Re: Quranic Perspective on Usury
Matsui: I have credit cards too but I do not pay interest on them. What's the big deal there. I never look towards people to support my views as long as I know my views are based on Quran & Sunnah.
Re: Quranic Perspective on Usury
^
nahin beta, i dont have a credit card....
and here in our country Islamic Banking is really a success story....
and debit cards r available....
most ppl here live in america and think they have an excuse to deal in interest....
they r wrong though....
many think they can eat haraam because halal is not readily available, they r wrong too....
doesnt mean that Islam allows such things....
but what wud a non-muslim like u know who never wishes to learn but jumps around in his dhoti just to make fun of others....
Re: Quranic Perspective on Usury
hahah Islamic banking..talk about putting lipstick on a pig and calling it Heather Locklear. hahahahahah... I only make fun of you in my Ralph PJ's man. have a heart.. :(
One guy was trying to explain to me the concept of loans in Islamic bank, the only thing he could descibe was a fixed interest loan. But he called it something stupid. call it what you want...it is still itnerest. Even ISlamic banks have to deal with a global markets, the deal in interest. :)
Re: Quranic Perspective on Usury
^
if i run a supermarket, and a customer comes there who earns his money thru interest or thru stealing or thru prostitution or selling alcohol, it doesnt mean i dont sell him anything....
his illegal way of earning does not make my earning illegal too....
my concern is only that between me and him, the transcation shud not be illegal (i.e. as defined by Shariah)....
riba and trade r very similar and hence Allah mentioned it in Quran that ppl say riba is like trade....
needs a clever person to distinguish....
let me quote something for u, hoping u wud try to understand....
[quote]
To explain my point of view about this issue, let me use a good analogy: the issue of "Islamic marriage".
There are no obstacles that prevent Muslims in North America from having an Islamic marriage, a contract that adheres to the legal requirements of the state as well as the Islamic legal requirements. In certain respects, "a marriage is a marriage'", but in other respects, to abide by all the requirements of the Islamic marriage contract, the Muslim man and woman need to do some extra work. Local Islamic centers, as well as continent wide organizations like ISNA, provide information and contract forms to help potential Muslim families abide by both sets of laws (e.g. providing local religious "marriage services", providing forms for an "Islamic will" to ensure abidance by Islamic inheritance laws, etc.).
Similarly, the notion that "a marriage is a marriage" may be applied in the realm of finance, e.g. "a lease is a lease". In this domain also, the Muslim needs to ensure that the contract he signs with the lessor or lessee agrees with the conditions of the lease contract (aqd al 'ijarah oraqd al 'ijdr) in Islamic jurisprudence. Those conditions are put in place to ensure that the contract would not contain elements of Riba or Gharar, which are forbidden in Islam.
[/quote]
Re: Quranic Perspective on Usury
Please** keep the discussion on track. **
Matsui - Can you give some examples of usury( your version) present in mainstream financial sector now ?
Re: Quranic Perspective on Usury
I think there were only few replies that went off topic. You should have read all the replies instead of the last ones 
All others were along the lines of interest vs Riba & if Riba is usury or interest or both or if interest is usury.
thanks for understanding and yeah thanks for the warning in PM 
that was on the right track indeed.
Re: Quranic Perspective on Usury
The concept of usury is really not prevalent because the lender and lendee agree to terms around frameworks that are regulated by humans. Another reason why this doesn’t happen in the main stream financial systems is the concept of choice for both th elender and lendee. Free flow of capital across regions and disintermediation ala Lendingtree.com and other vehicles level the playing field. In 7th century arabia, capital was concentrated among a few and they conrolled the terms..the concept of equity wasn’t prevalent. If you wanted to borrow money to start a business, you would have to go to the one guy in town who had the cash adn usury was his main vehicle for profiteering. I threw the equity piece in there so that we can extend the argument to building upside via risk.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
ATT : STOP STOP -- IMPORTANT TMPORTANT -- PLZ READ
Though I have different opinion in regards to Usury (Ribaa) then Anwaar Qureshi & armughal. I have putting some material to show what really is “The Evil of Usury”. Might be interesting for all of you.
Trying to keep it simple. If you see its lengthy – my apologies – but it’s a worth reading it. However some knowledge of banking system is the prerequisite to this document.
Anwaar Qureshi and armughal : Save this article somewhere safe place – will be helpful.
