Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

The bottom line is that muslims either trust the word of GOD or they do not. If muslims think they need other sources besides Quran, when GOD states very clearly that they are NOT to do it, then their problem is that the do not truly trust GOD's assertions in the Quran. They simply do not believe GOD.

Peace
submitmj

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I'm sure you got this all from an anti-Islamic website. You've been busy copy pasting a lot.

can you post the source of all this?
Did you even spend a little time and think about what you've been posting here? and double check with what's actually written in the Holy Quran.

I suggest you do that before spreading this.

Also kindly explain how do intend to achieve the above? specify the straight path? what is it? And how do you accept Islam?

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

This guy keeps coming back with different nics and same agenda and keeps failing to provide anything substantial. Its like parrot talk.

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

Bigmo dear plz read the rules section of this forum. Lengthy copy pasting or promoting any ideology is not allowed. I beleive your posts are copy pasted. Plz PM me if its your original work and we will open the thread again.

Thank You

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

Bigmo

I really hope that there is a demise of sects in islam and I do agree that shia and sunni sects have no basis in Quran ( or hadith mind you)

Real sects amongst muslims were ahle sunnah and ahle Bidah.Former were the trust followers of salaf, latter were either infiltrators with heretical ideas( rafidha esque sects) or tyrannical rulars who tried to change the sunnah of the Prophet ( nawasib)

I am surprised how conveniently you choose to uphold historical sources as basis of your argument but when the same sources favor a decision which does not favor you u assume it was all fabricated by scholars who were pro-hadith.

Although I do understand the premise of your argument but sad to say your logic remains circular and your work does not show intellectual honesty.

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What historic sources I am upholding? I only talked about Al Shafi's Risala and the only reason I did so was he was the one who laid the claim for the second revelation for Islam. At least he was the one who did so explicitly and wrote a book on that.

Plus where were those salaf when Shafi came? Were not the Mu'taziltes in power before Shafi and even during Shafi? They did not have hadiths. Why is this hadiths with such a few people and why is it only with Al Shafi and his gang? This hadiths should be among the masses like the Quran.

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

[QUOTE]

The Sunnis and Shias under the abbsids twisted the term Jizya to mean taxes. Jizya was talked about in the Quran once in verse 9-29 regarding the battles between the prophet and the pagans who persecuted him and his followers. Jizya comes from the word jaza' meaning reward or compensate. It is war reperation and not taxes. This taxes was introduced by corrupt dynasties to steal money from people. There is nothing called Dhimma in the Quran and nothing called conquest. The prophet of Islam was a preacher and not some commander or conqueror.

[/QUOTE]

another half truth ...

jizya was indeed a tax but it had to be collected in a humane way and should not impede spread of religion

ummayyads started the practice of exploiting this by exhorting taxes in the name of LAND rather than people and despite conversion people still paid tax, this was highly unpopular but was contrary to the opinion of most concentitious sahaba/tabaeen ( but wo asked them anyway during those times)
Umar b abdulaziz radiallanahu abolised this exploitation and introduced jizya in true form as practiced by khulifa rashideen.

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

[QUOTE]

Plus where were those salaf when Shafi came? Were not the Mu'taziltes in power before Shafi and even during Shafi? They did not have hadiths. Why is this hadiths with such a few people and why is it only with Al Shafi and his gang? This hadiths should be among the masses like the Quran

[/QUOTE]

okay so u follow mutazilites then refer to their debates with ibn hanbal and why hadith lobby won, its a HUGE discussion more complicated than simply this and beyond the scope of this thread.

But the original argument remains what is your source of information of these conflicts ?

clearly no " state department archives" or archeological evidence survives to thisdate so you are stuck with using hadith or history sources ...

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Jizya is not taxes. Its a reperation, a war reperation. It got twisted to mean taxes on jews and Christians. First the Quran never talked about any battles between the prophet and Jews or Christians. All the battles in the Quran are with the pagans. The story of the pagans and the prophet is well documented in the Quran and the Jizya is part of the battles between the prophet and pagans. Its a war reperation, at least thats how i see it in the Quran. Why would the Quran order people to pay taxes to the rulers?

I am not a Mu'tazilite, I am just showing you that the Mu'tazilites never had hadiths to begin with. They never used hadiths or a concept like the Sunnah in their school. Hadiths were unknown and only seemed to have emerged during Shafi' time. We know the muwatta was the first hadith book and we know Shafi was a student of Malik. The hadiths were simply unknown to the masses and if it did spread during the 4 caliphs time it would have been known. Notice Shafi talked about another revelation. That is he introduced a new revelation along with the Quran.

