Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

Society Religion & Philosophy
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End of Sunni/Shia sects and rise of the Quranist

With the collapse of Ja’far Al Sadiq’s empire in Iran and Ibn Hanbal’s slow demise in Saudi Arabia, the tide is turning and the fictitous sects that emerged during the Abbasid Empire knows as the Sunni and Shia sects and others who follow man made revelations known as hadiths are slowly collapsing. Malik’s Empire in Sudan is collapsing and Abu Hanifa’s Empire in Pakistan is turning upside down. The so called Islamic states have proven to be ideologically obsolete and in the wrong side of history. The sects are on life support and the Koranist will take over. So who are the Koranist?

The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.

WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND TODAY’S PRACTICES?

In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows:

In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the ?Straight Path? (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books?

In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war?

In Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2:222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times…

In Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (4:12), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants…

In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man?s guardianship (4:3), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut?a)…

In Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a two-phase period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (65:1, 65:4), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification…

In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (12:76), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability…

In Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (24:2), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death…

In Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2:256, 10:99; 18:29; 88:21-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths…

In Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter ?Muslim? must work to attain the status of Faithful ?Mumin? (49:14), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)…

In Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence - no offensives (2:190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards…

In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (22:27-28), Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)…

In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (17:12, 9:36), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time?

In Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (32:7), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases…

In Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful(7:32-33, 16:116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all…

In Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur’an through consultation and free-speech (5:48, 42:38). Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy.

The concept of the Sunnah was invented by Imam Al Shafi in his Risala treatise. It has the same place in Islam as the Talmud has on Judaism. Jesus condemned the Talmud and its followers, the Pharisees, in the Gospel and so did the Koran.

Matt 15:1-3 "Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?”

Matt 23:31-33 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?”

The Koran confirmed Jesus and the Gospel regarding the blind followers of the Talmud who negated the Old Testament.

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile (“Cuthean”) the wages owed him for work.

The Koran condemned this:
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, “there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans).” but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it

In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that “whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world” (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.

*The Koran tells us about this and condemns this: *
5.32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land

"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.

"The more popular accounts–which were nevertheless taken quite seriously–such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name ‘Jesus’ was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists…

On the eve of Passover Jesus was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf.” But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover. Ulla retorted: Do you suppose he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, “Neither shall thou spare nor shall thou conceal him?” With Jesus, however, it was different, for he was connected with the government. (Sanhedrin 43a)

*The koran tells us: *
4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. “Gehenna” is sometimes translated as “hell”, but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.

The Koran responds by:
2.80 And they say: “The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:” Say: “Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?”

Al Shafi claimed in his risala the Koran is insufficient as a religious guide and said the Sunnah was in the hands of “specialist” and is unknown to the public.

33. He asked: What is the second kind?

34. Shafi’i replied: It consists of the detailed duties and rules obligatory on men, concerning which there exists neither a text in the Book of God, nor regarding most of them, a sunna. Whenever a sunna exists [in this case], it is of the kind related by few authorities, not by the public, and is subject to different interpretations arrived at by analogy.

35. He asked: Is [legal knowledge on this kind as obligatory as the other, or is it not obligatory so that he who acquires such knowledge performs a supererogatory act, and he who neglects it falls not into error? Or, is there a third kind, derived from a narrative (khabar) or analogy?

36. [Shafi’i] replied: There is a third kind [of knowledge].

37. He asked: Will you explain it, give its source, and state what [portion] of it is obligatory, and on whom it is binding and on whom it is not binding?

38. [Shafi’i] replied: The public is incapable of knowing this kind of knowledge, nor can all specialists obtain it. But those who do obtain it should not all neglect it. If some can obtain it, the others are relieved of the duty [of obtaining it]; but those who do obtain it will be rewarded.

This bida’ was intorduced in the era of the Abbasids to nullify the Koran. Prior to Al Shafi nobody heard of something called the Sunnah.

“And certainly We have repeated for humankind, in this Qur’an, every kind of example, but the majority of humankind do not consent to anything but denying.”(17:89)

"A. L. R. These are the verses of a Book,- and a Qur’an that makes things clear. "(15:1)

“And certainly We have brought them a Book, which We have detailed with knowledge, a guidance and mercy for a people who believe”(7:52)

“Thus do We make the revelations detailed for a people who reflect” (10:24)

“And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.”(16:89)

These are verses of the Qur’an,-a book that makes (things) clear;"(27:1)

“In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.”(12:111)

**Koran is peace! **

**Real Islam is only Koran!

**

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Koran gives complete freedom

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him;** hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.**

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. *Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper." *

11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, *does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?° *

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... *Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith. *

21:107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."

