Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Why are bankers as a rule opposed to the existence of genuine money and prefer the existence of so-called credit money?

    • If bankers are compelled to lend genuine money they are merely acting as agents for some real depositors and thereby are profiting only insofar as they are handling genuine money to the extent of the total amount of genuine money deposited with them. If bankers are privileged to lend credit money it means that they are not lending, as a rule, depositor's genuine money but are lending ten or fifteen or twenty times the amount of genuine deposits. They create credit money or fictitious money by a flourish of the fountain pen. Thus instead of lending only actually, for example, a million dollars of total deposits at 3% with the return of $30,000 profit the bankers are lending under the credit money racket, for example $20 million, $19 million of which is fiction. In this latter case their profit would be approximately $600,000.
    • Therefore, bankers are opposed to honest money and to honest lending because of the difference of profits which in the case above would amount to approximately $570,000. But why should citizens be opposed to bankers making this extra profit?
    • Because this extra $570,000 must be taken out of the sweat of the labourer. It is a social injustice which permits privileged classes to reap where they did not sow.

Do fundamental, Christian, moral, ethical and philosophical principles harmonise with private ownership of property employed in or available for use in producing wealth?

  • - Yes. Private ownership of honestly acquired property, employed in production is in full harmony with Christian principles.

Is capitalism, as we find it in operation today, in perfect harmony with Christian, moral, ethical and philosophical principles?

    • Emphatically, no. Masquerading under the title of capitalism, modern capitalism is notorious for the following errors which are contrary to human nature and to good government.
    • 1. Modern capitalism borrows money at interest for non-productive and destructive purposes.
    • 2. Modern capitalism, while professing in the belief in private ownership, concentrates the wealth in the hands of a few and deprives the mass of private individuals from owning the tools of production.
    • 3. Modern capitalism professes to believe in the private coinage and regulation of money...
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Matsui !

This article is not from a any -- khilafah.com and/or karlmarx.com -- I dont know what these sites are. - A freind sent me in email. he told me its written by a Jew.

See what is written dont see who has written

Sorry its a lengthy article.

regards

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(still continue ...)

Does social justice imply that its followers adhere to the doctrine of modern capitalism?
No. In the four above mentioned errors of modern capitalism, social justice is opposed to this economic system.

Did Karl Marx ever attack private money creation privileges and international bankers?
No, his whole system proposed not the abolition of illicit private money creation and destruction powers, but its consolidation under a system of complete economic, political and religious domination of the entire world by a few internationalists.

Do all people have equal opportunity under our present money system? No, they do not.
"They say to us that we all have an equal opportunity, and that it is our fault that we do not become rich. They seek, however, in every way possible, to prevent us from taking the only opportunity we have to all become successful for they know that if we did, it would end their exploits." (From "Why is Your Country at War" by Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. in a speech urging the passage of a bill to provide a honest money system.)

Why is it that the modern newspaper (free press) upholds modern capitalists?

Because the modern newspaper, in many instances, is owned or controlled by the banker or the banker dominated advertiser who insists that the editorial matter in a modern newspaper does not militate against the interests of the modern capitalist.

Is usury opposed to morality?

Yes, and it is also opposed to Christian teaching.

(Article from New Dawn magazine -- a magazine exposing consensus reality, and publishing suppressed information. Sample copy for A$5 can be obtained from: GPO Box 3126FF, Melbourne, 3001, AUSTRALIA).

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If bankers are compelled to lend genuine money they are merely acting as agents for some real depositors and thereby are profiting only insofar as they are handling genuine money to the extent of the total amount of genuine money deposited with them. If bankers are privileged to lend credit money it means that they are not lending, as a rule, depositor's genuine money but are lending ten or fifteen or twenty times the amount of genuine deposits. They create credit money or fictitious money by a flourish of the fountain pen. Thus instead of lending only actually, for example, a million dollars of total deposits at 3% with the return of $30,000 profit the bankers are lending under the credit money racket, for example $20 million, $19 million of which is fiction. In this latter case their profit would be approximately $600,000

Credit money racket? Care to explain what this is? I don;t think you understand concepts like custody and asset and liabilities management guidelines, enterprise risk management, and whole host of regulatory guidelines like Basel II that make such notions impossible. Banking has more rules than Islam and 99% of the time, they work better and are more adaptable.

You haven't answered my questions above re: innovation and it's impact on creation as described by you.

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(still continue ...)