But I agree with you that this is a complicated subject. I really do not like talking about this as an internet forum is not the right place. What i am interested in is what the Quran teaches and how its different from the teachings of the sects. Jizya is one them. The Quran does not have a concept of Dhimmis and taxes and a state. It simply follows the events on the ground as they come along. It follows the prophet like a shadow and deals with matters on the ground. Other than that it talks about the other prophets and their life stories and talks about judgement day and how we should worship God and how we should seek His way.

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

[QUOTE]
First the Quran never talked about any battles between the prophet and Jews or Christians. All the battles in the Quran are with the pagans
[/QUOTE]

but we know that the Propehet fought against and punished jewish tribes. How do u explain that or due doubt the historical accuracy of khaibar, khandaq and banu quraizah incident.

[QUOTE]

The Quran does not have a concept of Dhimmis and taxes and a state.

[/QUOTE]

Here we have a fundamental difference of opinion
I think that islam without a state is an orphan, helpless and at mercy of exploitation.
Foundation of islamic state governed by islamic rules and which dispenses justice for all muslim and nonmuslim is the natural outcome of the "enjoin good and forbid evil " principle in islam.

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

[QUOTE]

They never used hadiths or a concept like the Sunnah in their school. Hadiths were unknown and only seemed to have emerged during Shafi' time.

[/QUOTE]

the formulation of science of hadith is a later phenomena as it was the need of the time.

previously there was NO NEED to have this elaborate chain of transmission and deliberations over isnad

e.g imam abu hanifa how does he get a particular SAYING of the Prophet( or hadith) he asks ibrahim nakhai ( tabeen ) or abu tufayl (sahabi) so no need to present elaborate arguments verifying his sources as he knows them personally

in contrast to this ibn hajar centuries later , has to comb through a wealth of sources avaliable to him and based on this knowledge of narraters and context of hadith give a verdict on its authenticity.So naturally hadith criticism became a more and more complex field as time went on.

again word of caution this does not mean that hadithfabrication did not start very early in muslim period , but thats the reason so many of them are discredited by scholars

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Its not important what my opinion is. What important is what the Quran says. There is no battles in the Quran between the prophet and Jews or Christians. All the battles in the Quran are with the pagans and and all were initiated by the pagans of Mecca and those who aided them.

There is nothing called an Islamic state in the Quran. The Quran simply follows the prophet just like God does with all his prophets like Moses and Noah. The Quran deals with issues on the ground as they come along. If the prophet remained in Mecca the Quran would have talked also about events there. But he was forced into exile and faced persecutions and then later they went to wars with him and it was then that the Quran said after you defeat them you take from the Jizya. What do Christians and Jews today or elsehwere have to do with this? And why should the Quran ask people to pay for a ruler? These hadiths were made to justify a legal framework for an Empire like the Ummayids and the Abbsids. Thats not the Quran's business. The Quran did not come to create a state, it came to warn and guide man about a day where he will face his Creator. The Quran simply follows the prophet like a shadow and the Quran said it will and promised the prophet that God will look after him and the prophet will acomplish his goal, which is to reveal the Quran to mankind. The Quran gives us insights as to the biography of the prophet and guides us as to how we should live our lives and deals with our challenges. It also shows us how God supports His messengers. But a prophet is like any other human being, he has his own biography and circumstances. A prophet's biography is a human experience that can act as a guideline to us as the case with Joseph, Noah and Jesus.

Jo Chahta Tha Muje Ghari Ghari, Jo Jorta Tha Muje Lari Lari
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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

And obey Allah and the Messenger; that ye may obtain mercy. (Surah Aal Imraan, Verse 132)

The Ayaah clearly differentiates the two sets of commandments. The word and in the ayaah clearly denotes that the commands of the Messenger, which we are supposed to obey, are seperate from the commands of Allah, which is the Quran.

Now what is this set of commands or teachings that Allah has commanded us to obey, in the latter part of the Ayah? It clearly cant be the Quran itself, because they have been seperated by an "and".

Timepass - September 2013
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But remember the goodness which God has shown you and how much of the Book and the Wisdom He has sent down to you to admonish you thereby [Q. II, 231].

Shafi said the wisdom is the Sunnah and seperated the two with the "and" you said. However the verb the Quran uses:

وَاذْكُرُوا نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَمَا أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكُم مِّنَ الْكِتَابِ وَالْحِكْمَةِ يَعِظُكُم بِهِ ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

is a singular verb and not a plural verb. Meaning the Quran sees it as one. Also the Quran says"

And call to mind the signs of God and the Wisdom which are recited in your houses; verily God is gentle, well-informed [Q. XXXIII, 34].

