Quran and Hadith

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

sallaam

I have been coming to this site for long time now and seeing u guys puting posting on and debating on them for days and reach to no result what soo ever! I wont bug or or tell you not to come here its ur life and your time anyway, I think when u waste time on some thing it should have some result negative or positive.

Now recent few weeks ahmadis have been putting on the posts that they are right or what ever! Any way i dont have prob with its thire belife and they ll get what ever allha has for them!

Now my question for all of you is that(ahmedis, sunis, shia), Do u guys belive in quran and and the books of hadiths???

*i mean if u do then why are we having probs solving our religious problems and your answer should be YES or NO and if u wana give farther comments that fine.

wasallam

JaWaaN

2

Dear Jaawan:
Asslam:
Your comments are very much appriciable and I can say that I can learn a lot from the People like you.
You are hundrad percent right where you say that if we act on Quaran and Sunnah we could be saved from these useless debates.
May Allah (SWT) give us the true understanding of Quaran and Sunnah, Amin

3

Jaawan
It is quite obvious that the sunnis believe in the Quran and the hadith. As far as the Qadiani debate is concerned it is their interpretation of Quran and hadith VS ours. If you are interested in Qadiani perspective on Quran you should read the scholarly posts by Jewels on Adam is not the first human being as proved by Ahmadis from the Quran and the Jinn are nothing but humans. They also try to prove that the word fire is used metaphorically to describe a fiery-natured person and creation from dust implies that humans can be easily influenced. This is NOT the sunni perspective of Quran or hadith. This whole issue goes much deeper than just beleiving in the Quran or hadith. It entails how you understand them too.

4

saalllaam

Thank u guys for putting your perspectives... but brot. iqadeer sunis really dont believe in hadith well on quran no one has any prob execpt ahmadis which shouldnt be a prob cuz they are not muslims...any way this post is not about ahmadis being muslims i think we have already enough posts on that crap. but i have seen people(sunis) they take a certain part of hadith which then like and leave out the part which that they dont like. Now i my self dont believe in any Imam that some sunnis do (some of them belong to some imam or some masjid some thing like that in pakistan especially) but only thing i think i need and every body else needs is set of hadith and quran in thire house. then we wont have to come here and waste our time in probs that are perfectly explained in hadiths and quran and we come here depate on something and people just say what ever they think and just look at that prob. in the imam that they follow and that not right i think only think all of us should be following is Quran and hadith and thats it no thing else no other imam no other book or anybody who thinks that they are some one from god....i hope other people leave some thing on this cuz i think its a major prob in sunis and if we cant solve some thing basic and foundamental i probs like ahmadis will keep appearing in our lives!

god may help muslims gain there respect and may god help us understand islam then way it was in times of suhaba and prophet mohammad.

wasaallaam

JaWaaN

[This message has been edited by Jaawan (edited April 23, 1999).]

5

Assalam O Alaikum

I totally agree with brother Jaawan, the main cause of differences in the muslim ummah is just because everybody is following different imams, Allah SWT and Prophet SAW orders us to follow Quran and Sunnah and to understand it in the way the Companions RAA did. Even in the sunnis there are groups Malkis, Hambalees, Hanafees, Shafa'es etc. this is all because we are not following what we should. Every sect follows a different imam and that is the root of difference, had everyone followed the Quran and sunnah of Prophet SAW there would have been no differences.

Wallah O Alam Wassalatu Wassalamu Ala Nabiyyana Mohammed

6

jaawan and abdulla,
You guys asked for it. Now get ready for a painfully long lecture. I'll be very objective and to the point. Those of you who don't like to read about sects and all, should not read this post because you may not be able to digest it.

Once again, I won't write any subjective views. Here goes..