.../Next PageThe Evil of Usury

The extraction of usury is "one of the oldest professions of man." (Forrest M. Smith, III, The Regulation of Interest: Practice and Procedure, 10 ST. MARY'S L. REV. 825, 1979). First came the Temple Priests, then the Goldsmiths and the commercial bankers of today. The first use of the fractional reserve system was in the Temple of Shamash under Hammurabi -- the sixth king of Babylon (Peter Cook, FEDERAL RESERVE FRACTIONAL RESERVE AND INTEREST-FREE GOVERNMENT CREDIT EXPLAINED 4, 1991).

The ecclesiastical doctrine of interest was the greatest obstacle to modern banking. It was primarily based upon 1) Aristotle's condemnation of interest as an unnatural breeding of money by money, 2) Christ's (supposed) condemnation of interest (Luke 6:34) and the reaction of the Fathers of the Church against commercialism and usury in Rome. (Will Durant, THE AGE OF FAITH 630, 1950). The moral condemnation of this ancient practice has been summarized: "It comes as news to most people to learn that practically all important ethical teachers -- Moses, Aristotle, Jesus, Mohammed, and Saint Thomas Aquinas, for instance -- have denounced lending at interest as usury and as morally wrong" (Lawrence Dennis, "The Squirrel Cage of Debt," Saturday Review of Literature 661, June 24, 1933).

Usury has been condemned since biblical times. (George Braden, II THE CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF TEXAS: AN ANNOTATED AND COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS 729, 1977). It was originally considered usurious to make any charge for the use of money. Id. Originally the word interest had the same essential meaning as usury. Smith, III, p. 826. The word "usury" used to mean any interest. It came to mean interest that exceeds the rate established by law (Ken Warner, GIVE US A KING 120-121, 1988).

Interest comes from the Latin verb "intereo" meaning to be lost. F.W. Maisel at 141, The ancient Israelites called usury "a bite." It is like the slow poison of a serpent: "Usury does not all at once destroy a man or nation with, as it were, a bloody gulp. Rather, it slowly, sometimes nearly imperceptibly, subverts the victim's constitution until he cannot prevent the fatal consequences even though he knows what is coming." Mooney, p. 23. The practice of lending to an enemy was "as a means of destroying him" (Jno. H. Kimmons, Usury: What Is It, and Does the Law of God Forbid It? 163, Undated).

The Old Testament "classes the usurer with the shedder of blood, the defiler of his neighbor's wife, the oppressor of the poor, the spoiler by violence, the violator of the pledge, the idolater, and pronounces the woe upon them, that they who commit these iniquities shall surely die." Id. at 2. The usurer was put in the same category with extortioners, Sabbath-breakers, those who vex the fatherless and widows, dishonor parents and accept bribes (Ezekiel 22). Id. at 17. The usurer was also classed with the liar, the unrighteous, the backbiter, the slanderer and perjurer, and denied the right to inherit the New Jerusalem (Psalm 15). Id. The usurer is further classed with the meanest and lowest of men and the vilest of criminals (Ezekiel 18). Id.

Before the Babylonian captivity, Ezekiel denounced the practice of usury as a great evil and mentioned the practice of oppressing strangers as part of the great wickedness. Id. at 9. Interest repayments on loans, even to resident strangers was forbidden in the year of Jubilee (Leviticus 25:35-37) whereas in regular years it was permissible to charge interest to strangers (Deuteronomy 23:19-20). Id. at 3.

Zechariah forbade "the oppression of the stranger, classing it with oppression of the widow, the fatherless and the poor..." Id. at 9. Malachi "enjoins regard for the stranger's rights." Id.

Nehemiah, after the captivity, boldly denounced usury (Nehemiah 5:9-11), instituted a reform and had retribution made for all usurious holdings. Id. Those who can abide in the Tabernacle or dwell in the holy hill include (Psalm 15:1): "He that putteth not out his money to usury." Id. at 9.

Solomon gave us the proverb, "the borrower is servant to the lender." Id. at 15.

The New Testament embraces both Jew and Gentile. Id. at 3.

The New Testament continued the prohibition of usury: "In the fullness of time the Messiah came, and no part of the moral law was abrogated. The prohibition of usury as to the Jew was extended, to include mankind, and the permit as to the stranger was declared inoperative and void. The Jew was taught to sympathize with strangers remembering that they were once strangers in Egypt." Id. at 9-10.