Its hard to see how recite here can mean anything other than the Quran. So we then have :

4.59 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

So we have to be somewhat careful as to what the Quran is saying because here its using obedience in a general way. But this is also concerning those who were there at the time of the prophet since they were there to hear him and listen to him and he was there to talk to them and deal with them. But when we are talking about after his death, its another matter since we have the Quran and the Quran never gave us any commands to deal with anything outside it except the previous scriptures. So we must take that command of obedience in a general way. Remember not all Quranist reject hadith outright, many just don't accept it the way the sects do. We will never know what truly happened and we know from the Quran that the hypocrites were spreading lies and rumours when the prophet was still alive so imagine after 150 years. But most of all we must never accept any binding commands not addressed in the Quran and we should not accept what contradict the Quran. I am sure there are many hadiths that are true and reflect truths, but there are many that were placed for theocratic and orthodoxy reasons and many contradict the Quran.

Many hadiths preach righteousness and heavenly works, but many don't and preach hate and violence. So I don't take things like the sects do. But to try to rely on general verses like "obey the messenger" is dangerous. The Quran uses language variably and is often difficult to speculate on their meanings. None of us here take the command to obey those in charge of authority over us in the same way we take a prophet or a messenger.

Plus there is no reason to believe that the prophet dealt with matters and talked about matters seperate from the Quran, at least not in concept. The Quran says:

"Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has shown you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous." (4:105)

"And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you;" (5:48)

"Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches." (6:19)

"We know best what they say, and you are not one to compel them; therefore remind him by means of the Quran who fears My Promise." (50:45)

Of course what God has revealed and shown the prophet is a very broad thing but we must not assume that is could be radically different than the Quran. At least the Quran has the essential aspects of what God revealed to his prophet and what mankind needs to know. I am not saying that all hadiths should be thrown away, but the way the sects have used them and the things they claim is from the prophet can not be so because it contradicts the Quran and it adds to the deen many things the Quran never said. This is a very complicated topic and there will be more debates about this in the future.

Shafi's problem is he over streches the verses of the Quran and this is dangerous. Christians do the same with the Gospel and this leads to taking things out of context.

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

^You are completely upside down on Sunnah and Haidth. Imam MAlik wrote his book of Hadith much earlier than Shafi'i. Plz read about Muwatta IMam MAlik.

Secondly, tere are more than 100 verses of Quran asking obedience of Prophet. Do you consider all those verses redundant?

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

Shut up you Hindu? Don't try to tell us about our religion.

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[QUOTE]
Its not important what my opinion is. What important is what the Quran says. There is no battles in the Quran between the prophet and Jews or Christians. All the battles in the Quran are with the pagans and and all were initiated by the pagans of Mecca and those who aided them
[/QUOTE]
.

so u think all the battles against christians, jews in Seerah are just historical fiction ??

[QUOTE]
There is nothing called an Islamic state in the Quran. The Quran simply follows the prophet just like God does with all his prophets like Moses and Noah. The Quran deals with issues on the ground as they come along. If the prophet remained in Mecca the Quran would have talked also about events there. But he was forced into exile and faced persecutions and then later they went to wars with him and it was then that the Quran said after you defeat them you take from the Jizya. What do Christians and Jews today or elsehwere have to do with this? And why should the Quran ask people to pay for a ruler? These hadiths were made to justify a legal framework for an Empire like the Ummayids and the Abbsids
[/QUOTE]

onthe contrary , abbassid and ummayyad rulers are EXCLUDED from being legal authorities by VAST MAJORITY of scholars.Their value from a theological standpoint is virtually zero.In hadith there are numerous examples of CONDEMNATION of their actions.
Only sources of legal authority are the decisions made by Prophet and pious caliphs.

Can you outline us what the QUran only tells us about the Prophet ?

Mix The username ABove
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Very good Moderators. People are allowed freely to make a joke of our religion and everybody is silent but when I answered then my post is scrambled?????

What a joke? Every thread, I noticed is an attack.......a planned attack by Kafirs. They deliberately try to distort the facts.......and our mouths are shut.....Zulm.

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

bla bla. whatever sect or no sect, koranic or no koranic.....just anything that gets rid of the violence will be ok

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Yes but its during their reign that many activities took place. Of course the sects will attribute their techings to the prophet and the companions since they carry religious authority. Malik was not far away from the Mansour and neither was Shafi or Bukhari unknown to the ruling calls. there is nothing in Sunni fiqh that the ruler can not do other than openly declare his disbelief, obviously.

I don't belive the prophet murdered 600 people in cold blood as Bukhari's hadith claims. During the Mutawakkil the Jews rebelled and he faced several rebelion so maybe this was a way to justify these acts. Its completely and absolutely against everything the Quran stand for. This is why we have terrorism today and killing of civilians and dictators everywhere with the clerics siding with them.