forwarded to the Ministry of Defence in New Delhi.

Ever since 1972, India has responded to UNMOGIP queries with a standard-form letter, saying it believes the organisation has lost its relevance following the demarcation of the LoC. Earlier this month, India argued in the United Nations that the organisation ought to be wound-up.

Massacre for massacre

The most savage cross-LoC violence Indian forces are alleged to have participated in was the killing of 22 civilians at the village of Bandala, in the Chhamb sector, on the night of March 26-27, 1998. The bodies of two civilians, according to Pakistan’s complaint to UNMOGIP, were decapitated; the eyes of several others were allegedly gouged out by the attackers. The Pakistani military claimed to have recovered an Indian-made watch from the scene of the carnage, along with a hand-written note which asked, “How does your own blood feel”?

First reported by The Hindu’s sister publication Frontline in its June 19, 1998 issue, the Bandala massacre is alleged to have been carried out by irregulars backed by Indian special forces in retaliation for the massacre of 29 Hindu villagers at Prankote, in Jammu and Kashmir, by the Lashkar-e-Taiba. The LeT attackers slit the throats of their victims, who included women and children.

No Indian investigation of the Bandala killings has ever been carried out. However, an officer serving in the Northern Command at the time said the massacre was “intended to signal that communal massacres by jihadists, who were after all trained and equipped by Pakistan’s military, were a red line that could not be crossed with impunity.”

The Lashkar, however, continued to target Hindu villagers in the Jammu region; 10 were killed at Deesa and Surankote just days later, on May 6, 1998. In 2001, 108 people were gunned down in 11 communal massacres, and 83 people were killed in five incidents in 2002 — a grim toll that only died out after the 2003 ceasefire.

Brutal retaliation

Even though the large-scale killings of civilians did not take place again, Pakistan continued to report cross-border attacks, involving mutilations, to UNMOGIP.

Six months after the Kargil war, on the night of January 21-22, 2000, seven Pakistani soldiers were alleged to have been captured in a raid on a post in the Nadala enclave, across the Neelam River. The seven soldiers, wounded in fire, were allegedly tied up and dragged across a ravine running across the LoC. The bodies were returned, according to Pakistan’s complaint, bearing signs of brutal torture.

“Pakistan chose to underplay the Nadala incident,” a senior Pakistani military officer involved with its Military Operations Directorate told The Hindu, “as General Pervez Musharraf had only recently staged his coup, and did not want a public outcry that would spark a crisis with India.”

Indian military sources told The Hindu that the raid, conducted by a special forces unit, was intended to avenge the killing of Captain Saurabh Kalia, and five soldiers — sepoys Bhanwar Lal Bagaria, Arjun Ram, Bhika Ram, Moola Ram and Naresh Singh — of the 4 Jat Regiment. The patrol had been captured on May 15, 1999, in the Kaksar sector of Kargil. Post mortem revealed that the men’s bodies had been burned with cigarette-ends and their genitals mutilated.

Less detail is available on the retaliatory cycles involved in incidents that have taken place since the ceasefire went into place along the LoC in 2003 — but Pakistan’s complaints to UNMOGIP suggest that there has been steady, but largely unreported, cross-border violence involving beheadings and mutilations.

Indian troops, Pakistan alleged, killed a JCO, or junior commissioned officer, and three soldiers in a raid on a post in the Baroh sector, near Bhimber Gali in Poonch, on September 18, 2003. The raiders, it told UNMOGIP, decapitated one soldier and carried his head off as a trophy.

Near-identical incidents have taken place on at least two occasions since 2008, when hostilities on the LoC began to escalate again. Indian troops, Pakistan’s complaints record, beheaded a soldier and carried his head across on June 19, 2008, in the Bhattal sector in Poonch. Four Pakistani soldiers, UNMOGIP was told, died in the raid.