There is a serious misconception about the word 'sunni'. First let's see where it comes from. At its root level, Islam is about submitting to Allah and following the example of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), whose life Muslims consider as the best tafseer of Quran we can see. However, it's only natural to expect that with the passage of time, new things 'll come up the solutions of which are not directly available from Quran and Sunnah. That's where ijtaihaad and ijmaa comes in. This is what Islam is... Following Quran, learning from sunna and be ready for an ijtaihaad if there's a need.. It's a very simple picture. This is what the first four Caliphs taught. In time people broke away from this simple model, making it complex by adding prophets, imams by interpreting Quran in their own ways. Regardless of the debate, who is right and wrong between these simple and complex models (and I am not going into that debate, because put simply, I don't care) the simple model stayed mainstream throughout history. In time people start calling it "Ahl-e-sunna wal jamaa".. (they have the sunna and they believe in ijmaa after group discussions) There really is nothing more to it.

Now let's talk a bit about the four school of thoughts namely - hanafee, shaafee, hanbalee, malikee.

First of all, from the early years of Islam, you see a teacher-student model everywhere. You are urged to seek 'ilm' (of all kinds) and to do that you need few teachers. Islam at its basic belief level is simple enough that any Tom, Dick and Harry can understand it, but once you go into implementing it as a complete code of life, you can't act alone because

1- Times change and you can't find all the answers in hadiths. You have to understand the big picture and then use that knowledge to handle those small issues. An analogy would be having a straight line on paper and you want to check a point which lies far away from its endpoints. Knowing the line you can easily extend it to see if it hits the point or not. On paper (no pun) this sounds very easy, however not all of us have the peripheral knowledge to see the whole line and observe its direction. Sharia is an 'ilm' and it should be treated in similar way. If we set thousand people (who have never before come in contact with fiqhee ilm) we'll have thousand different interpretations and this can't be good..

2- There is a hadith whose meaning was, that the best people among the ummat are 'sahaba' and then the people who saw them (taaba'een) and then the poeple who saw taaba'een (taba-tabaa'een) and so on.. Why is it so ? Because those people were very close to the happenings and they saw the Islam the way Prophet implemented it. All we can do is to take guess, what would have happened 1400 years ago, that prompted a certain hadith. Those people on the other hand know, because they were living in that world. This becomes all the more important, when you think about the nature of hadiths. That is, they are at the very primitive level, record keeping endeavours. Some of the hadiths are relevant to a very particular moment in time, some of them belong to a certain age/time period, some of them are not about any shar'ee order at all and some give standing orders. All that is not obvious to people with limited knowledge like myself.

That's why most muslims pay so much attention to the works of Imam Abu Haneefa, Imam Shaafee etc.. Let's clear a misconception first,

The word "Imam" here just means a respected teacher/leader. If you don't like it, you can use, let's say, Mr. Abu Haneefa. This is in complete opposite to what other sects think of the word "Imam". For example it's a shia belief, that their "Imam" is a prohpet like figure, who can change previous sharia at will and can abrogate any previous laws on his own. For them, silsila-e-wahee is still going on. In fact all the sects in ahl-e-tashee that is athna-ashree (shia), aghakhani, bohree, khoja etc.. mostly differ on this concept of 'imamat'. Shia scholars believe that the final imam (12th) 'll come as Mahdi and complete the Quran (since they consider Quran to be incomplete), AgaKhani believe that imamat is continuing within the AgaKhan family. Like I said previously, I am just writing facts as I have read from their books. I am not saying who is right/who is wrong. I am saying though, that to me, all these other models look complex with lots of additions and I'd rather stick with the simpler sunna&jamaat model which carries no imaam and prophets.. (Remember Imam Abu Haneefa, Imam Maalik etc.. don't fall into that category of imams.. they were ordinary men like you and me, but with immense knowledge)

What Abu Haneefa, Shaafee and others did was to write in great detail using their knowledge and ilm and also the time they were living in, to explain the rules of sharia, so that the later day people 'll have some ease when a time for ijmaa/ijtaihaad comes. These are just schools of thoughts and not sects. Imam Shaafee prayed behind Imam Abu Haneefa and without doing 'rafatain' (shaafis do rafatain before rukoo in prayers, hanafis don't). Imam Abu Hanifa said, if someone found even one thing in his writing which went against quran and hadit, the person should throw his book to the wall. To repeat they were just helping us (the future generations) out for laying out the groundwork. They didn't create a sect, where salvation lies only in being hanafee or shaafee. No, it's not like that at all. Their differences are not like those within ahl-e-sunna, ahmadi, bahaaee etc........ Hanafee, shaafee, hanbali and maliki talk about the same things. Once again and read this carefully... they are not sects and the imams are not called imams for any other reason than to give them respect.

