Re: Raina - Substitute
why is that fat Piyush kid never a 12th man?
If a substitute is needed, it is India's prerogative whom they send. If ICC or the opposing team has a concern, it should be about whether the player who is out of the field is actually injured/unable to field.
Re: Raina - Substitute
If a substitute is needed, it is India's prerogative whom they send. If ICC or the opposing team has a concern, it should be about whether the player who is out of the field is actually injured/unable to field.
Offcourse you don't want your slow fielder to be the 12th man. I was replying ot one of the posters (Sharabee) wo said Raina is not selected as 12th man for his specialist fielding but for his batting since he can't make it to the top 11 due to Kohli and Yuvraj. That's why I asked why is Piyush not the 12th man. Just for the record
Re: Raina - Substitute
Offcourse you don't want your slow fielder to be the 12th man. I was replying ot one of the posters (Sharabee) wo said Raina is not selected as 12th man for his specialist fielding but for his batting since he can't make it to the top 11 due to Kohli and Yuvraj. That's why I asked why is Piyush not the 12th man. Just for the record
I think you answered your own question - Raina is a much better fielder than Chawla, so he is the 12th man :)
Re: Raina - Substitute
Ravage - just make your case and do not question motivation. I can do the same re: yours.
If India used a specialist fielder for entire duration, I concede it is not kosher. I typically do not watch opposition batting - so I don't know details. But as you have pointed out, now I know what the issue is and agree it is against the spirit
I call it as I see it, and if evidence shows India was unsporting, I have absolutely no problems conceding it.
Re: Raina - Substitute
Its probably time for Raina to come into the team in place of Yusuf Pathan. We will have a batsman & a fielder :)
Re: Raina - Substitute
The player.. Yusuf has does nothing to be kicked out.. i like raina but unfortuntely he needs to sit out.. his arm is a little off so he wont bowl much.. we need yusuf's bowling...
Re: Raina - Substitute
Ravage - just make your case and do not question motivation. I can do the same re: yours.
You were making an inherently subjective call - false equivalence that is really against spirit of the game this one isnt. Thus the motivations point.
[quote]
If India used a specialist fielder for entire duration, I concede it is not kosher. I typically do not watch opposition batting - so I don't know details. But as you have pointed out, now I know what the issue is and agree it is against the spirit
[/QUOTE]
Great, glad thats settled.
Re: Raina - Substitute
You were making an inherently subjective call - false equivalence that is really against spirit of the game this one isnt. Thus the motivations point.
I have posted my reasons for false equivalence (cut and pasted from my earlier post). I stand by my reasons for assigning false equivalence. Yes, clearly I cannot use quantitative measures to come to this conclusion, hence it has to be subjective. But using a sub (even for entire inning) cannot be equated to bowling underarm. In a scale of 1-10 of unsportsmanship, underarm ranks at 10, and using sub at say 5, along with not walking when you know you are out (and who walks anymore).
Also, you misunderstood what I meant by false equivalence. I did not imply this one was not against spirit of the game. I just implied it was not nearly as much against the spirit of the game as the extreme examples cited.
More importantly, the last match India vs South Africa and the accompanying vitriol is not something I plan to participate in. I hope we can get back to discussing/debating in a civil manner (as you are clearly doing). Cheers.
^ The examples you provided were within rules, but all were extremely unsporting (some more than others like the no ball delivery and underarm delivery).
Use of 12th man as substitute fielder is quite common, and does not even remotely come close to the extreme examples of unsportsmanlike conduct you have cited. Hence false equivalence. On course now?
Re: Raina - Substitute
The player.. Yusuf has does nothing to be kicked out.. i like raina but unfortuntely he needs to sit out.. his arm is a little off so he wont bowl much.. we need yusuf's bowling...
Yusuf has done nothing to stay in either :) Raina is a better fielder and a more reliable batsman. He may not be as destructive as Yusuf at his best, but I would take Raina over an out of form Yusuf anyday. And if we need an extra bowler, better to go with Ashwin. Our policy of having batting insurance lest our openers fail has proven to be counter productive.