The killings came soon after a June 5, 2008 attack on the Kranti border observation post near Salhotri village in Poonch, which claimed the life of 2-8 Gurkha Regiment soldier Jawashwar Chhame.

Finally, on August 30, 2011, Pakistan complained that three soldiers, including a JCO, were beheaded in an Indian raid on a post in the Sharda sector, across the Neelam river valley in Kel. The Hindu had first reported the incident based on testimony from Indian military sources, who said two Pakistani soldiers had been beheaded following the decapitation of two Indian soldiers near Karnah. The raid on the Indian forward position, a highly placed military source said, was carried out by Pakistani special forces, who used rafts to penetrate India’s defences along the LoC.

Fragile ceasefire

Part of the reason why the November 2003 ceasefire failed to end such savagery, government sources in both India and Pakistan told The Hindu, is the absence of an agreed mechanism to regulate conflicts along the LoC. Though both sides have occasional brigade-level flag meetings, and local post commanders exchange communications, disputes are rarely reported to higher authorities until tensions reach boiling point. Foreign offices in both countries, diplomats admitted, are almost never briefed on crises brewing on the LoC.

In October last year, highly placed military sources said, Pakistan’s Director-General of Military Operations complained about Indian construction work around Charunda, in Uri. His Indian counterpart, Lieutenant-General Vinod Bhatia, however, responded that India’s works were purely intended to prevent illegal border crossings. The unresolved dispute led to exchanges of fire, which eventually escalated into shelling and the killings of soldiers on both sides.

The November 2003 ceasefire, Indian diplomatic sources say, was based on an unwritten “agreement,” which in essence stipulated that neither side would reinforce its fortifications along the LoC — a measure first agreed to after the 1971 war. In 2006, the two sides exchanged drafts for a formal agreement. Since then, the sources said, negotiations have stalled over differing ideas on what kind of construction is permissible. “In essence,” a senior government official said, “we accept that there should be no new construction, but want to be allowed to expand counter-infiltration measures and expand existing infrastructure.”

India insists that it needs to expand counter-infiltration infrastructure because of escalating operations by jihadist groups across the LoC. Pakistan argues that India’s own figures show a sharp decline in operations by jihadists in Jammu and Kashmir. Last year, according to the Indian government, 72 terrorists, 24 civilians and 15 security personnel, including police, were killed in terrorist violence in the State — lower, in total, than the 521 murders recorded in Delhi alone. In 2011, the figures were, respectively, 100, 40 and 33; in 2010, 232, 164 and 69.

“You can’t say that you need more border defences to fight off jihadists when you yourself say there is less and less jihadist violence,” a Pakistani military official said. “The only reason there are less jihadists,” an Indian military officer responded, “is because we’ve enhanced our defences.”

Indian and Pakistani diplomats last met on December 27 to discuss the draft agreement, but could make no headway.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

This is the sad reality of the sub continent Southie saab. If anyone valued the lives of soldiers, they woudnt be freezing their arse of in Siachin.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

Well, if they believe it, then its not our fault, blame your media. Pardon me for not sympathizing with Indians over an incident they themselves started. Perhaps your indignation should be directed at your own army and/or govt.

My point is simply, dont cry over something you started.

And if you feel u have a grievance that justifies your behavior, then so do we. But Pakistanis do not exhibit such behavior towards indians, and if anyone did, then unlike you, we would not support that person. Unlike indians, Pakistanis understand the nature of the conflict within context, and so do not allow themselves to exhibit any outward hostility towards Indians in general. you would not read of Indians being mistreated in Pakistan, you wouldnt hear of Indians being told they arent welcome, you will not hear of people symbolically cleansing the places where Indians stayed, and you will certainly not hear of some two bit mullah boycotting the Prime Minister of India!
You should not support such behavior among your people. This is not something to be proud of or something to be justified. This form of nationlism is an ugly side to India, not something to be proud of. hurt feelings are everywhere, but insaniyat is something that should remain paramount.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