Let me write an event from the history, that 'll make this point clearer. Once Imam Abu Haneefa was going somewhere with his pupil. They saw a sahaabee riding a horse. The pupil asked Abu Haneefa, 'you have such an immense knowledge of fiqhee ilm, you have written so many books and this sahabee who we see in front of us, doesn't look a very well learned man, how do you compare yourself with him' and Abu Haneefa said 'forget the man, Do you see the dust coming out of his horse's nostrils ? Even that dust is above in rank than me, for this man was alive in the time of the prophet and he saw him (pbuh)'

I wrote more than I intended to. My apologies for this painfully long post. I am tired at the moment, but I'll try to summarise this some other time. I believe most of you must have understood my argument here. I hope.

Thanks for anyone who read this to the end.

Regards

Note: Sorry about any typos, spelling mistakes..

[This message has been edited by deepblue (edited April 24, 1999).]

7

saallaamm

well it wasnt that pain full u made some good points but here is then thing.....just follow wat i ll say ok..plz..let me first say that to make some memomries come back ok the religion of ours was COMPLETE when prophet was alive it is in quran..and when allah said that ur religion is complete then there is no need to make any changes wat soo ever and allha told us to hold only 2 things ONLY 2 thing with ur theeth which will keep u from going to hell....now in pakistan people follow certain imams like shafee and hanfee etc. now they just look at islam on wat ever the imam that they follow and wat ever books he wrote..and people have changed their books and added some new stuff which i dont wana get into now...((we shouldnt care wat ahmadis think or belive bcuz they are not considerd muslims in islamic world)) and let me say this again everything concerning life is in hadith and quran believe it or not every aspect of life....from sex to how u should clean ur teeth....from little to most complicated things in life soo and deepblue u said times changes and yes i do agree with u on that and when time changes we need exact translation of hadith according to kinda society we live in we cant just change it all and say it right..cuz its not right to change the foundamentals and basic things...in hadith i dnot blame imams who wrote thire books i blame people who changed thire words and made them according to wat they think is right but its not they are just gathering hell fire for them selves ...

JaaWan

8

Br Jawaan
You said

[quote]
i dnot blame imams who wrote thire books i blame people who changed thire words and made them according to wat they think is right but its not they are just gathering hell fire for them selves ...
[/quote]
. Now, perhaps unintentionally, this can really open up a can of worms. Please do not question my intentions but I am curious as to what people are you referring to above?. First of all if they are scholars of deen then I guess different scholars have different interpretations of Ahadith. These interpretations are highly subjective and reflect the milieu of how and where these scholars aquired there learning. For example deobandi scholars will have different interpretation of some ahadith as opposed to ahle-hadith, salafi or barelwi. I have observed a lot of deep-seated resentment on part of all these groups against each other since they all rigidly stick to their own interpretation and show almost fanatical passion in condemning others of commiting bidaat and shirk. If I or you embark upon a debate representing a particular group we will almost achieve nothing except pointless bickering among ourselves and at this point I strongly believe that we are need of a united ummat rather than dividing ourselves. I might be wrong, but the scholars of all 4 fiqhs have consensus regarding the aqidah of being a muslim. There are differences in how to perform certain practices but mostly a big deal is not made out of this. In the end, Allah really looks at our intentions and not our deeds. WallahOAlam Bisawab.

9

Assalam O Alaikum

Brother deepblue, let me share some of my experience with you.

Once i had a discussion with a hanafi friend of mine, the subject was to say ameen loudly or not while prayers, i gave him a sahih hadith and he rejected saying Imam Abu Hanifa should have read this one and he has not instructed us to say ameen loudly, so there is something in that.

As we all know Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim are the most authentic books of hadiths. Now how can a person who calls himself muslim reject a hadith of Prophet SAW over a saying of Imam Abu Hanifa or any other imam.

No doubt all these imams were great scholars and has done so much for islam, but why we follow them, why not directly Prophet SAW and his Sahaba RAA.