22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe;** therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."**

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

36:16 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. *Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper. *

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, *but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message. *

67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.

74.11-17** Leave Me with whom I created alone!,** To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!

"So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6:113-114

"And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 6:68

109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

**Quran is freedom, Quran is peace!

**

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Jewish influence in Sunni/Shia sects.

The Sunni Madhab and its carbon copying of the Talmudic Judaism. This link exposes where the Islamic sects stole their fiqh from:

This is the Islam they want us to follow? The Quran said about the Israelites who abandoned the Torah:

62.5 The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes. Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of Allah. and Allah guides not people who do wrong.

The Jews claimed a second revelation came to Moses and they claimed the Old Testament(Torah) was incomplete. They also claimed the second revelation(Talmud) was orally passed down and never recorded in writing. They also believed it was in the hands of a few authorities. They said this second revelation abogates the Torah when necessary. Jesus condemned the Talmud and so did the Koran. The Talmud preaches hate and superiority over other nations and allowed many practices the Torah forbade the Israelites.

Imam Shafi was was born and raised in Palestine and he then created a system of fiqh that was Judaic from top to bottom. This fiqh of Shafi is what Sunnis today follow exactly.

Real Islam is only Quran. Quran is freedom and Quran is peace!

Timepass - September 2013
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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

u have over simplified the things ...................

i agree that the Holy Quarn is the prime source for shariah but u cant deny the importance of Hadiths, Sunnat ,Fiqah, and Ijmaa .......

i wud suggest u to discuss the same wid learned scholars instead of posting it here ............... the principle of shariah and its naunces are not like entertainment gossip ........... that u start discussing wid everyone ..............

further whole post give me a feelings that u have sorted few matters and start developing a point of view ................. one need to think in the totality and further the background of the verse is also very important .............

so i wud suggest u to consult some qualified alim ............. instead of discussing wid the ppl here ...................

Timepass - September 2013
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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

one thing more .................... dont think that u are the first person who have gifted wid the power to differentiate between right and wrong

i wud suggest u to read the book of Dr. Khalid Alvi " the principle of hadith "

then u wud realise that how the ppl in the past work hard for the complilation of Hadith....................... .

The Hi/Bye Thread
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What in the world is going on here?whats with the sudden deluge of hadith bashers and where have they crept from?lol :O subhanallah!

Is some agency funding their activities or what?because this is a direct attack on the second source of Islamic Law..the Sunnah and Hadith..or more simply, an attack on the personality and life of our beloved prophet Muhammad (PBUH) itself!

Why do the enemies of the deen want us to get orphaned by cutting us from our prophet SAW?

Just know 1 thing..u will NEVER succeed!insha'Allah

Guess next poster
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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

what kind of name is the Koranist?

Guess next poster
Guess next poster
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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

"Quran is freedom and Quran is peace!"

this statement is also one sided view ..................

Quran impose many restriction on the man ............ and also ask 4 obedience of allah and prophet

"he who obey allah and the messenger ... shall be with who has allah has favoured ........"

sura An - Nisa 69

further quran asked muslims for jihad as well ............... please read sura tobah and sura anfal

so please learn first and ask allah for his guidance .........

and one more thing ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, buzurgoon ka naam laitay hoay ihetiat say kaam lu yeh nahi kay ju mohn main aay keh du ............ like u have discussed Hazrat Imam Shafi

may allah show us right path

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What issues are you asking regarding background knowledge of the Quran? Plus I have shown the concept of hadith, Sunnah and Qiyas and Ijma' is Jewish. Look at the link I posted in my 3rd post.

There is nothing called Shariah. Shariah in the Quran is mentioned regarding Quran, Torah and Gospel here:

The Shariah Law myth Invented by the Islamic sects

One of the biggest myth propagated by the Sunni/Shia sects is the so called Islamic state or Shariah Law. These sects have created a whole system of theocracy based on their hadiths and fiqh. The concept of the Shariah was formulated by Sunni jursits like Imam Malik and Imam Shafi during the beginnings of the Abbasid Empire. They have produced a whole jurisprudence in criminal laws and property laws and even family laws. They compiled thousands of hadiths from the prophet and his companions to formulate a theocracy and an orthodoxy. I said before the prophet never left behind him any text but the Koran. These hadiths were compiled at the earliest 160 years after Muhammad. The sects relied on some verses of the Koran to justify an Islamic state as they call it. Lets look at them:

5.48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

5.49. And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah.s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.

5.50. Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah.

However lets look at the context of these verses in chapter 5.

  1. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them(Torah)?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

  2. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) the Unbelievers.

