Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

I dont know why shias are always jumping around with this topic. I have yet to find a Sunni who shows disrespect for the Ahl e Bait. Respecting and loving them is an absolute must. Than why is this topic brought about all the time…no ones disputing the fact that the ahle bait should not be respected.

However it is the truth that the original ahl e baits…were the Azwaaj e Mutahharaat, the Prophets Wives. It was only later, the Prophet made Du’a to Allah swt to make Ali rah’s family amongst his Ahl e Baits…just like he did Du’a for Salman Farsi…so that he could be part of his Ahle Baits.

However there are a more crucial topics that demand discussion.

What do you mean by u respect Noble companions like the ones mentioned above? What about the rest? No doubt the people you mentioned are nobler than the noblest. But these are just a some of the Sahabas. What about the rest?
Abu Bakr, the Rasool sas’s best friend, the Man who stayed with him through thick and thin. The Man who gave him his daughter in marriage. The Man who was chosen to lead the prayers during the Rasool sas’s last days, when he was too sick to lead the prayers.
Umar rah…the person for whom the prophet specifically did Du’a so that he may become Muslim.
Uthman rah…the Sahaba, who did soo much for the Deen, at a time when Muslims were financially very week, that Rasool sas…said that from now onwards what ever Uthman does in his life, he wont be held accountable.

And what about the rest of the 7 wives?

PS. Be careful of what u say over here…cause they are our Mothers, and I dont like to hear anything negative abt my Mothers.

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

dear sheraz, twisting the meanings of Quranic verses just shows that u have no good and sound ground to stand on…

the verse 42:23 never mentions the AHL-UL-BAYT…
and it does not mean what u have written…

the words that u have translated as “love for my near relatives Ahl-ul-Bait” r “mawadat quarbaa”…
and what is being said here is not that the Prophet (saw) is asking people to love his relatives…
infact he is saying that he does not ask for any reward for the prophetic mission but atleast he (i.e. the prophet) has the right to ask his close relatives to treat him with love and not to persecute him as his family (i.e. Quraysh, and even his own uncles) did…

i dont understand why u twist meanings of the verses…

shows clear lack of the understanding the arabic language and following of false translations…

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

Ibn Sadique bhai,

Just kidding about the color coding ofcourse :-). i sent u a short pm already, I’ll send u a longer one soon.

I tried going through the links, but the thing is that these authors start supporting their views with other ahadith, that I consider potentially unreliable. and so I run into problems.

Regarding your explanation for the gender switch, all this conversation is about the fact that the second part of the verse addresses a seperate group of people than the wives. Nobody can claim who that seperate group is, but once you admit the fact that there are masculine members in the group, attaching the previous context to it doesnt make sense (dont bedizen yourself, you’re not like normal women.. etc)

Now how do we identify the second group? We identify through the hadith I gave, in sahih Muslim. Which explicitly mentions these five people and says that this verse was recited at that point by the Prophet, and also explicitly states that the wives are NOT included in the ahl e bayt referenced verse. what can be more clear cut?

the only way forward that I see for sunnis is that you deny that this hadith is reliable.

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

^ or your overall understanding is unreliable, clouded by shi-ite hatred of some members of the Prophet's (saw) household...

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

Strange thing is, our sunni brethran claim they follow Quran and then Sunnah. But I see they totaly ignored the second part of my above post.

Here I would like to bring another evidence from Sahih Muslim and Sahih al-Tirmidhi that why the wives of the Prophet are not included in Ahlul-Bayt

The following incident is related to the event of "Mubahala" (which means imprecation, or invoking the curse of Allah upon the liar), which took place in the 9th-10th year of Hijrah. In that year a delegation consisting of 14 Christian priests came from Najran to meet the Prophet (PBUH&HF). When they met the Prophet they asked him what is his opinion about Jesus (AS). The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "You may take rest today and you will receive the reply afterwards." The next day, 3 verses of Quran (3:59-61) about Jesus were revealed. When Christians did not accept the words of Allah, The Prophet recited the last revealed verse: But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and our selves and your selves; then let us be earnest in prayer and invoke the curse of Allah upon the liars. (Quran 3:61).