You may also know that there are differences in the four imams even in the basic things, i.e the method of prayer. Has that also changed with time?

Allah SWT told us to follow Quran and Prophet SAW i.e. his sunnah, but what the people are doing now a days, they are following the imams striclty i.e. they are doing the imam's taqleed not the taqleed of Prophet SAW. A momin has to do the taqleed of prophet SAW.

Now if a muslim wants to know the method of prayer, whome he should follow

  1. Imam Abu Hanifa
  2. Imam Shafae
  3. Any other imam
  4. Prophet SAW and his Companions

If u ask me i would go for option 4.

My only point is that we should follow Quran and sunnah, sunnah can be followed by ahadiths, and if there is some matter for which you have no guidance from Quran and Sunnah then we can refer the work of any of the imams. But following only one imam and giving him preference over the sayings of Prophet SAW is in no way matching the islamic teachings.

Wallah O Alam wassalatu wassalamu ala nabiyyana Mohammed.

10

saallaaamm

Bro.abdulla i agree with u very much i couldnt have said it better.

Now iqadeer my point was that in pakistan people have CREATED things thta dont exist in islam they never existed at the time of prophet and never existed at time of suhaba and people after that..I MY SELF WITH MY OWN VERY EYES SAW PEOPLE DOING SAJDA TO GRAVES NOW IS THAT IN ISLAM DIDNT ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET TOLD US TO noT TO DO THAT BUT STILL WE DO IT! WE SEE IN PAKISTAN THAT WOMEN GO TO CEMENTARIES WITH OUT ANY SHARAM ..BUT PROPHET TOLD WOMEN TO STAY IN THIRE HOMES AND NOT TO GO IN CEMENTARIES...PEOPLE ALSO DO GHEYARWEEN SHARIFS TO SOME IMAM I THINK QDAR JELANI I THINK IM NOT SURE....THEY ALSO GO TO GRAVES OF OTHER IMAMS OR WISE MEN WHO WERE VERY CLOSE TO ISLAM TO HAVE THOSE DEAD PEOPLE PRAY FOR THEM NOW TO ME..IT A SHIRK AND BEDDATS THAT PEOPLE CREATED THEY ARE NOT IN HADITH OR QURAN NOW IS THAT MISUNDERSTANDING OR PEOPLE MISS UNDERSTAND I DONT KNOW ALL I KNOW IS THATS NOW RIGHT AND THE ONLY THING RIHGT IS QURAN HADITH AS ABDULLA MENTIONED BUKHARI AND MUSLIM IF WE CANT FIND SOLUTION TO SOME PROBLEM IN THOSE BOOKS AND QURAN THEN WE may TURN TO THOSE IMAMS ....

sAALLaaaMMM

JaaWaN

11

DeepBlue,

Regarding your misguided or misinformed or should I say, invalid statements about Shia athna-ashree's beliefs, I would certainly hope that you have had consulted some authenticated shia athna-ashree's source to verify your statements before decorating your response with them. Please validate your following statements with references so a neutral reader won't go astray on shia athna-ashree's basic beliefs by reading your message:

  1. "it's a shia belief, that their "Imam" is a prohpet like figure, who can change previous sharia at will and can abrogate any previous."

  2. "Shia scholars believe ......and complete the Quran (since they consider Quran to be incomplete)."

Note:
My questioning is for shia athna-ashree's beliefs, please don't respond to this message with references to Aghakhanies, Bhories or other minor deviated sects which existed in past and no longer being practiced.

12

Asalamu Alaikum,

Firstly we must follow the Qur'an and Sunnah.

In things where there isn't a clear idea then we can look to Imams for answers. Imams base their opinions on the Qur'an and Sunnah, so this is something to keep in mind.

In regards to Abu Hanifa, we know that there are some Hadiths that he never got, and so you'll find that the Hanifi school of thought and the teachings of Abu Hanifa are not always the same.

The way rulings were made, it is that if there is nothing that goes against an action, then it is permissible. An example of this is that Abu Hanifa did not have the hadith which stated that women need a Wali in order to marry. So it was permissible by Abu Hanifa that women could marry without a Wali.

