Khadija herself was of Hanafi school of thought, and she inspired Muhammad.
LOL. Flux capacitor pl0x?
Peace burqaposhx
Please pray that Allah (SWT) increases me in knowledge and indeed to be more accurate in expression.
Abu Jahl was indeed the mouthpiece for those idol worshippers from amongst the majority of the Qura'ish. He made the statement and it was that aspect to which I replied. It seems everything else I have written remains to be contested by you. So I hope we are at an understanding at least you know where I am coming from.
Thank you also.
There is no record (not at least that I have seen) that says Abu Jahil was "Idol worshipper".
Many of these big time leaders of Makkah were essentially businessmen, who made lots and lots of money by trading with everyone from Ibrahimi followers all the way to idol worshipper or pagans.
The problem with Abu Jahil was that he wanted to follow "Sharia" as established by his forefathers.
And Mohammed pbuh was by reciting Quran, \ challenging the "very notion" that Shariah /madhab followed in the name of Ibrahimi deen. He in fact declared that the rituals and Sharia followed by Kuffar has in fact become the victim of "interpretation" by self-appointed religious scholars.
If you want to understand, then read how Makkans even before Mohammed pbuh used to perform "Hujj" and follow "religiously" the edicts dealing with "sacred months" such as Rmadhan, Zelhujj etc. They used to fast and pray too
and Hujj and respect of sacred months was according to "Ibrahimi deen" and it will be truly sad and factually incorrect, that you call these practices as "idol worshipping".
Do you even know that
-------- Abu Jahil was not making sajda in front of an idol. BECAUSE the same Abu Jahil was praying in Kaaba and thus making sujda to Kaaba.
(You have to show me some rawayat that says Abu Jahil did not or refused to make sajda towards Kaba.
The real problem was that
--------- Abu Jahil and his cronies had established a Sharia that was unjust and cruel to people, because it had come down to rituals and lost the true soul of Allah swt message. Very much similar to the leaders of TTP and other Taliban.
And Mohammed pbuh
--- brought the true soul of Allah swt' message back to the people
--- and clearly rejected the extremists and abusers of religion.
This was not too different from what Hazrat Eesah pbuh brought to his Jewish followers. Remember Hazrat Eesah himself was jewish by birth, and other jews were not idol worshippers. The main problem pointed out by Hazrat Eesah was that Jewish religious scholars had hijacked the religion in the name of "Shariah".
Similarly Quraish and other Makkans too had hijacked the Ibrahimi deen in the name of their sharia and Mohammed pbuh liberated us from that yoke (too bad in 21st century we have again put on the same old Sharia yoke).
Coming back to the topic!
if you read in detail, you will find that Abu Jahil was stuck with his Sharia and he was worried more about making money from the "religious business" instead of worrying about the true meaning of the words of Allah swt.
Thus he was hardly an "idol worshipper" in true sense,
In fact he was very much similar to many Muslim leaders / scholars of today who are abusing our beautiful religion in the name of Sharia and other worldly purposes.
^ Well said! Monotheism had been around for a long time before Muhammad contributed his own knowledge to it. Khadija herself was of Hanafi school of thought, and she inspired Muhammad. Khadija's own family was Christian ( I think).
face to the palm.
There is no record (not at least that I have seen) that says Abu Jahil was "Idol worshipper".
Many of these big time leaders of Makkah were essentially businessmen, who made lots and lots of money by trading with everyone from Ibrahimi followers all the way to idol worshipper or pagans.
The problem with Abu Jahil was that he wanted to follow "Sharia" as established by his forefathers.
And Mohammed pbuh was by reciting Quran, \ challenging the "very notion" that Shariah /madhab followed in the name of Ibrahimi deen. He in fact declared that the rituals and Sharia followed by Kuffar has in fact become the victim of "interpretation" by self-appointed religious scholars.
If you want to understand, then read how Makkans even before Mohammed pbuh used to perform "Hujj" and follow "religiously" the edicts dealing with "sacred months" such as Rmadhan, Zelhujj etc. They used to fast and pray too
and Hujj and respect of sacred months was according to "Ibrahimi deen" and it will be truly sad and factually incorrect, that you call these practices as "idol worshipping".