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Jesus taught (Luke 6:34-35) "love ye your enemies, and do good and lend, hoping for nothing again." Id. at 10. Usury was the basis for Jesus's calling the money changers thieves: "The commerce of the world is conducted on principles as much at variance with the teachings of the master, as are the practices of a sneak thief or burglar. So the Master taught, as with whip of cords, he indignantly drove its representatives, from the sacred precincts of the Temple, denouncing them as thieves. Every well-informed mind knows that the money changers in the Temple, on that startling occasion, were at the very center of the Jewish Banking system, and of the pitiless and grinding commerce of Palestine." Id. at 19.

In Jesus' parable on the subject of usury (Matthew 25:26-27; Luke 19:22-23) "only the hard, austere man, one whose conscience will not interfere with his reaping where he has not sown, and taking up where he has not laid down, would extract usury, for he makes the lord of the parable tell the servant of it: You say I am a hard and austere man, then why did you not act accordingly, and earn me my usury as my nature demanded?" Id. at 3.
Assuming there is a stranger exception, "where is the authority for the practice of usury on our brethren?" Id. at 3. The taking of interest is "subversive of the principles of a sound state policy, contrary to good morals, and opposed to the teaching of God's Word." Id. at 10. The meaning of "usury" has been changed "to mean exhorbitant interest.

The Apostle Peter publicly told his vision: "And in another lake, full or pitch and blood and more bubbling up, there stood men and women on their knees: and these were usurers and those who had taken interest. . ." Antinicene Fathers, Vol. IX, p. 146. The Apostle Paul, in telling his vision, said: "And I saw another multitude of men and women, and worms consumed them. But I lamented and sighing asked the angel and said, 'Who are these?' And he said to me: These are those who exacted interest ON interest, and trusted in their riches and did not hope in God that He was their helper." Antinicene Fathers, Vol. IX, p. 160.

A long-existing and self-perpetuating tax-immune internationalist-transnationalist group uses fronts with inter-locking corporate and or fraternal group of individuals, whose membership is either secret or semi-secret, with undisclosed ownership shares, has usurped the sovereignty of borrowing national governments (who serve their lenders). It includes largely unrevealed yet reported campaign contributors who also control the media and press, all major political parties, and dictates presidential appointments. It abhors the direct issuance of money by elected officials and through the creation of a system of privately-owned and controlled central banks, holds all of the world's gold and all loan and mortgage paperwork.

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Its business is conducted in secret meetings which determine the future of all national economies and the timing of expansion (through loans) or contraction (through no loans). It exercises an exclusive monopoly of the issuance of money created out of thin air and issued solely as debt, does not create money to repay the interest, and lives off perpetual national debts that consume future income and under international law cannot be repudiated even by an internal political revolution. At least for others, it tends to be pro-bureaucracy, pro-abortion/population control, pro-government education, anti-family, anti-nationalist, anti-inheritance, anti-private property and anti-Jesus Christ. This group can demand special privileges and even military force to collect "national" debts.

It plans to soon accomplish global disarmament (of both civilians and nations) and have a monopoly on force (including nuclear weapons). It has the privilege of a guaranteed untaxable income enforced by liens on all public and personal property and collected by the coercive force of the taxing structure of the various governments. The basis for its continued existence is continued usury and unforgiving collection of all debts resulting from committing the highest crime of usury.

(END)

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^ :mudhosh: 6 jews run the world…we ar back to square one.

Bhaijaan, I havea simle question. What do YOU think about innovation conundrum I posed up earlier. I can go and find numerable articles that woul dmake Islamic finance look like two laundays playing kanchey as an economic system…not hard to do. But I would rather try to understand what you think you understood from this long cut and paste conspiracy theory?

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^^

its not cut and paste - its copy and paste.

now let me see where is your question about innovation

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^ I have not read the article yet...but

[quote]
6 jews run the world...
[/quote]

is not very accurate statement.....
make it 10 :p

See we can say, at present capitalism may be the order of the day, but it is certainly not the best financial system ...

In the last century, world has seen tremendous growth in total resources(wealth) of world. but sadly worlds 90% of the resources are controlled by 10% of the population. and more then half of the world's population lives in poverty.

The divide between rich and poor have increased many fold. It is a very visible scar on the face of earth. There may be other reasons for that, but financial system of the world is far from impartial and it is heavily skewed towards the rich and powerful.