Later, other Imams recieved this hadith which showed that women required a Wali to marry... obviously the daleel of the other Imams is stronger than that of Abu Hanifa, and the Hanifi school of thought does require that women have a Wali, because the students of Abu Hanifa took this into consideration and changed the ruling.

When we look for knowledge, we must always look to the context in which decisions were made, and chose the strongest daleel.

The best way to handle things that are not clear in the Qur'an and Sunnah is to take the opinion of the majority of scholars.

In terms of prayer, if the Prophet (SAW) did an act, it is allowed in prayer. Obviously, saying an Ameen doesn't make or break a prayer, so let's not get all worked up over small things, and focus on the big picture, which is to worship Allah the way He wants to be worshipped.

If we start nit picking on small details of things, then this is where we will fall into more trouble. The fitnah that is present in this time and age is partially due to all this fussiness.

If we remember and thank Allah for all the things He has provided us, and do the things He requires of us then Insha'Allah we'll all be okay.

[This message has been edited by Yacoob (edited April 26, 1999).]

13

Assalam O Alaikum

Brother Yacob,

I agree with you, but in case you were pointing at me about the dispute of saying ameen loudly or quitely, i just gave an example that the imams had difference in such small basic things also, So the proper way for us is to refer hadith in all matters, Its not that i wanted a debate on it, though it can be made, because if you have a hadith of prophet SAW and you ignore it, regardless of the contents, its near to kuffar.

14

Bismihi Ta’la
Assalam o alaikum

br. deepblue, i am concerned with the comments that you shared with us, as a moderator, regarding the Shia Ithna Ashari beliefs.

it does not beget that a person of your standing, who is moderating would indulge in a display of writings that are not true.

i would suggest that you read up on our beliefs at this web site

http://www.al-islam.org/index

if you have questions, i can be reached at [email protected]

regards

– Abbas, Ali

15

Bismihi Ta'la
Assalam o alaikum

dear br. Abdulla, allow me to share what you had written a few days ago

Abdulla > 1. Imam Abu Hanifa
Abdulla > 2. Imam Shafae
Abdulla > 3. Any other imam
Abdulla > 4. Prophet SAW and his Companions

Abdulla > If u ask me i would go for option 4.

Abdulla > My only point is that we should
Abdulla > follow Quran and sunnah, sunnah
Abdulla > can be followed by ahadiths, and
Abdulla > if there is some matter for which
Abdulla > you have no guidance from Quran
Abdulla > and Sunnah then we can refer the
Abdulla > work of any of the imams. But
Abdulla > following only one imam and giving
Abdulla > him preference over the sayings of
Abdulla > Prophet SAW is in no way matching
Abdulla > the islamic teachings.

also a note to the other readers, i find much reference to the term Quran and 'Sunnah', yet the traditions, imply this:

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim as well as many other sources that:

Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: "O' people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance... The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. (three times)."

Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1873, Tradition #36.
And many others such as Sahih al-Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad (see below).

For the English version of Sahih Muslim, see Chapter CMXCVI, v4, p1286, Tradition #5920

and also in another tradition:

The messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "I am leaving for you two precious and weighty Symbols that if you adhere to BOTH of them you shall not go astray after me. They are, the Book of Allah, and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The Merciful has informed me that These two shall not separate from each other till they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 662-663,328, report of 30+ companions, with reference to several chains of transmitters.
al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, Chapter of "Understanding (the virtues) of Companions, v3, pp 109,110,148,533 who wrote this tradition is authentic (Sahih) based on the criteria of the two Shaikhs (al-Bukhari and Muslim).
Sunan, by Daarami, v2, p432
Musnad, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 14,17,26,59, v4, pp 366,370-372, v5, pp 182,189,350,366,419
Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p585, Tradition #990
al-Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 21,30
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p230
al-Kabir, by al-Tabarani, v3, pp 62-63,137
Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Chapter al-Iti'sam bi Habl Allah, v1, p44.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (complete version), v4, p113, under commentary of verse 42:23 of Quran (four traditions)
al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, by Ibn Sa'd, v2, p194, Pub. by Dar Isadder, Lebanon.
al-Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, v1, p353, and also in v2
Majma' al-Zawa'id, al-Haythami, v9, p163
al-Fateh al-Kabir, al-Binhani, v1, p451
Usdul Ghabah fi Ma'rifat al-Sahaba, Ibn al-Athir, v2, p12
Jami' al-Usul, Ibn al-Athir, v1, p187
History of Ibn Asakir, v5, p436
al-Taj al-Jami' Lil Usul, v3, p308
al-Durr al-Manthoor, al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v2, p60
Yanabi al-Mawaddah, al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, pp 38,183
Abaqat al-Anwar, v1, p16