Do you even know that
-------- Abu Jahil was not making sajda in front of an idol. BECAUSE the same Abu Jahil was praying in Kaaba and thus making sujda to Kaaba.
(You have to show me some rawayat that says Abu Jahil did not or refused to make sajda towards Kaba.
The real problem was that
--------- Abu Jahil and his cronies had established a Sharia that was unjust and cruel to people, because it had come down to rituals and lost the true soul of Allah swt message. Very much similar to the leaders of TTP and other Taliban.
And Mohammed pbuh
--- brought the true soul of Allah swt' message back to the people --- and clearly rejected the extremists and abusers of religion.
This was not too different from what Hazrat Eesah pbuh brought to his Jewish followers. Remember Hazrat Eesah himself was jewish by birth, and other jews were not idol worshippers. The main problem pointed out by Hazrat Eesah was that Jewish religious scholars had hijacked the religion in the name of "Shariah".
Similarly Quraish and other Makkans too had hijacked the Ibrahimi deen in the name of their sharia and Mohammed pbuh liberated us from that yoke (too bad in 21st century we have again put on the same old Sharia yoke).
Coming back to the topic!
if you read in detail, you will find that Abu Jahil was stuck with his Sharia and he was worried more about making money from the "religious business" instead of worrying about the true meaning of the words of Allah swt.
Thus he was hardly an "idol worshipper" in true sense,
In fact he was very much similar to many Muslim leaders / scholars of today who are abusing our beautiful religion in the name of Sharia and other worldly purposes.
Peace burqaposhx
This is bordering funny ... where are you getting this stuff from?
Need I explain in intricate detail?
Look hadith from Sahih Muslim (not that you will accept hadith, but then how else will you even know Abu Jahl's real name?)
Bk 1, Number 0036:
It is reported by Sa'id b. Musayyib who narrated it on the authority of his father (Musayyib b. Hazm) that when Abu Talib was about to die, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) came to him and found with him Abu Jahl ('Amr b. Hisham) and 'Abdullah b. Abi Umayya ibn al-Mughirah. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: My uncle, you just make a profession that there is no god but Allah, and I will bear testimony before Allah (of your being a believer), Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah b. Abi Umayya addressing him said: Abu Talib, would you abandon the religion of 'Abdul-Muttalib? The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) constantly requested him (to accept his offer), and (on the other hand) was repeated the same statement (of Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah b. Abi Umayya) till Abu Talib gave his final decision and be stuck to the religion of 'Abdul-Muttalib and refused to profess that there is no god but Allah. Upon this the Messenger of Allah remarked: By Allah, I will persistently beg pardon for you till I am forbidden to do so (by God), It was then that Allah, the Magnificent and the Glorious, revealed this verse:
" It is not meet for the Prophet and for those who believe that they should beg pardon for the polytheists, even though they were their kith and kin, after it had been made known to them that they were the denizens of Hell" (ix. 113) And it was said to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him): " Verily thou canst not guide to the right path whom thou lovest. And it is Allah Who guideth whom He will, and He knoweth best who are the guided" (xxviii, 56).
Read the two statements in red within this hadith ... Is Abu Jahl the mouthpiece for mushrikoon or not?
All this "shari'ah" stuff you are loathingly talking about is not the right terms to use with the blind following of idol worship which was bolted on to the belief of the followers of Ibrahim (AS).
The Mushrikoon of Qur'aish believed in Allah (SWT) but set-up partners to Him.
The original passage posted by you on the matter of what Allah (SWT) had given is my very point. What came from Muhammad (SAW) and the opinion of Muhammad (SAW) is what counts and by letting everyone interpret to their own understanding in each era leads to the gradual drifting away from orthodox understandings.
When they used to argue following their fathers traditions it was a fake argument because somewhere down the line their forefathers used their own understandings and started to worship idols. Islam protects us from that end with the sciences of hadith.