this kind of boycott is a bad bad trend - it is not like this puppet was responsible for anything done to india, he's probably harmed pakistan a lot more with all his nepotism. giving him the cold shoulder isn't sending anyone a message. i can understand if it was musharraf or hamid gul or the lal topi bandar. indian foreign ministry periodically makes statements like we are always ready for peace with open arms etc. and then acts like a scorned child when there is a chance to show this on a completely harmless diplomatic track. what next - any time a sports team/athletes/artists/writers visit, we give in to the right wingers idiotic demands as the normal response? oh wait.. that's already happened twice or more this year..

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

So convert and you wont have to associate with us. Im not quite sure what you think we are doing in your country, Kashmir excluded, but whatever it is would require evidence.

And if your fellow countrymen still associate Pakistan with you, then your problem is with your countrymen not with us. You simply dont have the testicular fortitude to call out your own countrymen. I respect Sharukh Khan for this much at least, who unlike you, calls out those accusing him of being unpatriotic. You on the other hand, weasel your way onto the internet, and express your frustration against your countrymen by accusing Pakistan.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

I dont frequent Indian forums... I dont see any reason why I should. The few I have seen, the few Pakistanis there might be are pounced upon by every Indian like raw meat.

We only discuss India where India is concerned, and that only involves Kashmir. If you actually peruse the forum, you will find that there are only a few threads that cover India. So I dont see how you can assume all we discuss is india... i dont think anyone is really concerned with India, particularly now a days.

None the less, there are a number of intelligent indians here who can discuss the issues rationally, and dont require your added insight. And so YOU, who wants nothing to do with US, needn't concern yourself with the defense of India on the internet. Im sure there are a number of Indian forums for you to thump your chest and demonstrate your patriotic zeal.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

The mature response to this entire thing would be for people to demand the resolution to the conflict, not boycotts and up turned noses. The incident should be an impetus for peace, not for more conflict. Its difficult to sympathize with either side over this issue, because both seem disingenuous. When you spend countless millions on the defense of an iceberg, I dont think anyone truly believes this emotional outburst has anything to do with the welfare of soldiers, head or headless. Honestly, it seems it not so much that soldiers died, but who did the killing. I suppose next time it would be ok if an Indian soldier is killed, so long as his head is still attached? Life of soldiers is rather cheap in South Asia. I dont know why soldiers are suckered into this whole mess?

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer…all’s well at home

Some scathing reports right there if its all true. To his credit, Nikhil did admit that Indians have “probably” done some heinous things aswell.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home


again you are totally detached from reality if you think india would solicit a "third party" certificate on whether or not its soldiers were beheaded just to "prove it" to pakistan. there is no value to pakistani acknowledgement and therefore isn't required. that is not what the government or media was focused on with this issue.

[quote]
Perhaps your right about India post 26/11. But hyper aggressive nationalism isnt a recent development post 26/11, its simply that now it has a voice in your many cable networks. Where before this sort of goading of the public was limited now its perfused.

So, post 26/11. I dont think it justifies anything, hurt feelings arent a rare commodity in Indo-Pak relations. if you can point to such and such as rational, we can quote numerous examples of our own. For some reason, we don't seem to share in the acrimony that the Indians as a nation display toward us. For all the faults faults of the Pakistanis, you do not get this level of vitriol towards Indians, Zahid Hameed, a clown by most standards notwithstanding.
[/quote]
there are many things wrong with the above comments. firstly, indian nationalism (not specific to pakistan) has increased along with the national trajectory. pakistan has moved in the opposite direction so the relative lack of aggressive nationalism is not a function of higher sanity levles or moral superiority. secondly, i don't know why you are positioning zaid hamid as a fringe element with a monopoly on anti-indian aggression when it is pervasive (btw there may be loud voices and asses in the indian media but nothing comparable to conspiracist lunatics/zealots like zaid hamid). thirdly, the indian public is faced with pakistani aggression regularly while the reverse is simply not true. from jihadi infiltration to kargil to the parliament attack to the bombay train attacks to 26/11...an unending series of aggressions either directly or indirectly sponsored by pakistan. there is no corresponding indian aggression in pakistan apart from the theoretical funding of balochistan. indian militants are not attacking pakistani parliament and indian terrorists are not gunning down civilians in karachi hotels. the indian army isn't invading gilgit and starting war. pakistan has given plenty of reasons for indina hyper-nationalists to call for cutting off diplomatic ties, surgical strikes, etc. what reasons do pakistanis have to call for aggression? keep this in mind before comparing sentiments across the border and drawing simplistic clusions.