In this way, the Prophet (PBUH&HF) challenged the Christians. The next day the Christian priests came out on one side of the field. Also on the other side, the Prophet came out of his house carrying al-Husain in his arm with al-Hasan walking along with him while he was holding his hand. Behind him was Fatimah al-Zahra, and behind her was Ali, peace be upon them all. When the Christians saw the five pure souls, and how determined the Prophet is in his idea that he put the closest people to him at risk, the Christians were terrified and abstained from the proposed malediction (Mubahala) and submitted to a treaty with the Prophet (PBUH&HF).

al-Suyuti who was a great Sunni scholar, wrote:In the above verse (3:61), according to what Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (the great companion of the Prophet) said, the word "sons" refers to al-Hasan and al-Husain, the word "women" refers to Fatimah, and the word "our selves" refer to the Prophet and Ali. Thus Ali is referred as "the self" of the Prophet (Nafs of the Prophet).

Reference: al-Durr al-Manthoor by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v2, p38

Muslim and al-Tirmidhi both confirm the above incident, and recorded the following tradition in their authentic collections of traditions:Narrated Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas: ...And when the verse 3:61 was revealed, the Prophet called Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain. Then the Prophet said: "O Lord! These are my family members (Ahli)."

Sunni references:

  • Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of virtues of Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1871, the end of tradition #32.
  • Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p654
  • al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p150, who said this tradition is authentic based on the criteria set by two Shaikhs, al-Bukhari and Muslim.
  • Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p25

The point, here, is that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) did not bring any of his wives to the field of "Mubahala", and according to above tradition, he used the word "Ahl" (family) ONLY for the above-mentioned individuals (i.e., Imam Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain). Note that in the verse 3:61 of Quran Allah uses plural form "women" by saying "Let us bring our women", but the Prophet only brought his daughter Fatimah (AS). If there were more than one woman in Ahlul-Bayt, the Prophet was required by this verse to bring them, but since there was not any other woman among his Ahlul-Bayt, he brought Fatimah (AS) only. Again, in that incident, the Prophet explicitly mentioned who Ahlul-Bayt are, and named them one by one, and Muslim, al-Tirmidhi, al-Hakim, and many other Sunni scholars recorded that and all confirmed its authenticity. There was no mention of his wives in any of these reports.

In another Sunni commentary of Quran, it is narrated on the authority of Abdullah Ibn Umar that:
The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "Had there been any soul on the whole earth better than Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan and al-Husain, Allah would have commanded me to take them along with me to Mubahala. But as they were superior in dignity and respect to all human be beings, Allah confined His choice on them only for participation in Mubahala." Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Baidhawi, under the commentary of Verse 3:61

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

^ If your posts are too long and mention more references than substance, the chances are that 95% of people wont read them in the first place ! Because nobody knows what your copy paste is talking about.

So it is advisable to keep your posts short and specific, If you want some one to read them.

Comming back to the topic, All the muslims love and respect ahl-e-bait, so bringing references after references in support of this is, of no use really.

Secondly, if you do not want to include certain people in that family, its your way of thinking.
For example, If there is a dispute between my grandmother and my uncle, I can not say that my grandmother is not part of family or other way around, It will be childish on my part.

So, For most of the muslims, all of them are respected and treated with honor. Regarding, piety "only" Allah is the judge. It is not suitable for mortals to play God.

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

Salam alaikum

On the basis that there is no real basis to the "I leave behind Qur'an and Sunnah" version of the Prophet's hadith, I have a question. Let's say that the Ahl al-Bait may include the wives or may not depending on one's take on history. But why is it that only the Shi'a keep going on about following the Ahl al-Bait with the Qur'an. Why don't we see the Sunni's giving extra credence to ahadith from the Wives of the Prophet and/or from the Banu Hashim? After all the Prophet (s) had said:

"I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I leave behind two precious things (thaqalayn) amongst you: the Book of Allah and my Ahl al-Bayt. Verily, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the side of the Pond."

So it should go without saying that, for example, in order to obtain the commentary of a verse of the Qur'an, the first choice would be the Wives of the Prophet (s). If an explanation from an Umm al-mu'mineen was different from another Companion, hers would carry more weight.

Why do we not find any Sunni group in Islamic history that understood the hadith in this way and adopted the methodology in this manner?