Shari'ah is a term which has nothing to do with this discussion. Hadith is what we are talking about here. Follow what you like bro I don't mind but when you talk about Abu Jahl know that he represented the worst type of kafir - enemy of Muhammad (SAW) who wanted him killed and he would side with the enemies of Islam who were the majority mushrikoon.
Again I re-iterate when he refered to his forefathers he meant the practices of shirk and if you don't believe me then read what you wrote again:
Don't tell us that we the Quraish should be in direct conneciton with Allah swt.
So to you this is talking about scholars and hadith? To me this is talking about the lesser idols in the kabah who were believed by the pagans of Arabia would intercede to Allah (SWT) on their behalf. That they believed those idols deserved worship and would as a result be worshipped moreso.
Muslim worship Allah (SWT) but follow Muhammad (SAW) ... how can we do so without hadith in its proper place?
Re: Quran and sunnah is enough for us to be successful
Abu Jehel (Umer Bin Hisham) was an idol worshiper and not by any stretch followed Deen-e-Ibrahimi nor he made any 'shariah'. Not to confuse the word deliberately, one should not use this word for his beliefs.
Peace burqaposhx
...... Bk 1, Number 0036:
It is reported by Sa'id b. Musayyib who narrated it on the authority of his father (Musayyib b. Hazm) that when Abu Talib was about to die, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) came to him and found with him Abu Jahl ('Amr b. Hisham) and 'Abdullah b. Abi Umayya ibn al-Mughirah. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: My uncle, you just make a profession that there is no god but Allah, and I will bear testimony before Allah (of your being a believer), Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah b. Abi Umayya addressing him said: Abu Talib, would you abandon the religion of 'Abdul-Muttalib? ...
Peace psyah
I think you are stretching this hadis waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond its intention.
a) It doesn't prove that Hazrat Abu Talib died as an "idol worshipper". Astaghfirullah.
b) The faith of Mohammed pbhu's grandpa was not "idol worshipping" either.
These were men of their faith, who did hujj, and fasted, and said prayers.
Their religious practices "however" were corrupted because they had all set up their own imams and scholars who interpreted deen-e-ibrahimi,
And thus
These scholars and imams became the self proclaimed "right hands of Allah", and there in lies the concept of shirk.
Otherwise they all bowed to Kaba just like we do till today. because this practice goes back the Ibrahim pbuh.
So you should be very careful when you put your twist to ahadees and then quote Quraric ayat out of context and mismatch them with ahadis.
Quran's ayah is GENERAL and not linked to Abu Talib pbuh.
How could you dare call Hazrat Abu Talib and Hazrat ibn Mutlib as an "Idol worshippers".
Hazrat Abu Talib is one of the major elders of Quraish who stuck to the cause of Islam and physical protection of Mohammed pbuh.
Do you think an idol worshiper would ever do that?
Shame on you.
This is precisely why one should not stick to Imams and scholars who spread hatred for the ones near and deal to Mohammed pbuh.
Re: Quran and sunnah is enough for us to be successful
You guys are going way beyond the topic.
Burqa, it would be nice if you provided authentic sources for your assertions.
Peace psyah
I think you are stretching this hadis waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond its intention.
a) It doesn't prove that Hazrat Abu Talib died as an "idol worshipper". Astaghfirullah.
b) The faith of Mohammed pbhu's grandpa was not "idol worshipping" either.
These were men of their faith, who did hujj, and fasted, and said prayers.
Their religious practices "however" were corrupted because they had all set up their own imams and scholars who interpreted deen-e-ibrahimi,
And thus
These scholars and imams became the self proclaimed "right hands of Allah", and there in lies the concept of shirk.
Otherwise they all bowed to Kaba just like we do till today. because this practice goes back the Ibrahim pbuh.
So you should be very careful when you put your twist to ahadees and then quote Quraric ayat out of context and mismatch them with ahadis.
Quran's ayah is GENERAL and not linked to Abu Talib pbuh.
How could you dare call Hazrat Abu Talib and Hazrat ibn Mutlib as an "Idol worshippers".