Matsui: Please spend some time reading this document. See where we are standing. It not a problem as per one religion it’s the whole humanity issue. Thanks
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
(START)
The Evil of Usury
*"The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender" -- Proverbs 22:7 *
Alas, the above is only too true today as it was when formulated. The rich rules over the poor -- an ages long fact. The borrower is servant to the lender -- and what is the method used by the lender: the insidious system of usury. The whole case against usury is too large to cover in the space of an article so the following is a concise and brief explanation of the workings of this fraudulent system.
For the many readers who are aware of these little-known facts, the following will serve as a timely reminder and hopefully, an incitement, to inform the many innocents who are daily losing their farms, houses and businesses as a result of this unjust system. Even more urgent is the need to educate the young before they embark on a future relationship with their bank or financial institution. There is no turning back once those loan papers have been signed: you are trapped right up till the day you pay it off.
For the readers who have never been fortunate to know the following, they may well be shocked and even angry. They will be angry at the banks, the Establishment that permits such a swindle, and in fact, thrives off such a swindle.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
Money
"For the love of money is the root of all evil" -- II Timothy 6:10
"The most sinister and anti-social feature about bank-deposit money is that it has no existence. The banks owe the public for a total amount of money which does not exist. In buying and selling, implemented by cheque transactions, there is a mere change in the party to the whom the money is owed by the banks. As the one depositor's account is debited, the other is credited and the banks can go on owing for it all the time.
**"The whole profit of the issuance of money has provided the capital of the great banking business as it exists today. Starting with nothing whatever of their own, they have got the whole world into their debt irredeemably, by a trick.
"This money comes into existence every time the banks 'lend' and disappears every time the debt is repaid to them. So that if industry tries to repay, the money of the nation disappears. This is what makes prosperity so 'dangerous' as it destroys money just when it is most needed and precipitates a slump.
"There is nothing left now for us but to get ever deeper and deeper into debt to the banking system in order to provide the increasing amounts of money the nation requires for its expansion and growth. An honest money system is the only alternative." -- Frederick Soddy, M.A., F.R.S., Nobel Prize Winner, 1921.**
As the above makes clear, banks are able to manipulate "money" using various methods like the debiting of one account and the crediting of another, and so on, thus "balancing" the accounts. Banks also "create" money in more ways than one, through a trick that will be looked at later on.
Economists use the term "create" when observing the process by which money comes into being. Thus, creation means making something that did not exist before.
A sawmill makes boards, workers build houses from timber, a glass-blower makes fancy glass ornaments. In these examples, they did not "create", but converted already existing materials into a more usable, and thus more valuable form.
However, money "creation" is somewhat different. Here, and here alone, man "creates" something out of nothing. Pieces of worthless paper are printed, given various denominational values, which can be used to purchase, for example, a glass ornament. Its value (of the money, or piece of paper) has been "created" literally out of thin air.
As we can see from the above, manufacturing money is dirt cheap, and whoever does the "creating" and issuing stands to make impressive profits.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
The Supply of Money
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes its laws" -- Attributed to Mayer Amschel (who later changed his surname to Rothschild and founded the largest financial dynasty ever to exist in its influence and power).
The proper use, distribution and supply of money is of vital importance to the efficient running of society. Modern societies are completely reliant on an adequate supply of money.
Without money, industry would grind to a halt, farms would become mere self-sustaining units, surplus food would disappear, jobs requiring one or more workers would remain unfinished, transport of all goods would cease, hungry populations would kill and steal to stay alive, and government would collapse leading to complete anarchy. It is not hard to imagine the catastrophic conditions created if money was to completely vanish.
Money remains the life-blood of society; money flows throughout society just as vital nutrients flow throughout the body, giving sustained growth, development and vitality.
Money is the method by which goods and services are exchanged; remove money or hamper supply and the results will be disastrous. We need only recall Australia's Great Depression of the 1930's.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
Bankers Depression of the 1930's
Australians all know about the Great Depression and the extremely hard times it brought about; but what of its causes?
In 1930, Australia did not lack industrial capacity, fertile farmland, or skilled, industrious and willing workers, residing in both the city and country. Already, extensive systems of reasonably efficient transport and communications were in place. War had not ravaged the cities or countryside, nor had famine devastated the land and its population. The one thing that industry and commerce lacked was a sufficient supply of money.
In the early 1930s, Bankers, who were the only source of new money or credit, deliberately refused loans to industry, commerce and agriculture. However, payment on outstanding loans was demanded, which led to a rapid decrease in the circulation of real money.
This caused a complete standstill; jobs could not be done, goods and services could not be purchased. This ploy by the greedy Bankers placed Australia in the Great Depression of the 1930s, and moreover, placed extensive amounts of businesses, private dwellings and farms in the hands of these same Bankers.