See, the problem is not with the 'Sunnah' but the eventual source that brings the Sunnah to you: and the source is indeed the Ahl al Bayt.

now a question for you: can you site me a reference for the wording of the hadith that states 'Quran and Sunnah'? will look forward to see it from any of the readers.

Regards

Abbas, Ali

16

Bismihi Ta'la
Assalam o alaikum

br. deepblue, we appreciate your insight to the term 'ahlal sunna wal jamah' even though, history bears and picture a reality much divergent from what you have shared.

i would suggest looking up any historical work, be it the Tarikhul Khulafa by as Suyuti (in english as well as urdu), Tabaris Tarikh (in english as well as urdu) and maybe Ibn Kathirs Tarikh (bidahiya wa nahiya). History bears witness that the term 'ahlal sunna wal jamaah' was coined when Muawiya had ascended to the throne following the abdiction of Imam Hasan [a]. following the civil strife between Imam Ali [a] and the mother of the believers, 'Aisha (ra), Talha and Zubayr (may Allah have mercy on their soul who were responsible for the killing of thousands of muslims), the community was divided. even though Imam Hasan [a] was entrusted the Caliph, Muawiya's plan to abdicate him and to put an end to this strife, termed in the usage of the year as the year of the "union" or the year of the jamaah. this is where the history comes from.

next time, can the readers share some historical references, before they make a reference to a historical reality? this will add to the learning of many readers, insha 'Allah!

-- Ali Abbas

17

Abbas sahib,
I have absolutely no desire to get into an argument with you. You may hold grudges against Ayesha, Talha and Zubair (the latter two got martyred in Jang-e-Jamal), but I hold absolutely no such feelings for your imams. I do believe that Hazrat Ali/Hazrat Fatima never got any, nor were intended to receive any devine revelation from Allah and that he was an ummatee of Prophet Mohammad just like you, me and other muslims and (paraphrasing what Najashee said about 1400 years ago) 'not a straw more than that'.

Imranz
Either you are not a shia, or you are a shia who isn't very knowledgable in his sect. Let me answer your questions,

Q1- "Imamat" is a primary shia belief. There are multitude of books you can read. From such authentic/reference work as Al-Kafi, to as publicly accessible books as the Islamiat book (shia) for ninth-tenth grade in Pakistan, you can get your info from many sources.

Q2- You edited out the portion of 'Imam Mahdi being the 12th Imam' as believed by majority of shia scholars. Again it's a fundamental belief of this sect. As to the 'Quran being incomplete' claim, I should have said, "most shia scholars believe..." rather than "shia scholars believe". I apologise for that. Throughout history, there have been shia scholars who never believed in that claim.

As for the references, you can again read Al-Kafi. However, some of the most controversial hadiths in it are dubbed "not sahih" by some. But it's a historical fact, and admitted by many shia scholars themselves that the compiler/writer of Al-Kafi - I can't remember his name Al-Kamiyanee ?? - believed in the 'tahreef-e-quran' claim. Whatever the case may be, the book remains primary reference material for Shia scholars even with all of those extremely sensitive hadiths.

Finally, let me say that I wrote all of that as a fact. I was not throwing any judgement, neither I intend to. If you want to extend the facts to come up to some conclusion then by all means do that, but don't blame me for whatever conclusion you come up with.

I'll also not write any references about this matter. For one, it's common knowledge. Second, I don't want to get into a formal debate on this issue. Third, I don't feel answerable to anyone here, neither should anyone else feel so, for that matter. This leaves you with three options.
1- Ignore my posts from now on, or
2- Keep an eye on my posts and reply back whenever you find something fishy.
3- Send your complaints to [email protected], and if they want, I'll mail them the references they can chew on for an year.