Hazrat Abu Talib is one of the major elders of Quraish who stuck to the cause of Islam and physical protection of Mohammed pbuh.
Do you think an idol worshiper would ever do that?
Shame on you.
This is precisely why one should not stick to Imams and scholars who spread hatred for the ones near and deal to Mohammed pbuh.
Peace burqaposhx
I am not talking about Abu Talib nor Abdul Muttalib ... It is not my belief that either of them are like in any way similar to Abu Jahl.
Abu Jahl was the one who twisted the truth and it was he who said the "religion of Abdul Muttalib" ... not that it was the religion of Abdul Muttalib, but that he meant polytheism was the religion prevalent during the time of Abdul Muttalib.
There are no imams and scholars of the time of Qur'aish that used to say their way is the way of Ibrahim (AS) ... there you are talking fallaciously.
Re: Quran and sunnah is enough for us to be successful
This discussion has gone on a tangent . Can moderators please split the discussion going on between burqa and Psyah and move it into a new thread. This discussion has nothing to do with my original question.
This discussion has gone on a tangent . Can moderators please split the discussion going on between burqa and Psyah and move it into a new thread. This discussion has nothing to do with my original question.
Peace Mirch bhai. It is relevant.
Quran and Sunnah are the basis on which one could try to understand and follow Islam.
However the two are not at the same level. Thus the steps to use Quran and Sunnah for guidance are to use your understanding based on:
1- Quran - Explore Quran for a given topic
1a-Use the FULL context from Quran for that topic.
However if you are still confused (even though you shouldn't be as Allah swt says that He has made Quran very easy to understand).
Then only then,
you search Sunnah for "additional" context for the topic at hand. that means a context that does not replace Quranic context but "adds" and "enhances" it.
And the very last step is that if you cannot use Quran first, Sunnah second, to fully comprehend the topic, then only then,
you go to your respective Imam and seek further guidance.
Thus it is a three step process.
As you saw the misuse/abuse of Sunnah first, and Quran second in brother Psyah's post above,
One can easily be mislead.
See how he quoted Sahih Muslim ..Bk 1, Number 0036 First, then he quoted Quran 9:113 in order to derive a meaning that was incorrect.
Hope that answers your question.
Peace.
Peace burqaposhx
It is not an abuse of Sunnah first and then Qur’an. That is what you are saying. I said, Qur’an comes first, but opinions regarding it should not be formulated until you have the full information and that includes going to Sunnah and Scholars. It is better for the lay person to go to scholars to learn their Deen rather than trying to understand the religion through the Qur’an.
Also, I didn’t quote the hadith and ayat separately … the hadith is mentioned with the ayat as part of the hadith. http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/001_smt.html
Also, it is incorrect to say that the Qur’an has been made easy to understand. It has been made easy to learn - i.e. memorise, but to understand it especially to any level of depth … it does not make the claim that this is easy.
Interesting choice of words. Did you know that Jewish Rabbis made the same claim about the Torah in order to justify their ‘other’ sources and their scholarly opinions too.
“…without the Talmud, we would NOT BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND passages in the Hebrew Bible” Rabbi Yehiel ben Joseph
" …anyone who does not study the Talmud CANNOT understand Scripture." Rabbi Yehiel ben Joseph
In Deuteronomy 4:1-2, Moses commanded the Jews not to uphold any other laws except the Torah, but they disobeyed him, and invented the Jewish Talmud that are made up of scholarly opinions of the Torah, and fabrications falsely attributed to Moses. Yet, they believe they are obeying GOD. Since, the Talmud is the reason the Jews went astray, and GOD’s system is unchangeable (as stated repeated in the Quran), why is it sudden okay to uphold scholarly opinions and fabrications falsely attributed to Muhammad? Exactly, it is NOT okay. It is an innovation. Hadith & Sunnah are the Islamic equivalent of the Jewish Talmud, and if the Talmud is condemned by GOD, and GOD’s system is unchangeable, than hadith & sunnah are wrong too.
Interesting choice of words. Did you know that Jewish Rabbis made the same claim about the Torah in order to justify their 'other' sources and their scholarly opinions too.