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^ but the reality is human condition has improved the most in the last 100 years than ever before. Innovation in medicine, technology, mobility are all a by product of this. Even if you compare the poor, there wer eore poor people across the world as a percentage of total before the last century than today. people generally lvie longe rhealthier lives now than ever before...

Even the economic system today is not true capitalism...it has socialist ideals built in..it is a hybrid..ever evolving and ever improving. THis is what makes it universal.

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[quote]
^ but the reality is human condition has improved the most in the last 100 years than ever before.
[/quote]

This is veryyyy debatable statement ! And most probably the facts and figures will go against it

The economic system of today, leaves many things to be desired. So saying that there is no better alternative available is wrong.

Islamic system of finances does consider the risk factor, but it is against multiplying and compounding of capital without any constructive/productive activity taking place from this capital.

Islamic finance, is practically not entirely different from current system of finances, but of course the major different is in basics.

It is very detailed topic, I am not going to discuss it here.

Just want to say that it is common knowledge that current system is not the best, and there are many flaws. You can not say that Islamic system is not fit for mankind, when it was very functional for many centuries in many continents :)

Random fact

The earliest known financial transactions (cheques and money orders) taking place through men were recorded in Islamic empires. Where muslim merchant in Egypt and Asia, used to write cheques as payments of goods and transactions took place at some other land (mostly india)

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Actually no..measure of human condition can be dealt with interms of HDI indicators…lifespan, income levels..data is there. Scientific and economic…all indicators point to a better life fo rhumans within the last 100 yrs than even before.

Islamic finance is rooted in 7th century arabia and does not have the ability unless changed as the base to become valid today. Simple point is innovation I mentioned earlier. Parameterizing innovation along religious principles will always lead to stagnation because of haram/halaal mentality. Now someone will bring in Medieval sciences in Islam’s golden era, the reality is that advances made then are always compared to europe. China and India were not in scope. Things were already way beyond where Europe was.

It might be common knowledge among muslims but among the 5/6th of humanity the current market based capitalism is the best thing since sliced bread. Go ask the billion people in CHina or the billions in INdia whether they would have the Islamic finance system or capitalism as they see today? Siht..go ask Pakistanis.

Earliest known financial transactions were actually much before Islam (another fallacy you should erase) in what is today Iraq. Where currency was used to speculate trade timings. Therefore a mecahnism for hedging and assigning value to time therefore giving the transaction itself value of its own.

Human knowledge and ability to adapt cannot be parameterized via religion. Unless ISlamic finance changes, gives up the idiotic concept of equating riba with interest, it will never be a playah..people are much smarter than ever before. :slight_smile:

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The question Matsui is asking and his point of view is quite valid, in my opinion. Without getting into the futile discussion of his being Muslim or not, let us deal with the issues. To be honest yes I 100% believe that Islam is for all times to come and that RIba/usury/interest is haram.

The question still remains in millions of Muslim minds, how then do we do live in today's world? Ofcourse interest is Haram but what is the way out then? How does a person who needs money, obtain finance when nobody is ready to give Qard e Hassana? How does a widow survive when her only source of money is what she gets from keeping money in a savings account?

Without declaring me a kafir or munkar e hadith please present solutions. I am already saddened by our ulema.

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I dont want to go off topic here, but just want to clear one thing that its not the ullama who should be blamed for this but rather the leaders of the Islamic countries should be blamed for not streamlining thier financial sectors in a more Islamic manner.

Matsui, Code red is just talking about early financial transactions such as Cheques and money orders, and he is right about those, and you are right about the earliest financial transactions taken place in Iraq in Mesopotamian era. So there is no fallacy here.

[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Code_Red
The earliest known financial transactions (cheques and money orders)

[/QUOTE]

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Fine...no problem..could have been written with more clarity.

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i have a question, i understand why interest is haram in the sense of savings accounts and charging it etc, but why is it haram for someone to take out a loan for something like a home?? you are being taken advantage of sure, but that's your choice as opposed to you taking advantage of someone else?

i know these questions are random, but i truly don't know much about this concept except that its haraam

thanks in advance :)

salam

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^
Sid: Any transaction involving interest/usury is Forbidden. It’s like drinking alcohol is haram but if you sell it, will it be OK? why not? you are not consuming it? but selling it is haram too for you are earning out of it. It is forbidden to give money in riba too. Interest/usury is termed as oppression in Islam. Either way, it is wrong:

It is reported by Al-Bukhaari, that Bilaal:razi: came to the Prophet:saw: with some barni (a type of dates), who asked him:** “From where did you bring these?”** Bilaal:razi: replied: “I had some inferior kind of dates and exchanged two sa’ah of them for one sa’ah of barni dates, in order to give them to the Prophet:saw: to eat.”