[quote]
I doubt this could have ever helped the ruling govt, as it happened under there watch but then there is the opposition. And peace at all cost would have meant far more then a few platitudes. So if this is what you call "peace at all costs" I would hate to see what your real hawks are like. I should think the motives of the govt arent always clear. Perhaps they felt demonizing the Pakistanis would take attention of other issues, such as the economy? Election time or not, its not unheard of for a govt to try to divert attention from news that isnt all that palatable. i don't know, but until there is an actual investigation, its hearsay.

At the end of the day, both sides lost men. If Indians are upset, then so are we, but we understand it with in the context of the conflict. Such is the state of affairs. and thats why the Indian reaction is over the top. It does not acknowledge its own role in what happened and adopts victim status for itself.
[/QUOTE]
again the outrage was specifically about beheading and mutilation. if the soldiers had simply been shot it would have hardly made it to page 5 of the newspapers.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

Well, if there is no evidence and india refuses an independent inquiry, then why should we believe India? What makes Indians in any way credible? Everything then is an assumption, and the only one who would believe the Indian narrative are other Indians. Its not as if Indians are the paragons of transparency.

So Indians have only become nationalistic recently? And how has blind nationalism, my country right or wrong ever done anyone any good? Indian nationalism seems to have done you no good. It means that in places like Kashmir, you give your govt blanket cover to do whatever they like under the guise of national unity and defense. If Pakistanis have moved in the opposite direction, then at the very least it means we dont blindly support the actions of our govt. How can that be a bad thing? I think less nationalistic zeal may or may not be a mark of sanity, but it does produce higher sanity levels, as you have a populous with the capacity to discern between right and wrong.

Pakistanis have had to contend with a hostile India from the time of its birth. You recall you rendered our country in half in 1971. I think that would have provoked some bitterness. Your brutal occupation of Kashmir, that was bound to ruffle some feathers. If you can point to Kargil, well we can point to Siachin. If you have your Bombay train bombings, we have our Samjhota express. If India is a vicitm, its of its own policies. Certainly Pakistan should go after terrorists on its own territory, but Pakistan hasnt gone after Terrorists targeting Pakistanis themselves. Going after terrorists is one thing capturing and convicting is another. So this conclusion of your that Indians have more reason to be hostile is nonsense as far as im concerned.

The people who are offended by the mutilation, dont seem to be bothered with the many documented crimes committed by their own Army. I mean, your Army isnt exactly known for being docile and cuddly. So excuse me if I dont quite sympathize, when suddenly after all that has happened from rapes, to mass graves, that suddenly the mutilation of single soldier in a conflict you started should elicit so much outpouring of grief. I just rings a bit hallow to me. so the reaction is what it is, but is that reaction genuine and is it justified, I dont think so.

If it would make Indians feel better however, I sincerely hope that the next time a Pakistani soldier kills one of your soldiers, he ensure that the head remain securely attached to the body. Happy?

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

"OUR.." Are you trying to convince me its your country, your own countrymen or Yourself?

Because I acknowledge India as YOUR country, so I dont quite know to whom your emphasizing the point...

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer....all's well at home

Boss we are not asking you for your sympathy. We are capable of taking caring of ourselves very well. We do not have the PMs running to Washington to broker a peace record.