The people, not understanding the system, were in a helpless position, and were cruelly robbed of their hard-earned savings and property; they were told things like "times are hard", "money is short", "everyone is suffering." These same statements come to mind when recalling them being made during Australia's recent so-called "recession".
This was "a 'recession' we had to have," the politicians proclaimed; and one I'm sure the banks loved to have. If you should have the opportunity, a check on how the banks faired during the so-called "recession" will reveal sustained and increased profits, with an abnormal increase in acquired property assets!
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
Money for Peace? No! Money for War? Yes!
"The Rothschilds can start or prevent wars. Their word could make or break empires" -- Chicago Evening American, December 3, 1923.
World War II ended the Great Depression. Overnight, the same Bankers who had no money for housing, food and clothing, suddenly had millions to lend for Army barracks, uniforms, rations and weaponry.
This was a remarkable reversal in policy by the Bankers. They simply began pumping millions upon millions of dollars back into the economy when war was imminent. The Great Depression ended because of the war!
There will be some who believe that a war will lead to a "boom economy" because it leads to a massive increase in activity and production. This fallacy is easily exposed: If we were able to manufacture millions of tonnes of war equipment, dump it in the desert and blow it up, would we therefore have a "boom economy"?
On the contrary, wars create huge debts to the Bankers who are able to expand the money supply and lend more money out. In the case of a war, the victor nation would have to seize the assets of the defeated nation, occupy its place in the international trade system, and thus, sometime in the future, be able to pay back all its debts (including interest) to the Bankers who made the war possible in the first place. Big banks, that have traditionally been owned exclusively by a few collaborating families, can change the course of history and have done so for much of this century.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
^ You have got to be kidding me! No wonder the per capita GDP of muslim countries, even with the OIL as their saving grace is anemic at best.
A great example of this is the quote from above
"A sawmill makes boards, workers build houses from timber, a glass-blower makes fancy glass ornaments. In these examples, they did not "create", but converted already existing materials into a more usable, and thus more valuable form."
Tell me slick...what role does technology innovation play in the creation of goods and services. When automation leads to creatin of goods and services, humans are left standing on the sidelines..you need to attach derivative value on these automated creations and trust me...more and more atumation is on the way. and have the ability to leverage that..Trading and value assigning currecy as the instrunment helps you do that. Otherwise we are all standing around with the thumb up our asses waiting for someone to feed us, clothe us, educate us, entertain us..etc. While that might be want the muslim world wants..5/6th of humanity is moving forward.
You should tell all these Pakistani guppies to stop stuyding computer sciences and engineering because that is allowing good manufacturing and service functions to be automated and replaced. See what they say...
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
Usury
"Who goeth a borrowing goeth a sorrowing" -- Benjamin Franklin.
The main method through which new money (not true, real money, but "credit"*representing a debt) can go into circulation in Australia is when it is borrowed from Bankers. When large amounts of money are borrowed and utilised within society, an illusion of prosperity appears. Thus, when *"credit" is loaned out to borrowers, more wealth circulates within society giving the outward appearance of abundance. Of course when it comes to paying that money back, there is the question of usury or interest. As "credit" is borrowed out, interest accumulates at ever-increasing rates as we will soon see.
The transaction of borrowing money proceeds as thus:
The applicant applies to borrow X amount of dollars from a Banker. The Banker, by the stroke of his pen, issues the applicant the principal (the amount borrowed), i.e. "creates" the borrowed amount. This amount does not come from individual bank accounts. The Banker lends the applicant nothing tangible (i.e. gold, silver, paper or ink) on credit, they lend the applicant intangible CREDIT on credit!
Thus, the problem of limited supply is circumvented; the Bankers are lending noTHING which means they can go on lending forever. A highly profitable venture indeed.
To conceal the fraud of lending nothing, Bankers charge interest, whereby borrowers (of nothing) agree to return more imaginary "credit" than they borrowed.
The borrower whose original loan consisted of principal only, must also pay an extra amount that the Banker specifies (interest). Therefore, the new money never equals the new debt added. The amounts needed to pay the interest on the original loan is not "created", and therefore does not exist!
Under this insidious system, the new debt will always be larger than the new money; as more money is needed to pay back interest, less money becomes available. This whole system is particularly unjust when one realises that he/she is repaying intangible principle ("created" by the bank) as well as interest (which is conceived from the "created" principal!)
The above can be illustrated by the following:
The applicant borrows $60,000 to purchase a home, farm or business, and the Bank has the borrower agree to pay back the loan PLUS interest. At just 14%, the borrower must repay $710.92 per month for 30 years. The Bank obtains its "mortgage" over the property and the borrower receives a $60,000 cheque from the Bank which is credited to his/her bank account. The borrower then writes cheques to the builder, contractors, other institutions etc. These persons in turn write cheques. Some $60,000 of new cheque-book money has been added to the money supply.