"...without the Talmud, we would NOT BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND passages in the Hebrew Bible" Rabbi Yehiel ben Joseph
" ...anyone who does not study the Talmud CANNOT understand Scripture." Rabbi Yehiel ben Joseph
In Deuteronomy 4:1-2, Moses commanded the Jews not to uphold any other laws except the Torah, but they disobeyed him, and invented the Jewish Talmud that are made up of scholarly opinions of the Torah, and fabrications falsely attributed to Moses. Yet, they believe they are obeying GOD. Since, the Talmud is the reason the Jews went astray, and GOD's system is unchangeable (as stated repeated in the Quran), why is it sudden okay to uphold scholarly opinions and fabrications falsely attributed to Muhammad? Exactly, it is NOT okay. It is an innovation. Hadith & Sunnah are the Islamic equivalent of the Jewish Talmud, and if the Talmud is condemned by GOD, and GOD's system is unchangeable, than hadith & sunnah are wrong too.
Did you know YOUR 1970's so-called messenger took out words of God from the Quran and called it a miracle?
Did you know YOUR 1970's so-called messenger took out words of God from the Quran and called it a miracle?
He did not remove any verses from the Quran. GOD's math miracle exposed two verses at the end of Sura 9 that have always been suspect of being false injections. The simple fact that there is no 'bismallah' above Sura 9 is a big red waving flag from GOD saying this Sura has been tampered with. Muslims have always suspected it. GOD confirmed it.
Although, nice attempt at trying to divert attention away from the fact that you do not follow the Quran, but the Islamic Talmud (Hadith & Sunnah).
peace
Interesting choice of words. Did you know that Jewish Rabbis made the same claim about the Torah in order to justify their 'other' sources and their scholarly opinions too.
"...without the Talmud, we would NOT BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND passages in the Hebrew Bible" Rabbi Yehiel ben Joseph
" ...anyone who does not study the Talmud CANNOT understand Scripture." Rabbi Yehiel ben Joseph
In Deuteronomy 4:1-2, Moses commanded the Jews not to uphold any other laws except the Torah, but they disobeyed him, and invented the Jewish Talmud that are made up of scholarly opinions of the Torah, and fabrications falsely attributed to Moses. Yet, they believe they are obeying GOD. Since, the Talmud is the reason the Jews went astray, and GOD's system is unchangeable (as stated repeated in the Quran), why is it sudden okay to uphold scholarly opinions and fabrications falsely attributed to Muhammad? Exactly, it is NOT okay. It is an innovation. Hadith & Sunnah are the Islamic equivalent of the Jewish Talmud, and if the Talmud is condemned by GOD, and GOD's system is unchangeable, than hadith & sunnah are wrong too.
Peace submitmj
You see in principle I agree wholeheartedly with the Jewish Rabbis. And I disagree with your insinuation.
The difference between the Muslims who uphold hadith and those Jews that are talked about in the Qur'an is that those Jews of yore tampered with the verses and changed the words. Here we are talking about extracting meaning from a basis.
The extraction of meaning is a matter of difference of opinion so long as the people who do it can support it from the most background evidence i.e. Qur'an, Sunnah and various rulings from history. However, we are not talking about the changing of texts here. That is forbidden and that is what was rebuked about the Jews.
Some extracted meanings will be better than others and we believe the one who draws an incorrect meaning using the correct techniques will be given 1 reward and the one who draws the correct meaning in the correct way gets 2 rewards.
So just by quoting a statement from a Jew does not make him wrong nor does it make us wrong. Not everything done by Jews is wrong. That would be a puritan worldview and a naive one.
On the other hand Dr RK has changed the texts and that is where rebuking is necessary!
Interesting choice of words. Did you know that Jewish Rabbis made the same claim about the Torah in order to justify their 'other' sources and their scholarly opinions too.