Thereupon, the Prophet:saw: said: **“Beware! Beware! This is precisely ribaa! This is precisely ribaa! Don’t do so, but if you want to buy (a superior kind of dates) sell the inferior kind of dates for money and then buy the superior kind of dates with that money.” **

And it is reported that ‘Umar:razi: said: “Abstain from ribaa and rabeebah (transactions resembling ribaa, in which there is some doubt).”

Note the word rabeebah.

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^ it is all garbage 714... think with your head. If you have the capital to buy a home, then pay cash. If you don't, then the cash has a value which includes the time you would pay it off in and your ability to pay it off meaning risk...that is that interest component. You ar ebulding equity as well with the hoome that you bought, which is no where in the islamic scriptures.

There were no mortgages in 7th century arabia. that is the point. These guys will spout hellfire and fury but god cannot be that silly.

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Sid, for further understanding of Islamic point of view, read this:

Anas :razi: said that he heard the Messenger of Allah :saw: say: “Among the signs of the Last Hour will be the removal of knowledge and the abundance of ignorance …” (Bukhari, Muslim).

There is widespread ignorance amongst Muslims in this age concerning the subject of the prohibition of riba in Islam. And yet it appears to us from New York, the riba capital of the world, that there is, perhaps, no other subject more important than this to which Muslims should be directing urgent attention, for it is here that the fiercest attack of all has been launched by the enemies of Allah :swt:.The widespread ignorance concerning the prohibition of riba is most certainly a confirmation of that sign of the Last Hour spoken of by Prophet Muhammad :saw:.
Any attempt to demonstrate the importance of the prohibition of riba in Islam ought to be based upon the two basic sources of Islam, the word of Allah :swt: and the word of the Prophet :saw:. The Prophet :saw: had, earlier in the day of Friday the 9th, of Dhu al-Hijjah 10 A.H., delivered the khutbah al-wida´ in which, among other things, he enforced the prohibition of riba retroactively. He thus completed the process of the total eradication of riba from the economy and society over which Islam exercised control. Then, at about the time of asr of that same day, Allah (SWT) sent down the Revelation announcing the essential completion of the process of Revelation of Divine guidance to humanity:

This day have those who disbelieve given up hope of (destroying) your Deen. So fear them not. Rather fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your Deen, and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as your Deen al-Islam (i.e., submission to the Supreme Will of Allah).(Al-Maa´ida 5:3)

It certainly appeared as though the process of Divine Revelation of the verses of the Qur´an had come to an end. And yet this was not so. Some eighty-one days after the Revelation of the above verse the Prophet :saw: died. Shortly before his death, however, Allah (SWT) sent down the last Revelation with which He completed the Revelation of the Qur´an. In fact that last Revelation also terminated the process of the Revelation of Divine guidance which had commenced with our father Adam (AS), and had lasted for thousands of years. There can be no doubt that the topic chosen for the last Revelation must be one of supreme importance. What was the last Revelation?

The Last Revelation
In the last Revelation Allah (SWT) , the Wise, chose to return to a subject which had already been dealt with in earlier Revelations — in the Qur´an as well as in the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel — namely the subject of the prohibition of riba.
On the authority of ahadith received from both Ibn Abbas (RAA) and from Umar (RAA), we know that the last Revelation received by the blessed Prophet (SAW), shortly before his death, was the passage in Surah Al-Baqarah (2:278-281) which dealt with riba:
Umar Ibn Khattab (RAA) said: "The last verse to be revealed was on riba, but Allah´s Messenger (SAW) was taken without having expounded it to us; so give up not only riba but also reebah/rabeebah (whatever raise doubts in the mind about its rightfulness). (Ibn Majah, Darimi)

"O you who believe, fear Allah and give up what remains (due to you) from riba (from now onwards) if you are indeed believers … (up to) And none shall be dealt with unjustly. (Al-Baqarah 2:278-281)

Ibn Abbas (RAA) said: “This was the last verse revealed to the Prophet (SAW).” (Bukhari)

That last Revelation confirmed the Prophet´s retroactive enforcement of the legislation prohibiting riba in the khutba al-wida from Arafat. The last Revelation is to be found in this passage from the Qur´an.

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