Radicalization of education in Pakistan

[psyah]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

Im sure. But all things are great in moderation.

Do you think perhaps, that in their religious zeal, many Muslims simply lose the forest for the tree's ? And the beauty of Islam is thus turned onto a burden by those to shortsighted to understand that there is a more relevant truth which they either refuse to perceive or unable to...

Simply put, its not always easy to see the beauty in Islam when Muslims themselves are disfiguring it.

If through religious zeal people lose the forest for the trees, then their basic understanding of Islam is not there ...

Muslims are indeed supposed to avoid extremes ... However there are some extremes that are not only compatible but are edging towards perfection ...

For example, it is extreme to walk on the right or the left ... We are supposed to take the middle path ... This does not mean that praying an average of 3 prayers per day is the middle between 5 prayers and 1 prayer per day ... Neither does it mean that we should put something of lower priority above the higher priority ...

The extreme we need to have ... Is to understand that to pray extra prayers all the time is wrong and to not pray at all is wrong, but to seek prayer and to be adherent to 5 times is a type 'extreme' ... It is a struggle to fine tune our ability to remain on the middle path ... That is what we need to aim for.

This is happens with many things in life ... If we choose to focus on society and economy we need a balance that encourages us to force ourselves to exceed in being nice ... Being patient - you see if one becomes extremely patient then that is not an extreme ... It is a method of being moderate towards others ...

So I believe there is a forest being missed by the ultra zealous as well as moderates ...

All things are not necessarily great in moderation ...

[Med911]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

If through religious zeal people lose the forest for the trees, then their basic understanding of Islam is not there ...

Muslims are indeed supposed to avoid extremes ... However there are some extremes that are not only compatible but are edging towards perfection ...

For example, it is extreme to walk on the right or the left ... We are supposed to take the middle path ... This does not mean that praying an average of 3 prayers per day is the middle between 5 prayers and 1 prayer per day ... Neither does it mean that we should put something of lower priority above the higher priority ...

The extreme we need to have ... Is to understand that to pray extra prayers all the time is wrong and to not pray at all is wrong, but to seek prayer and to be adherent to 5 times is a type 'extreme' ... It is a struggle to fine tune our ability to remain on the middle path ... That is what we need to aim for.

This is happens with many things in life ... If we choose to focus on society and economy we need a balance that encourages us to force ourselves to exceed in being nice ... Being patient - you see if one becomes extremely patient then that is not an extreme ... It is a method of being moderate towards others ...

So I believe there is a forest being missed by the ultra zealous as well as moderates ...

All things are not necessarily great in moderation ...

Well I hope we can agree that the JI in the zealousness, seem to have missed the forest for the trees when they focus their attention on irrelevant issues such as "good-morning" and depictions of little girls w/o hijabs.

At best their irrational and misplaced priorities are a minor irritant, at worst (i think its potentially disastrous in the long run) they undermine society with their religiosity and serve no other purpose then creating more confusion, ignorance and ultimately extremism, which manifests as terrorism and all sorts of pseudo-religious inspired hooliganism.

[psyah]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

Well I hope we can agree that the JI in the zealousness, seem to have missed the forest for the trees when they focus their attention on irrelevant issues such as "good-morning" and depictions of little girls w/o hijabs.

At best their irrational and misplaced priorities are a minor irritant, at worst (i think its potentially disastrous in the long run) they undermine society with their religiosity and serve no other purpose then creating more confusion, ignorance and ultimately extremism, which manifests as terrorism and all sorts of pseudo-religious inspired hooliganism.

No ... I don't think I can agree with that summation unfortunately ...

The way to rid skewed perspectives of Islam is not to go ultra-secular ... It is to put in place the proper version of Islam.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

If they can first get regular non-religious education right.

Make basic education and literacy available for everyone, including villagers, and those working the land (the serfs of Pakistan). Make it available for those living in slums in Karachi and the slums of Lahore, and the slums of every other urban area in Pakistan. Give people easy access and channel charity money into books, pencils, etc, and then you will see the country will change.

At that point, you wont need to worry that the wrong religious ideas are being taught to anyone, because people will think critically and wont fall for inaccurate ideas that are currently being propagated in SOME madrassas and religious circles.

Because they'll open the Quran, read it for themselves, and say "Wait, but this is what Allah says"....

Problem is people are not literate, they can't read, and they have zero critical thinking skills when it comes to reading. The ones who can read have at most achieved a 5th grade education and are working for zamindaars, so even they can't open the Quran and actually read it for themselves. Because it's read in Arabic and rarely translated into proper Urdu that common folk can understand (even I can't understand it when Urdu translations are used and my Urdu is pretty decent).