However, the flaw with this usury system is this: the only new money created and injected into circulation is the principal of $60,000. The money required to pay the interest was NOT created and was not put into circulation.
In the above case, the borrower must earn and take out of circulation $255,931, almost $200,000 more than he put into circulation when he borrowed the original $60,000. Every new loan, big or small, puts this same process into operation. The borrower adds a small amount of money to the total supply of money and deducts more than quadruple the original sum (as in above example) to meet his "obligations".
Another example given below illustrates the year by year progression of a loan for $100,000 at 20% interest for 15 years. Take note that the borrower has repaid the principle after five years of payments! The borrower continues to pay the bank a total of $216,134 over the next ten years. (Table)
The inevitable outcome of this system is the diminishment of money in circulation to the point where a depression will be imminent. Money increasingly disappears into the Bankers coffers leaving less and less in circulation. Debtors struggle against each other, vying for new loans which will mean more "created" money and more interest. The banker accrues vast sums of real money and credit that he will gamble on the stockmarket, etc. The Banker will also accumulate all types of property assets, snatched from bankrupt farmers, businessmen etc.
The Banker who produces nothing of value, slowly, then more rapidly, gains a death grip over the land, buildings and labour of future generations. The borrowers have become the servants of the lenders and have placed themselves on the economic treadmill of debt.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
Banks Always Prosper -- Through the Bad and Good Times
Though millions of financial transactions are carried out every year, very little money actually changes hands. 95% of all "cash" transactions are done by cheque. The Banker is perfectly safe in "creating" the so-called "loan" by writing the cheque or deposit slip, not against real money, but against your promise to pay it back! The cost to the banker is stationary and wages.
The Greatest Swindle Ever!
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it all back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine disappear, and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits" -- Sir Josiah Stamp (President of the Bank of England in the 1920s, the second richest man in Britain).
Hidden under a veneer of respectability, integrity and competitiveness, the Banker awaits his next unsuspecting victim. The Banker is partaking in the biggest swindle of all time, and he knows it. The Banker's wealth, power and influence extends the world.
We are ruled by a capitalist Bank-owned Mammon that has usurped the mantle of government, and set about to pauperise and control the people. It is now a centralised power-hungry apparatus which promotes war, steals the people's wealth and uses every type of propaganda to keep its position.
The Banker realises that an under-educated, ignorant and confused population is easier to subvert than a healthy and intelligent people. The ruling Establishment therefore promotes all manner of degeneracy, decadence and corruption including drug use, sexual perversion and trivialities.
Through the use of high technologies, the Banker and his other plutocratic cohorts will have a most efficient and complete control over a nations finance and thus increased powers to amass even more wealth through their evil use of usury.
The future will give way to an even larger increase in financial transfers done not only by cheque but by computer transfers that the consumer/borrower will execute from ATMs (Automatic Teller Machines) and home computers. When 100% of all transactions are processed in this manner, the cashless society will have been reached -- a Banker's paradise. The cashless society will be the ultimate instrument in social control; no more tax evasion, no more "extra money on the side", no existence outside the system.
So what can we do about this incredible rip-off? We can warn as many people as possible about this deceitful system and we can tell them not to participate AT ALL. The evil that lurks behind usury must not under any circumstance be supported or encouraged. When enough people realise this iniquity they will develop alternative methods of raising funds. They will come together in new community structures; independent from the old, decrepit worn-out Establishment.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
For the love of money is the root of all evil; and the evil that exists at the base of materialistic societies will one day be rooted out and forever destroyed.
"Those who swallow down usury cannot arise except as one whom Satan has prostrated by his touch does rise. That is because they say, trading is only like usury; and Allah has allowed trading and forbidden usury. To whomsoever then the admonition has come from his Lord, then he desists, he shall have what is already passed, and his affairs is in the hands of Allah; and whoever returns to it -- these are the inmates of the fire; they shall abide in it. . ." -- From the Qur'an, Surah Al-Baqarah.
The following are extracts from Rev. Charles E. Coughlin's famous book Money! Questions and Answers. The title is self-explanatory as to the easy-to-read format of this wonderful book. The book is available from N.D.I.N.S, GPO Box 3126FF, Melbourne, 3001 for A$16 plus A$2 postage and handling.
When an individual borrows money from a bank, does the banker lend him money that other private individuals have brought to the bank?