  3. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

  4. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

  5. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

  6. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute

Here the Koran makes it clear that though the Koran, Gospel and OT are three different communities of believers, they are one in faith. There are believers among these communities and non believers. The Koran says each community should judge by the scriptures they inherited. Sunnis and Shias believe these scriptures(Torah and Gospel) have been abrogated and replaced by Muhammad and the Koran. Yet we see here clearly the Koran saying it confirmed the previous scriptures and says it must be followed and each community should follow its laws and commands. So how did the Sunnis solve this contradiction. Sunnis claim these verses are talking about how each community should practice its own shariah law in an Islamic state. Jews should live under Judaic law and Christians under Christian law. This was made to solve the minority problem in the so called Islamic state. They relied on this hadith to change the nature of these verses:

*'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported: *

**A Jew and a Jewess, who had committed adultery, were brought to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to the Jews and said: What do you find in Torah for those guilty of adultery? They said: We darken their faces and make them ride on the donkey with their faces turned to the opposite direction (and their backs touching each other), and then they are taken round (the city). **He said: Bring Torah if you are truthful. They brought it and recited it until when they came to the verse pertaining to stoning,* the person who was reading placed his hands on the verse pertaining to stoning, and read (only that which was) between his hands and what was subsequent to that. 'Abdullah bin Salam who was at that time with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Command him (the reciter) to lift his hand. He lifted it and there was, underneath that, the verse pertaining to stoning. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about both of them and they were stoned. 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said: I was one of those who stoned them, and I saw him (the Jew) protecting her (the Jewess) with his body.* Sahih Bukhari

Of course this hadith is a fabrication. Why, because what would happen if the adulterers were Christians and the Gospel was used? There is no theocracy in the Gospel. There is no marriage laws or criminal laws or any other communal laws there. So what did the Koran mean? It is quite clear the Koran is not talking about a theocracy where Muslims live by Islamic law and Jews and Christians by Christian and Judaic law, as the case in the so called Islamic state. The Koran is saying each community should take its religious laws from the scriptures and not from(I believe) the talmud, the Church and their trinity and the so called hadith of Muslims.

This is because the religion of the scriptures are one, but they are followed by different communities. These communities have abandoned the scriptures for man made dogmas with each accusing the other of disbelief regardless of an individuals faith in God and the hereafter.

It is clear the Sunnis could not bring a hadith of a theocratic nature regarding Christians so they brough a Jew instead to twist the verse to mean the law of man and not the law of God. It is clear that the same hadith could not have worked with a Christian and a Gospel.

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

The Koran then say:

"To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way"(manhaj and Shariah)

Its obvious that the Koran means to judge your religion by the laws of the Gospel. Take your theology and rights and wrongs from the scriptures and not eslewhere. It is very clear that the hadith was made to change the meaning to mean to rule by the common laws you find in the Torah and Koran. However they missed the Gospel. How would the prophet rule against Christians commiting adultery or even stealing when there is nothing about such things in the Gospel? Yet the Koran says "

"To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way"

The theocratic nature of the scriptures can change from scriptures to scriptures and in fact becuause Jesus never even ruled or governed you don't see verses in the Gosple about communal laws for him to implement on his subjects. These communal laws are human laws that change with time but the Sunni jurists twisted that verse to go beyond what it saying.
Plus I wonder if the Torah has been corrupted and tampered with and has been abrogated as Sunnis claim, why on earth will the Koran order these communities to abide by its laws.?

It very clear this hadith was made to fulfill the needs of a theocracy by turning these communal laws into a theocracy.** And I wonder if these communal laws were Divine why on earth do they change from the Torah to the Koran and why on earth did the Gospel not reveal any of them?** The sects seem to mix the sira and biography of the prophets with Divinity. The Koran tells us not to seperate between the prophets and now I have shown we should not seperate between the scriptures. All the prophets were the same faith and preached the same message but as humans they had different biographies.

Quran is peace!

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

stop copy pasting man ................... by da way r u muslim ?

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Jihad means strive. The Quran uses Qital(slaying) for fighting and not Jihad. The Quran is very clear about when to fight and with whom here:

Koran on war and fighting

After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam's true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse:

9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

And also this verse:

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

These verse are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. But why do they tend to focus on this one? Its simple, the other verses tend to show the defensive nature of the jihad and also the malicious intent and behavior of the pagans. Thus never cited. Lets look at some of them:

2.190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

Also:

2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran as saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.

Lets however look at the verse that is often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context this verse is talking.

9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9.6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

9.7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

However in the same chapter in explains the reason behind these battles that took place and the intention behind these verses:

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

Its important for us to understand what the Koran is saying. When the koran says if they repent and establish regular prayers and so on, its not a command to attack them till they do that. Its a command to say if they choose to one day becoming Muslims, do not despise them because of past blood. Let bygones be bygones because now there are your brethren. If he chooses to remain pagan then let him be and do not fight him unless he chooses to fight you. The verse are read wrong, since many pagans converted to Islam and some of the earlier believers had problems with individuals who they fought before or were persecuted and oppressed by them before. These battles took place when the prophet was sent into exile and made an agreement to be able tp go to pilgrimage to Mecca where his followers used to be.

