Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
^ 714..did this hellfire and brimstone post answer your question? I didn’t think so.. 
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
ergh. Muslims are also supposed to obey the laws of the land.
As a student, if I have no choice other than to pay thru an interest-based loan, I dont think that's haraam.
I think, in fact, charging interest probably makes one way more guilty than the person purchasing the item by interest-based economics.
Muslims did not make capitalism as the main economic system of the States and other countries. Adam-what's his name did (Adam Smith? gaw, I forget my Amrikan history).
So go with the flow guys. With all these systems muslims have in place thru their shariah, we have yet to build a functional country. So we shouldn't be yapping away in the first place, really.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
im not getting in the middle of this
but matty 
and AQ bhai, thank you 
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
there is this ayah for bani israel in quran which is true for us too in these days that talk about how they used to follow a part of book but reject the rest… if laws of lands are in disobidience of Allah and Rasool, go ahead, follow them good luck!
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
hmmm… loan with interest!!.. I never took student loan as it involves riba for sure… I was eligible for financial Aid and there was no pay-back (with interest) on that so I chose that.. as for if it is not haraam just because one is involved in it, as mentioned above in surah baqarah ayaah 279 it’s said,
“If you do not, take notice of war from Allah and his Messenger sallallahu alaihe wasallm but if you repent you shall have your capital sum. Deal not unjustly and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.”
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
^ It is of no use to repeating something dozen time which is common knowledge.
Interest is haram. agreed. now, Please provide solutions !
Just that you were lucky, it does not mean that everyone is lucky to get interest free loans.
If one needs money ( say for studies or building home) and there are no other option available other than student loans/ interest based loans then what should one do ?
If someone is thirsty you can not just repeatidly tell him that available drink is haram, and he will burn in helfire for drinking it, instead you need to tell him to go to that place and get clean drinking water.
These are very important/ legitimate problems and they require practical solutions. and your posting decrees after decrees are of no help sadly
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
I am amazed to see you annoyed even knowing that reminder does require constant repeatation according to Quran itself..
as for solution, may be just like you ignored the part where some one called names to some one [selectively speaking:)] (as ignoring is the sanest thing to do), I am assuming you already missed the last sentence of this reply:
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=3127722&postcount=29
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
Code Red, the answer is that if you are a smart muslim, who wants to go a good school in the US and can get in but cannot afford it then you are screwed per the firebrand mullah interpretation of what is Usury. You will have to sacrifice your intellectual curiosity and forgo the opportunities that might be available through a top notch reputed school. You will have to resort to going to Queens college or something with the dumb muslims and resign yourself to a future of middling for your family and kids...but atleast you didn't partake in usury. Because that is what god wants..now what was that about practicality of Islam, I hear so often. :)
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
Matsui, That is why Islam says taking Usury is Haram, not giving. I raised this point before in this thread.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
^ are you for real? If usury is wrong, it is ok to be the lender but not the lendee? If it is wrong it is wrong…what is this “taking is wrong” but "giving is ok. " DO you not see how stupid that is?
SO that would mean that muslims in the west or US in particular should be resigned to a second class education because taking loans what would be usury is considered against the wishes of GOD. WOW! I am beginning to see now why the muslim world is going in the opposite direction while the rest of the world is moving forward. Thanks for clarifying. 
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
*** Correction ***
That is why Islam says taking Usury is Haram , not giving specifically from those who don’t believe in Islam and its Laws.. I raised this point before in this thread - You new question is valid. Right now I am busy, will try to give you answer with some simple example – you can rephrase your question with this correction. Thanks,
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
Ok thanks for replying, I missed it earlier
So there is alternate available for home financing. good. :k:
It is murab’ha mode of Islamic financing, where bank or mortgage company will actually be a trading company. Who will buy and then sell the property on higher rates, which is business and allowed in Islam ! right ?
Now, we need to find the solution for student loans without interest.
I know if there is a will then there is a way
Matsui- frankly your theory that there is no usuary involved in current financial instruments is really a big turn-off. 
Your theory of excess intersest = usuary does not hold true. Infact, in 7th century Arabia or in 19th century India Inerest (usuary ) was pretty much regulated.
Ever heard term * 2 takka, 3 takka beyaaj* that beyaaj was determined by market rates, and Any bannya could not have offered higher rates of bayaaj It would be loss for him as market is offering better rates. so practically that beyaaj was also controlled by market rates.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
I don;t think you get it at all. No one has yet been able to explain why interest is haram. Only that god said it is haram. That means...muslims in the us are doomed to either hell if they take student loans or a life of mediocrity because they choose illogical edicts over practicality. It's a lose lose.