No. That is what the bankers would like to have you believe, but it is not true.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
(still continue ...)
By the following manufacturing process:
- - John Jones, a business man, needs $10,000. He goes to the bank and explains the nature of the busi ness he proposes to conduct. He takes to the bank certified figures indicating the value of his business, factory, farm, home, etc. If the banker is satisfied with the amount of real wealth to be pledged, he gives John Jones a note to sign. This note is a mortgage upon the wealth John Jones owns, and gives the banker legal power to confiscate the wealth, if John Jones does not pay at a specified time the number of dollars he is borrowing. The banker then manufactures the money on his ledgers.
How does he do this?
- - When the banker accepts John Jones' note, on the asset side of the ledger he writes: Assets Liabilities Loans and Discounts...............$10,000 On the liability side he writes: Deposits.......................................10,000 At that instant, there is $10,000 more money in existence and available for use than before the banker made these entries.
What does John Jones do with this bookkeeping money?
- - He goes back to his factory with a bank book, not with actual currency, showing a deposit to his account of $10,000.
What is the exact nature of the item on bank balance sheets called "Deposits"?
- - The "Deposits" are actually and legally nothing but liabilities of the bank. They are the money the bank owes, not what it has. A bank deposit is actually a bank's promise, nothing more.
What can John Jones do with this newly created deposit?
- - He can and does write cheques against this deposit to pay labourers, buy raw materials, and pay general overhead, incident to carrying on the manufacture and distribution of wealth.
How is this possible?
- - Other banks are doing the same thing at the same time. A bank against which cheques are drawn receives the proceeds of similarly manufactured deposits in other banks. Each bank receives cheques drawn on other banks which offset those drawn against it. They all have to work together. If there were only one bank the fraud would be soon discovered.
Is this process honest where John Jones pledges real wealth to secure the banker's fictitious bookkeeping money?
- - No, because it enables the banker to lend purchasing power (money) which costs him nothing but the general overhead of running a bank, and forces John Jones...to pay interest for the existence of bankers' bookkeeping money, with which 95% of...business is transacted.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
When the banker manufactured $10,000 and loaned it to John Jones, who began to write cheques, exchanging that bookkeeping money for wealth and services, what happened to the price levels?
- They were increased, because there was $10,000 more money in existence than there was prior to John Jones' loan. This new money came into existence, however, without a corresponding increase in the volume of goods and services, thus decreasing the unit value of money already outstanding. The value of outstanding money went down, which meant that the price level went up, i.e., the same amount of goods would then command more money. This principle is well recognised by all economists.
- For example, if there are only $10,000 in existence in the egg market and only 10,000 eggs to be had we will say that each egg is worth $1.00. Now supposing that there are $20,000 in existence in the egg market and still only 10,000 eggs to be had. Each egg becomes worth $2.00. It is the old law of supply and demand. The double amount of money represents the demand. But the same quantity of eggs represents the supply. The egg merchants desirous of getting as much as they possibly can per egg will exhaust the supply of egg money.
When John Jones, the business man, is forced to pay his loan at the bank, what happens to the volume of money in the nation?
- - It is reduced by the number of dollars that John Jones pays.
What happens when a large number of business men are forced to pay their loans?
- - A large volume of the necessary medium of exchange is extinguished, i.e., cancelled out of existence.
What is a genuine loan?
- - In making a genuine loan the lender advances real money which represents a transfer of real purchasing power. Thus, if "A" earns $1000 working at the production and distribution of wealth, he may exchange that $1000 for wealth, or he may abstain from using or possessing wealth and lend his $1000 to another. If he lends his $1000 so acquired, he is a party to the making of a genuine loan.
Re: Quranic/prophetic Perspective on Usury
Untrue again...let me tell you how it works.
You borrow from your bank for a house. Bank charges a fee for doing the transaction, cost of goods let's say. Th ebank also charges 10% interest (why?) The bank charges interest because of the value of money, the very limited supply that you mention creates value ot this currency, like a limited supply of eggs would do to eggs and limited supply of cows would do to cows. The 10% includes risk the bank is incurring for lending you the money...and th opportunity cost for lending or investing it in something else that can give the bank their minimum expected return. The above article also discounts depreciation. After 30 yrs the value of a currency is less than what it was on a nominal basis when lent, because of inflation. No where is this accounted for inteh model presented above.
Another fallacy in the article above is the concept that the bank didn't create something. It created an arbitrage opportunity from Pooling these assets and then lending and or paying out interest to shareholders and lenders to the bank itself. this is not also accounted for...
Can you give a link where the article came from? I am think either..khilafah.com and/or karlmarx.com