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

Salam alaikum

Below is pasted from a Shia site, to elaborate on what I mentioned above regarding the sunnah hadith.

Didn't the Prophet (s) say “I leave behind the Book of God and my Sunnah” ?

This is a popular misconception. The fact is that there is no reliable basis for this statement attributed to the Prophet’s (s) Final Sermon. It is completely absent from any of the six Sihah books!! The version in Malik’s Muwatta’, Ibn Hisham’s Sirat Rasul Allah, and from him in al-Tabari’s Ta’rikh, all suffer from incomplete chains of narration with several links in the chain missing! The other versions that have a full chain of narration (isnad) - of which there are very few - all contain narrators that are unanimously considered to be highly unreliable by leading Sunni scholars of rijal. These remarkable facts can be confirmed by those interested in research by referring to the relevant books.

Clearly, no one is suggesting that the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) should not be followed. As stated before, the Prophet (s) wished for the Muslims to refer to his Ahl al-Bayt as a reliable, pure and inerrant source for his Sunnah.

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

^
because the hadith we have never said "Book of Allah and my Ahl-al-Bayt"....
it always said "kitaba Allahi wa sunnati"....

i dont know how that translates to ahl-al-bayt....

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

armughal wrote:

because the hadith we have never said "Book of Allah and my Ahl-al-Bayt"....
it always said "kitaba Allahi wa sunnati"....

Do you know of any version with a reliable isnad?

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

^ i am not sure why my post was just ignored

Either you love the Family (a.s.) or the people who fought the Family (a.s.)..not a single Imam (a.s.) died a natural death...there was so much hatred for the Family (a.s.)..so stop with your "dhong" that you love the Family (a.s.) ..you can't like both the Family (a.s.) and the enemies

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

is sahih muslim not one of ur books? you will believe in all of the hadiths but won’t believe in few of the hadith that praises the Family (a.s.)

hey you arent the first..this thing started right after the death of Holy Prophet (pbuh&up)…eemaan abhi tuk dil tuk nahi pohncha hai

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

Sheraz wrote:

Either you love the Family (a.s.) or the people who fought the Family (a.s.)..not a single Imam (a.s.) died a natural death...there was so much hatred for the Family (a.s.)..so stop with your "dhong" that you love the Family (a.s.) ..you can't like both the Family (a.s.) and the enemies

It is not true to say that the Sunni's don't love the Ahl al-Bait or knowingly love their enemies.

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

bashir sahab..let me be very simple..were there people in history that fought the Family (a.s.) ? just answer that

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

Good thing you told that you can read minds and analyse hearts the of people :k:

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

[Yusufali 63:1] When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, “We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah.” Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars.
[Yusufali 63:2] They have made their oaths a screen (for their misdeeds): thus they obstruct (men) from the Path of Allah: truly evil are their deeds.
[Yusufali 63:3] That is because they believed, then they rejected Faith: So a seal was set on their hearts: therefore they understand not.

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

So…ur trying to equate the entire Muslims Ummah, i.e. Sunni to the Yazeedi fauj. Wow, great going.

Btw. Sheraz iam still waiting for the replies. The Rasool sas’s Ahl e Bait had other members too, apart from Fatima rah’s family.

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

sharaabi sahab
do you think only the yazeedi fauj fought the Family (a.s.) ?
battle of jamal and sifeen bhool gaye?

if you read this post completely you will know when Prophet (pbuh&up) talks about Family (a.s.) He talks about Ali (a.s.) and Offspring of Ali (a.s.) ..this has been proven for your own hadith books..hamari books to aap log kiya hi maanengay

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

Now you can analyse the faith in heart as well.

Good thing some people are blessed with, this devine quality that they know what is/was in the hearts of people. According to my belief only Allah knows this.

'Hate for mankind' is the last thing, Islam teaches. You can very well change this as you are blessed with devine knowledge.

Re: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt (as)

no code red..Quran is talking about the hypocrites..this kind does exist..now you gotta use ur akal and decide which side you want to choose...ek to choose kerni hi pare gi

go read my post earlier about surah fateeha..hopefully it will make it easier..i doubt it cuz i think u have made up ur mind already