How many times have I read passages in the Quran and said to myself..."wait no one told me this"...or "wait I had no idea I had this right as a female", and I'm an educated urban female from liberal educated Parents who are practicing muslims. So what do you think the average Pakistani knows about his own religion apart from myths passed down from generation to generation.

This is why the meaning of Islam for so many muslims even today is just to the extent of hijab/burqa/niqab and beard. They have no idea what the Quran even says, and if you asked them about a random passage or piece of information from the Quran they would exhibit a lack of knowledge and understanding.

So I don't think you even need to teach religion in schools. You just need to teach people how to read, and how to think critically then tell them to read the Quran on their own, and you'll see what happens. All of a sudden many well held ideas in Pakistan will disappear.

[psyah]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

Some of what you have written is correct ... People need to be given the tools to reason critically, do simple sums and have good etiquettes ... These for me take higher priority than the rest ...

[Med911]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

No ... I don't think I can agree with that summation unfortunately ...

The way to rid skewed perspectives of Islam is not to go ultra-secular ... It is to put in place the proper version of Islam.

There is no "proper version of Islam. I would think someone as erudite as yourself would show a little less naivete. If nearly 2000 years of Muslims fighting each other over who's Islam is "proper" hasnt convinced you of the futility in trying to define what is 'proper" in Islam, then I dont know what to tell you. Its this irrational idealism that make the Jammat a danger to the society and people who should be ignored.

[Med911]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

If they can first get regular non-religious education right.

Make basic education and literacy available for everyone, including villagers, and those working the land (the serfs of Pakistan). Make it available for those living in slums in Karachi and the slums of Lahore, and the slums of every other urban area in Pakistan. Give people easy access and channel charity money into books, pencils, etc, and then you will see the country will change.

At that point, you wont need to worry that the wrong religious ideas are being taught to anyone, because people will think critically and wont fall for inaccurate ideas that are currently being propagated in SOME madrassas and religious circles.

Because they'll open the Quran, read it for themselves, and say "Wait, but this is what Allah says"....

Problem is people are not literate, they can't read, and they have zero critical thinking skills when it comes to reading. The ones who can read have at most achieved a 5th grade education and are working for zamindaars, so even they can't open the Quran and actually read it for themselves. Because it's read in Arabic and rarely translated into proper Urdu that common folk can understand (even I can't understand it when Urdu translations are used and my Urdu is pretty decent).

How many times have I read passages in the Quran and said to myself..."wait no one told me this"...or "wait I had no idea I had this right as a female", and I'm an educated urban female from liberal educated Parents who are practicing muslims. So what do you think the average Pakistani knows about his own religion apart from myths passed down from generation to generation.

This is why the meaning of Islam for so many muslims even today is just to the extent of hijab/burqa/niqab and beard. They have no idea what the Quran even says, and if you asked them about a random passage or piece of information from the Quran they would exhibit a lack of knowledge and understanding.

So I don't think you even need to teach religion in schools. You just need to teach people how to read, and how to think critically then tell them to read the Quran on their own, and you'll see what happens. All of a sudden many well held ideas in Pakistan will disappear.

Understand Islam also means understanding the context. Otherwise, they will take commandments that tell people to fight and kill and not to trust the Jews and Chirstians as something that applies to all people and all times.

[hareem01]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

They could teach children about Dr Abdus Salam, but he doesn't count unfortunately... But whats more relevant to Pakistani Children then the only Pakistani Scientist to be recognized anywhere in the world ? *But really, why not just teach children Science and about Scietists in general minus the religious leaning? Why should it matter what religion these Scientists were? *

Beyond that, are Pakistani Children aware of the Sumerians, the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc? Its a tragedy that children arent taught about those societies which predate Islam and had such a immense impact on the world we live in today.

Really if I had to raise kids in Pakistan, I would home school them. Not an option for most parents though,

Actually, there are detailed chapters on Muslim scientists and their achievements in British and American books I use for my middle-grader. In fact, just couple of years ago, the British Museum held an exhibition on Islamic contributions to Science.
We are so ignorant of our own history (and ignorant of history in general) that I think everyone including you and I, politicians and molvis should keep away from anything to do with forming and influencing the education policy. Only intellectuals and philosophers should have the right to create and manage curriculums.

[psyah]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

There is no "proper version of Islam. I would think someone as erudite as yourself would show a little less naivete. If nearly 2000 years of Muslims fighting each other over who's Islam is "proper" hasnt convinced you of the futility in trying to define what is 'proper" in Islam, then I dont know what to tell you. Its this irrational idealism that make the Jammat a danger to the society and people who should be ignored.

In this statement you have implied that even groups like ISIS represent a version of Islam that should be acceptable. If there is no proper version of Islam then there is no radicalised form ... Radicalism can only be defined against the norm or proper basis.