"...without the Talmud, we would NOT BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND passages in the Hebrew Bible" Rabbi Yehiel ben Joseph
" ...anyone who does not study the Talmud CANNOT understand Scripture." Rabbi Yehiel ben Joseph
In Deuteronomy 4:1-2, Moses commanded the Jews not to uphold any other laws except the Torah, but they disobeyed him, and invented the Jewish Talmud that are made up of scholarly opinions of the Torah, and fabrications falsely attributed to Moses. Yet, they believe they are obeying GOD. Since, the Talmud is the reason the Jews went astray, and GOD's system is unchangeable (as stated repeated in the Quran), why is it sudden okay to uphold scholarly opinions and fabrications falsely attributed to Muhammad? Exactly, it is NOT okay. It is an innovation. Hadith & Sunnah are the Islamic equivalent of the Jewish Talmud, and if the Talmud is condemned by GOD, and GOD's system is unchangeable, than hadith & sunnah are wrong too.
Not only that the earlier religions used "addendum" like Talmud, or Sunnah/fiqh/sharia,
They also brought in "Scholars" or the men who were the "so-called" right hands of God and Messenger.
These Men then "interpreted" the holy scriptures and developed "Sharia".
Thus we have Sunni-Sharia, Shia-Sharia, Catholic Sharia, non-catholic sharias, Jewish Sharia, Hindu Sharia and the list goes on.
These "scholars" or Muftis, or Maulanas, or the pundits, or the rabis, or the Ayatullahs etc. then said,
We are the sole representatives of Allah swt, and thus follow what WE tell you. You the people are too dumb to understand the holy books. We the exalted ones are the exceptions and thus we are the only ones who have brains capable enough to understand these "bery bery bery difficult" to understand scriptures.
Thus the right-hands of Allah, are these Maulans, and popes, and ayatullahs who are forcing all of us to commit shirk by adding humans next to Allah swt.
And
unfortunately brothers like psyah continue spreading the same old message that failed Jews, and Christians, and now failing Muslims.
And yet there are those who say "stay the course" even after centuries of whooping.
Not only that the earlier religions used "addendum" like Talmud, or Sunnah/fiqh/sharia,
They also brought in "Scholars" or the men who were the "so-called" right hands of God and Messenger.
These Men then "interpreted" the holy scriptures and developed "Sharia".
Thus we have Sunni-Sharia, Shia-Sharia, Catholic Sharia, non-catholic sharias, Jewish Sharia, Hindu Sharia and the list goes on.
These "scholars" or Muftis, or Maulanas, or the pundits, or the rabis, or the Ayatullahs etc. then said,
We are the sole representatives of Allah swt, and thus follow what WE tell you. You the people are too dumb to understand the holy books. We the exalted ones are the exceptions and thus we are the only ones who have brains capable enough to understand these "bery bery bery difficult" to understand scriptures.
Thus the right-hands of Allah, are these Maulans, and popes, and ayatullahs who are forcing all of us to commit shirk by adding humans next to Allah swt.
And
unfortunately brothers like psyah continue spreading the same old message that failed Jews, and Christians, and now failing Muslims.
And yet there are those who say "stay the course" even after centuries of whooping.
Peace burqaposhx
Heheh ... you can say anything you like about me. I don't mind. May Allah (SWT) guide us both. Ameen
He did not remove any verses from the Quran. GOD's math miracle exposed two verses at the end of Sura 9 that have always been suspect of being false injections. The simple fact that there is no 'bismallah' above Sura 9 is a big red waving flag from GOD saying this Sura has been tampered with. Muslims have always suspected it. GOD confirmed it.
Although, nice attempt at trying to divert attention away from the fact that you do not follow the Quran, but the Islamic Talmud (Hadith & Sunnah).
peace
you are doing the same for what you blame others i.e., you keep mathematical algorithm given by Rashad kahlifa sahib on a higher level and use it to judge as what should constitute Quran. For you mathematical algo by Khalifa sahib is more perfect.
There are nor ever were any suspect verses in the holy Quran. It is the word of Allah, free from doubt and any falsehood.
Re: Quran and sunnah is enough for us to be successful
psyah, i applaude you brother.. mashallah!
keep it up inshallah :k:
.