Luckily we do not have PMs carrying out a foreign jaunt as a private citizen. It was a gesture by a private citizen. The government of India meanwhile did what it had to. Let us not argue about what would be and what would not be the reaction of Pakistani citizens. There can be extreme cases on both sides and let us leave it at that.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer…all’s well at home

You sound bitter, and your whole post is juvenile.
point was, your hurt is not worthy of sympathy even if you wanted some. If anything, it should be India hat apologizes. The behavior of your countrymen is pathetic, unwarranted and immature, and your response is just as immature and ignorant. Running to Washington? what relevence does that have with anything? Maybe because Indians being trigger happy as they are, need to be controlled by power greater then us, namely the US. Why should we be ashamed in seeking peace through moderation with a nation obsessed with revenge over perceived slights real or imagined?

:rotfl: India is one of the most corrupt nations on the planet… You cant wipe your rear without paying a bribe. So who are you trying to kid. Grow up.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer…all’s well at home

Taking a deep breath helps. With all the pent up emotions I know it is hard. We did not ask for sympathy. We showed our righteous indignation when presented with an opportunity to do so. We did not beg the Pakistani PM to come to India and then humiliate him.

You expect our countrymen to rollout the red carpet when your PM is here on a private visit. Good thinking.

I said this in reply to your post that we were desperately in need of sympathy. We are perfectly capable of taking care of ourselves. When some idiots sneak into our country and do nonsense we should welcome them with open arms I suppose.

We do not have a Mr 10 % as our president here. You are only bothered about your behind. That is the problem. When you realize that there is more to the body than just the behind, it would be helpful.

Re: Raja rental off to Ajmer…all’s well at home

So you are saying angels are ruling India? Can you explain this?

http://dawn.com/2013/03/13/indian-ex-airforce-chiefs-home-raided/

**Indian ex-airforce chief’s home raided
**

NEW DELHI: Detectives raided the home of India’s former air force chief on Wednesday as part of an investigation into alleged bribes paid to secure a $748 million contract for 12 Italian helicopters.

Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) spokeswoman Dharini Mishra said former air chief marshal S.P. Tyagi’s home was among more than a dozen addresses targeted in the raids.

“He is one of the 13 people we have filed an FIR (First Information Report) against,” Mishra told AFP.

The FIR filed on Wednesday represents the first stage of an official police enquiry.

The CBI had filed a “preliminary enquiry” report last month into the alleged scandal, linking four companies, four Westerners and seven Indians to the bribery allegations.

Mishra said investigators had raided a total of 14 locations in the northern cities of New Delhi, Chandigarh, and Gurgaon.

India put payments to the Italian company Finmeccanica on hold last month and threatened punitive action against the firm if any wrongdoing was uncovered.

The Indian government also agreed to set up a joint parliamentary commission which would include opposition lawmakers to probe charges that bribes were paid to swing the deal in favour of Finmeccanica’s British unit AgustaWestland.

The helicopter purchase came under scrutiny from Italian investigators looking into allegations the group had broken the law by paying bribes to foreign officials, leading to the arrest of Finmeccanica’s boss Giuseppe Orsi.

Orsi, who quit after his arrest, denies any wrongdoing and his lawyer has called his arrest “unjustified”.

Italian prosecutors suspect that kickbacks worth around 10 per cent of the deal, or 50 million euros ($68 million), were paid to Indian officials to ensure AgustaWestland won the contract, according to Italian media reports.

Cash was allegedly handed to a cousin of the former Indian air force chief with more money funnelled via a web of middlemen and companies in London, Switzerland, Tunisia and Mauritius.

The chopper deal was cleared by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, whose Congress-led government has been buffeted by a series of corruption scandals that analysts say could affect the party’s electoral chances in 2014 polls.

India has already received three of the choppers. The rest were to be delivered by the end of 2014.