For a moment I will accept that there is someone being "irrational and idealistic" - now please explain how that is dangerous for society.

[Med911]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

dupe

[Med911]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

In this statement you have implied that even groups like ISIS represent a version of Islam that should be acceptable. If there is no proper version of Islam then there is no radicalised form ... Radicalism can only be defined against the norm or proper basis.

For a moment I will accept that there is someone being "irrational and idealistic" - now please explain how that is dangerous for society.

Well reason should dictate that beheading innocent people regardless of their faith is something that is repugnant not only in Islam but all faiths and all humanity. Now their are differences of opinion and interpretation ie Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi (god forbid they should be lumped into the categories of Islam), and then there are the "murder anyone who doesn't agree with us" sorts. And so while all people have a right to believe what they like, your rights end where my nose begins is the reason why we dont accept ISIS. So if all they did was fight the Assad regime and not impose their beliefs and behead innocent people, well that would be ok, but their ambitions are a bit more g*****ose and their violations of basic human rights is what deems them to be criminals and invalidates their beliefs...

Why is it dangerous for society? Where to begin! You look to Pakistan. State imposed ideology has created a society where differences are no longer tolerated, where people applaud and cheer a man who murders someone for suspected blasphemy! Its your belief, irrational as it is im sorry to say, that there is ONE ideal Islam, means that anyone who doesnt fit this mold is now a heretic and worthy of death!
This is the ugly side of religion. when a particular ideology is ingrained into a generation starting from birth, too the point that they can no longer think logically or rationally because their world view is so tainted, as they are indoctrinated into believing that their very identity is this one single ideology, and thus any challenge to that ideology is a challenge to identity, and therefore elicits violent outbursts. Anything that is a perceived challenge to the ideology of Pakistan's majority is suppressed, be it Shia, Ahmadis, Hindus, Christians, liberal Sunnis, Barelvi etc etc. . The reason is that that identity is not shared by many in Pakistan, and so those Millions are then the "others." Basically the state has turned millions of her own citizens into aliens, and encourages her citizens to do the same by foisting an exclusionist ideology on them. And it starts with making sure that children are never exposed to girls not wearing Hijab, and making sure that "Good-Morning" is replaced by Assala-o-Laikum and extends throughout their life so that anyone who doesnt believe exactly what they do, is somehow inferior, and their mere existence is not only an attack on their sensibility but Islam and God himself.

When you dont have respect for diversity of opinion and belief, if you dont allow people to be exposed to diversity as it exists in the world, in a place as diverse as Pakistan, then you are creating a generation of close minded people who lack the flexibility of mind to accept and tolerate others around them. Why is India so much more harmonious then Pakistan? Because they had the good sense to respect diversity by not imposing any one ideology or belief at the expense of others.

[psyah]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

@Med911

Well reason should dictate that beheading innocent people regardless of their faith is something that is repugnant not only in Islam but all faiths and all humanity. Now their are differences of opinion and interpretation ie Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi (god forbid they should be lumped into the categories of Islam), and then there are the "murder anyone who doesn't agree with us" sorts. And so while all people have a right to believe what they like, your rights end where my nose begins is the reason why we dont accept ISIS. So if all they did was fight the Assad regime and not impose their beliefs and behead innocent people, well that would be ok, but their ambitions are a bit more g*****ose and their violations of basic human rights is what deems them to be criminals and not a invalidates their beliefs...

Why is it dangerous for society? Where to begin! You look to Pakistan. State imposed ideology has created a society where differences are no longer tolerated, where people applaud and cheer a man who murders someone for suspected blasphemy! Its your belief, irrational as it is im sorry to say, that there is ONE ideal Islam, means that anyone who desnt fit this mold is now a heretic and worthy of death! This is the ugly side of religion. when a particular ideology is ingrained into a generation starting from birth, too the point that they can no longer think logically or rationally because their world view is so tainted as they are indoctrinated into believing that their very identity is this one single ideology, and thus any challenge to that ideology is a challenge to identity and therefore elicits violent outbursts. Anything that is a perceived challenge to the ideology of Pakistan's majority is suppressed, be it Ahmadis, Hindus or Christians. The reason is that that identity is not shared by many in Pakistan, and so those Millions are then the "others." Basically the state has turned millions of her own citizens into aliens, and encourages her citizens to do the same by foisting an exclusionist ideology on them. And it starts with making sure that children are never exposed to girls not wearing Hijab, and making sure that "Good-Morning" is replaced by Assala-o-Laikum and extends throughout their life.

Peace Med911

I don't know where this conversation is leading. So I will go back to saying that proper Islam should be implemented. For argument sake, I suggest that should be the version with most common ground among the scholars ... Unless we start to work with one another instead of against each other then we will remain weak.