Let me repeat..usury is charging excessive interest above and beyond what is the notional value of the amount borrowed as per market norms due to the exigencies in place. Interest is not usury. It is the intent to screw the b@stard that is borrowing money i.e. loan sharking that is usury. Until you understand and get this concept I am afraid you are going to be lost.
Red it form the top again..also look for calculating interest. Let me give you an example. General Motors's financial position is quite precarious currently. The money they can raise as Debt will come just above junk bond rating. But Toyota's position is much better, they can raise debt at a lower cost. Why the descrepancy? Under islam..both would be treated the same. Which is logically worng.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
[quote]
Let me repeat..usury is charging excessive interest above and beyond what is the notional value of the amount borrowed as per market norms due to the exigencies in place. Interest is not usury. It is the intent to screw the b@stard that is borrowing money i.e. loan sharking that is usury. Until you understand and get this concept I am afraid you are going to be lost.
[/quote]
You did not explain how someone can do this in open market ?. Unless you are suggesting that there were no open market like situation in old days. which again is not true, Bayaaj was pretty much regulated and basically included this time value of money. You are suggesting that one banyya offered loan @ 3 takka bayaaj and other offered @ 6 takka bayaj ? and poor borrower went for 6 takka bayaaj to get screwed ? Aa bail mujhey maar ?
You are forgetting that market was pretty much same, and usuary was controlled by market trends.
Now my company was highly in debt with high interest loans, even after interest rate droped to floor, the loans were still paid with those exuberant interest rates.
Despite getting handsome profits, company was not able to register net profit due to heavy financial( interest ) charges.
So going as per your concept, I will call this ^^ situation as loan sharking. Where the company is not able to get out of trap of interest (usury) and bank is taking undue advantage out of situation.
So, a year ago the company issued TFCs offering the prevelant interest so to pay off high interest loans and pay-off these low interest rates in some years time.
Sadly, there is no complete way out as system is based on interest. Oneway or the other you have to pay it somewhere somehow...
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
even in the days of bayaaj, there was little market liquidity, very little disintermediation and all the leverage was with the lendee. the person using the system had little choice as to the places he could go to for the capital. compare this to today.
You are telling me raising debt is equal to usury? Your company is in trouble not because of interest but because of poor management. Debt is also currency, it allows your corporation to invest in things like code monkeys to devlop new products, open new markets etc. Why didn't they do an equity round? Most companies that raise debt also leverage convertible notes in the event the interest becomes too onerous, the lenders can convert their holding into equity. I would recommend you leave your company asap, the management should be fired, and it should be shut down.
the above is not loan sharking.... your company had the option to pare down, close shop, file for bankruptsy...due to poor managemetn not interest. :)
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
My company was in trouble not because of poor management but because of parasite companies, now the situation is quite stable 
but your suggestion to shut down the business run away is not even at par with banyaa mentality, who actually have more trust in borower’s abilities to pay-off the loan * baap mar gaya tu kia, beta hai na qarza chukaney ke leye * :k:
So as I am not in position, to change any thing, so makhi pe makhi hi maroonga :bukbuk:
Now, I read some days ago that in Pakistan, some big banks are in dilemma that they were running out of options to offer more incentives to depositors (as interest rates are low) but on the other hand if the same depositors want to invest the same money in shares of that same bank they will get way better returns and better prospects.
So, there are alway more lucrative options in case if someone want to avoid interest. Stock trading is perfectly Islamic, as the person is involved in business and sharing the profit and loss of that company.
On the other hand in interest, there is no chance of loss, the money is earning money for you… while you sit back and relax :sleep:
Remembering the sweet and bitter relationship with IMF, let me quote how The Great Monetory Fund helps in reducing poverty around the world…
Quote–
Last year alone, developing countries paid $270 billion in debt service - that’s $60 for every man, woman and child. In fact for every [pounds]1 given in aid, the industrialised countries received [pounds]9 back in debt service. So who is giving aid to whom?
Debt repayment is increasing absolute poverty in poor countries. The very things that can help raise people’s quality of life - education, health care and employment - are being ravaged by governments struggling to meet crippling repayments to western financial institutions. Under IMF and World Bank pressure, they are forced further to cut spending on social services in return for more aid that will take them even deeper into debt.
–unquote
Loan sharking ??? It is a concept of past !
Ask people of developing world. How much caring and compassionate the people at World bank, IMF are !