The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.

As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

Permission (to fight) is given* to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

However both Sunni Islam or Shia islam do not follow the Koranic guidance. They follow whats know as the hadiths. The hadiths are the supposed "oral" prophetic traditions they say was passed along orally across time and was collected and written down 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet. The prophet and his companions never left behind them any text except the Koran. The hadiths emerged during the reign of the Abbasid empire and was a way to establish an orthodoxy and give legitimacy to a corrupt dynasty by using the prophet's name. Everything from executing apostates, to stoning adulterers and labelling other monotheist as infidels have their support not in the koran, but in these so called hadiths. So hadiths have the same place in sectarian Islam as do the Talmud in Judaism. The Koran condemned the Talmud and Jesus in the Gospel of Mark 7 also condemned the Talmud. The Koran only recognizes the Torah and the Gospel. However like Islam, both these religions have abandoned these scriptues for either a supposed "oral" tradition that emerged centuries later or a supposed "holy ghost" who was to interpret the Gospel in ways not supported by the Gospel.

The Sunnis and Shias under the abbsids twisted the term Jizya to mean taxes. Jizya was talked about in the Quran once in verse 9-29 regarding the battles between the prophet and the pagans who persecuted him and his followers. Jizya comes from the word jaza' meaning reward or compensate. It is war reperation and not taxes. This taxes was introduced by corrupt dynasties to steal money from people. There is nothing called Dhimma in the Quran and nothing called conquest. The prophet of Islam was a preacher and not some commander or conqueror.

The Koran makes clear the job of the prophet:

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

But most of all the Koran asks the prophet himself this question:

10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe? No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand

109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine

Quran is peace, Quran is freedom. Real Islam is only Quran.

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

another heretic troller - why do you not give us all a rest and give yourself a favour by remaining silent. and if you seek jahanam so badly then continue to remain upon your beliefs of kufr

why open a new thread on this subject - another heretic friend of yours is already archiving the feast of kufr in another thread. so let's continue there and maybe learn to use your own words instead of copying pasting

13

So the Quran became kufr and Bukhari became Iman? Everything I posted is my own work. I don't go to some "sheikh" and get my deen from them. I get it from the Quran.

The Quran shall return.

Timepass - September 2013
Timepass - September 2013
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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

^right...and you think this somehow boosts up your heretical belief. keep day dreaming and you guys will not last long just like the extremists heretics in the past!

15

Peace Bigmo

That is really funny. You have qualified your own mind as an authority and rejected our authorities the people who have devoted their lives in obtaining knowledge of Islam having been taught by those who sought knowledge from their teachers in turn who sought knowledge from their teachers going back in an unbroken chain of tutelage to the Salaf, companions and ultimately the prophet Muhammad (SAW) ... with many of our scholars we have a silsila to demonstrate this chain.

You have nothing but your own mind as an authority and then you expect us to somehow consider your position a strong one? let alone a valid one!

16

As long as my view is supported by the Quran then the Quran has the authority and not me. I don't have any authority. There will be others who might have a different Quranic perspective about a topic but very rarely does the Quran support a Sunni or Shia view.

17

if u had some sense n could interpret the Quran correctly, u wouldn't be sayin this..

18

Despite Quran being the real islam, you will always see different interpretations of ullama e deen, each interpreted based on their own knowledge. Despite having the Quran unchanged for so long, Muslim Ummah are divided into sects and even sub-sects. There is a difference in someone interpreting Quran based on their own Islamic knowledge without divine guide, and someone who claim to be sent by Allah and interpret it for all of us. Even if that someone ( Mahdi AS ), interpret the Quran, He will still face opposition..as has always happened with the truthful people.. thus, creating another jamaat in the already-so-divided ummah. Which one of the interpretation of Quran to follow?..ullamas without divine knowledge, or someone who Allah has appointed as the Imam Mahdi AS... we leave it to the followers of Muhammad PBUH, the Muslim ummah.

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

:rolleyes: @this thread.

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Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sect

Mr. Koranist..please inform us on how you plan to do Hajj, (i.e. if you consider yourself a muslim).

You cant say Hajj is not required, cause Allah has made it an obligation in the Quran.

According to your argument, you cant be doing Hajj like how everyone else does, because we take all of the rituals of Hajj from the Hadith of the Prophet.

And while you're at it....please tell us how you plan to Pray and pay Zakaah.