[Med911]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

Actually, there are detailed chapters on Muslim scientists and their achievements in British and American books I use for my middle-grader. In fact, just couple of years ago, the British Museum held an exhibition on Islamic contributions to Science. We are so ignorant of our own history (and ignorant of history in general) that I think everyone including you and I, politicians and molvis should keep away from anything to do with forming and influencing the education policy. Only intellectuals and philosophers should have the right to create and manage curriculums.

Those Chapters are taught from a secular perspective. So its less bias.
Pakistan tends to teach everything through the prism of Islam. there is then an inherent bias.

I agree, ideologues are dangerous in any guise.

[Med911]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

@psyah

Peace Med911

I don't know where this conversation is leading. So I will go back to saying that proper Islam should be implemented. For argument sake, I suggest that should be the version with most common ground among the scholars ... Unless we start to work with one another instead of against each other then we will remain weak.

Conversation is leading to where you wanted to take it. You asked the question of how it was dangerous, I answered. You can agree or disagree but i believe logic favors my conclusions.

There then is the problem. The inability to define (forget implement) a singular system. Scholars? Ok, but then why should I accept you scholars. and what if the views of the majority of scholars is also as unjust? Most scholars for example say Ahmadis are kafir and so they have no religious rights... Thats justice?
No there is never compromise and their rarely if ever is justice done when religion is involved. This is what the European Christian realized centuries ago and thus developed as a society by adopting secular ideology, but the Muslims have not been able to figure this out and keep indulging in this masochistic endeavor.

I would argue though, as I have before, that you dont have to TRY to be ISLAMIC to be Islamic. Even a secular society can be Islamic. In many ways England is more Islamic then Saudi Arabia or Pakistan combined. There is no shame in that. Why 'TRY" to be islamic when you can just do what is descent and promote the maximum good and least amount of harm.

[psyah]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

@Med911

Conversation is leading to where you wanted to take it. You asked the question of how it was dangerous, I answered. You can agree or disagree but i believe logic favors my conclusions.

There then is the problem. The inability to define (forget implement) a singular system. Scholars? Ok, but then why should I accept you scholars. and what if the views of the majority of scholars is also as unjust? Most scholars for example say Ahmadis are kafir and so they have no religious rights... Thats justice? No there is never compromise and their rarely if ever is justice done when religion is involved. This is what the European Christian realized centuries ago and thus developed as a society by adopting secular ideology, but the Muslims have not been able to figure this out and keep indulging in this masochistic endeavor.

I would argue though, as I have before, that you dont have to TRY to be ISLAMIC to be Islamic. Even a secular society can be Islamic. In many ways England is more Islamic then Saudi Arabia or Pakistan combined. There is no shame in that. Why 'TRY" to be islamic when you can just do what is descent and promote the maximum good and least amount of harm.

Peace Med911

I'm not disagreeing with you ... I feel there is no truly Islamic country in the world yet ... But that does not me mean that we should abandon hope for a truly Islamic system to be applied ... The scholars ... The majority of them will not allow Ahmadis to be persecuted, the problem is they are not in power and a place like Pakistan has the high street molvis in abundance who I don't recognise as being scholars. The British system had its flaws too ... We can bring the best of all countries and make an Islamic country better than all what we see today. I will not ever call for total secularism ... Secular run state yes, but not a secular society ... I believe a deeply spiritual and religious system operating within a secular political country can work well ... In terms of optimal justice.

[Med911]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

@psyah

Peace Med911

I'm not disagreeing with you ... I feel there is no truly Islamic country in the world yet ... But that does not me mean that we should abandon hope for a truly Islamic system to be applied ... The scholars ... The majority of them will not allow Ahmadis to be persecuted, the problem is they are not in power and a place like Pakistan has the high street molvis in abundance who I don't recognise as being scholars. The British system had its flaws too ... We can bring the best of all countries and make an Islamic country better than all what we see today. I will not ever call for total secularism ... Secular run state yes, but not a secular society ... I believe a deeply spiritual and religious system operating within a secular political country can work well ... In terms of optimal justice.

Well as long as the quest for perfection doesnt end up throwing people "under the bus" so to speak, I have no issue. But so far its only been the case that searching for the perfect ideal system has meant immense suffering and injustice.

[psyah]

Re: Radicalization of education in Pakistan

@Med911

Well as long as the quest for perfection doesnt end up throwing people "under the bus" so to speak, I have no issue. But so far its only been the case that searching for the perfect ideal system has meant immense suffering and injustice.

Well if it threw people under the bus ... That would not be perfect ... Would it?

I think the better word to use is ... Optimal or Balanced or Just society ... That in my view is a perfect society.