Be knowledgable Imran Sahib. It allows you to make informed decisions.

This is my final take on this topic.

Coming back to topic at hand...

Jaawan,
You gave me an excellent opportunity to summarise the entire issue. Before doing that I urge you to read carefully what Yacoob wrote.

Two things,
1- I don't believe that Quran and Hadith have answers for all things, "however" they contain "all" the necessary information to come up with an answer to any question. Except few major rules, Quran is not a handbook like manual, rather it gives you the ability to handle any situation, that is if you are holding on to it (by understanding its meanings)

2- This ability to handle any situation requires a lot of effort and knowledge and not all of us are prepared for it. I for one, am not. Especially when it comes to the ilm of hadith. You need to know a lot of things before you can understand the background, context and implication of each and every hadith.

3- The minor differences between shaafi, hanbali, maliki and hanafi schools of thought are, just that - Minor. For any person who goes hyper on these differences I can show you thousands who don't. On the other hand, I can show you thousands who like to waste time in pointless debates, because they thought they could strike gold on their own by arming themselves with Quran and Sahih Bukhari (oh, and Ibn-e-Taymmaa too).

My aplogies once again for this extremely long post.

Thank you.

[This message has been edited by deepblue (edited April 27, 1999).]

18

AliAbbas wrote,

br. deepblue, we appreciate your insight to the term 'ahlal sunna wal jamah' even though, history bears and picture a reality much divergent from what you have shared.<

"we" ? On discussion forums you only speak for yourself. Never forget that.

Thanks.

19

Brothers,

I have to agree with Deepblue on this one. If there was no room for ijtehad at all you would not be sat in front of your keyboards tapping in your messages. We have Qur'an, we have hadith and we have access to reliable scholars who generally refer to one of the four universally accepted schools of thought. Nit-picking between different minor interpretations is pointless and disruptive. Please remember that difference in opinion is allowed as long as there is authentic daleel (evidence)to support it. Try to leave the minor issues and concentrate on the important ones.

Br. AliAbass,

It might be better to concentrate on issues we can agree upon rather than highlight perceived weaknesses in each others viewpoints. There are plenty of interesting views in the books of the Shias if we want to turn this into a slanging match. I have deliberately ignored a few of your recent remarks to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not being provocative. To keep the peace it may be better for all to avoid these subjects.

20

Bismihi Ta’la
Assalam o alaikum

this post is directed to br. deepblue. when i had suggested that “we” are appreciative of your insight, it was said with the utmost sincerity. it was meant as a compliment not meant to hurl any insult against you. while i am human and at the same time fallible, i expect to be corrected if i am wrong. nevertheless, i always give my fellow muslim the benefit of doubt if a matter is unclear to me.

touching on the issues of imamate, belief in the mahdi and also the in-completeness of the quran, i invite you to read these references

  1. Imamate as Expounded and attested from the Quran

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/2.html

and

the pronouncement of the Caliphate of Imam Ali [a] in the initial preach

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/7.html

On the issue of the Mahdi [a], it is also a fundamental belief of the Ahlal Sunna. How-ever, for your reading

Ahlal Sunna documentation on the issue
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter2/2.html

Evidence for the existence of the Mahdi [a]
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter2/4.html

The Beginning of the Belief in the Mahdi [a]
http://www.al-islam.org/mahdi/nontl/Chap-1.htm

Ahlal Sunna views on the Character of the Mahdi [a]
http://www.al-islam.org/mahdi/nontl/Chap-8.htm

And lastly, the issue of the Quran, I can only suggest Chapter8 of the Shia Encyclopedia for your reading, insha 'Allah

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia

hope that this will shed light on some issues.

Iltimase duas

Abbas, Ali

p.s: there is an excellent resource out on the Shia position of the compilation of the text, by the late Ayatullah al Khui from Oxford Univ Press, titled ‘The Prolegomena to the Quran’. it labors on many issues that have been discussed here (is bismillah a part of the sura, abrogation, the collection of the text, traditions implying to tahrif and their critique) etc.

[This message has been edited by AliAbbas (edited April 27, 1999).]