Re: Questions for desi atheists
Lol TLK bro you should say "Science" kay wastay chup ho jao. "SCIENCE DAMN" "God Damn" :D
Newton ke wastay chup ho ja'o :D
Re: Questions for desi atheists
Re: Questions for desi atheists
But newtown wasnt an Atheist :)
Re: Questions for desi atheists
Einstien ki khala kay wastey chup ho jao!
Re: Questions for desi atheists
OH MY Stephen Hawking, kya baat kee hai
Re: Questions for desi atheists
Peace Ghost14
The prophets did not need convincing and certainly were not convinced by miracles ... it was reason ... Muhammad (SAW) doubted his miraculous encounter with Jibreel (AS) he was not convinced by it ... rather it was reason of Khadijah (AS) that gave him comfort and remove his doubts. The Qur'an addresses this response ... it is an age old question ... "If God exists, or if you are from God then prove it" ... In one account either Abu Jahl or Abu Lahb asked Muhammad (SAW)to prove that he was a prophet by telling him what was in his hand ... He picked up a rock earlier ...
Muhammad (SAW) said, I'll better than that ... I'll get what is in your hand to tell you who I am, and the rock spoke ... "O so-and-so the man who you address is the Prophet of Allah (SWT)"
He threw the stone and cried magician ... magician ... miracles don't prove the truth of God. There is another reason why God does not show Himself to us ... In the account of Musa (AS) God revealed a glimmer of His reflecting Light on the mountains and they became rubble and the mere suggestion of that Light sent Musa (AS) unconscious. We in this world are living in a temporal system and our temporal bodies and existences cannot render sheer infinity ... the attempt of doing so will be catastrophic. Our human existence makes seeing God impossible. And had we seen Him, our choice to worship Him would carry no weight ... we would fall into unrelenting worship we will be unable to resist and unwilling to resist His Light and we will fall prostrate ... One of the punishments on the Day of Judgement to those who were too arrogant to worship God in this life will be prevented from it on that Day ... when their whole selves will be forcing them to submit, but the chains they will be in will prevent them and keep their backs straight ... On that Day there will be no choice but to submit ... so we should be wise and CHOOSE to submit in this life ... Why ask out of arrogance show me a sign and then if you do not accept then surely the punishment should be increased ... Such was the case of earlier generations they saw clear proofs but in their denial they were destroyed.
Who are we to question the Wisdom of God?
Again, you haven't explained why prophets believed in the teachings. A cynic might say that the prophets made up the teachings as they went along. I find it convenient that God's teachings are only ever revealed to one man.
And you should question any teachings that tell you to take a certain view on things. For example, if you are a Muslim or Christian, you automatically have to regard gays as sinners. They could be the most charitable people you've ever met, but the belief system you hold to be true tells you how you must view them.
It's not arrogance to question. It's encouraged. And if questioning is not encouraged, then religion is nothing but a cult. If I am a certain way, then according to religion, God made me this way. I'm not disrespecting anyone, but following a belief system that defines your view on many issues on life is a big step, and if this belief system is better than one I can reason for myself, then I need some proof or reason to follow.
Then you can't expect to see or feel God when you have already shut Him out due to arrogance ... The Qur'an tells us this - read the story of Adam's creation and how Iblis responded ... Know that Allah (SWT) is upset with you when you can't realise your own folly and it makes your further away from Him. Even logically speaking if God made us and sustains us, then what right do we have to demand anything from Him ... we should be submitting and then we wil see ...
Let me tell this short metaphor I thought up some years back ...
**When we let the bright lights shine the stars are denied their navigation ...
**The street lights although give us a lot of sight at night on the streets, but they will not tell us which way to go, they will not tell us the bearing on a greater scale ... Rather the light pollution will block out the stars ...
When we switch off these street lights we suddenly see more stars and they are beautiful but they also navigate - they are signs ... in fact the Arabic word for "qur'anic verse is one word for star" the Qur'an is a set of constellations - beautiful and guiding lights ... only when we switch off the bright street lights - our own biases, arrogances, and open ourselves up to receive guidance then we will see the stars and receive guidance ... try it if you can! Just give in to the assumption one day and see what happens ... can you develop a Love for God can move one step towards Him so He rushes towards you?
I have a problem with this view: "you must open your heart". So you have to make yourself believe? How do you know what you "feel" is real? Children know there is a monster under their bed. Schizophrenics *know *that the world is out to get them. Just because it's a reality in your head does not mean it's real.
A Jew once asked the prophet why Allah created the material world? The Prophet replied, *“I was a Treasure unknown then I desired to be known so I created a creation to which I made Myself known, then they knew Me.” *
To me this suggest that God the creator of what we see and the unseen created this universe so that he maybe known. He existed throughout the eons and wanted his creation to know him and worship him. But the sort of dogmatic worship that Hindus and buddists do is only ritualistic. What God is trying to say is that "Look i exist i am here, who is it that will break away from their material bonds on this earth and search for me?" He is a treasure therefore he is not easily discovered. Many Sufis have also contemplated this and they came to conclusion that in order to discover God you must break away from the bonds which hold you down to this earth. And this is not only in Islam this is prevalent in many other Hindu spiritual techniques. In which the novice opens up his or her's "Qi" in order to experience the ultimate truth that exists in this universe. You simply can't experience God through Dogmatic techniques and simple recitations. What religion makes easier for us is to exist and live a "good" life in this world and prepares us a sort of default entry in to the after life as "Good people". Now if you must experience something more mystical and spiritual you have to give up your ties to this world and be willing to show this force this power in the universe and beyond it, that you're willing to give up everything for this mystical experience. Rationalists will never understand this because they've wired their brains to think God in material terms.
Rationalists don't doubt religion because they're materialistic, they doubt religion because there is no proof. Religious stories themselves speak of miracles that convinced the original believers and yet, all these miracles just happened to have occurred a long time ago so we just have to believe (without proof!) that they happened.
All these minor nitpicks about religion are basically all about why you believe in religion. The fact is there is no proof. We must perform philosophical and verbal gymnastics to make arguments about why religion is true.
And I don't even care if people believe in a religion. It's when religion dominates their life and their views on the world, and they are not open minded enough to even try to see other arguments, that religion causes problems.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
Rationalists don't doubt religion because they're materialistic, they doubt religion because there is no proof. Religious stories themselves speak of miracles that convinced the original believers and yet, all these miracles just happened to have occurred a long time ago so we just have to believe (without proof!) that they happened.
All these minor nitpicks about religion are basically all about why you believe in religion. The fact is there is no proof. We must perform philosophical and verbal gymnastics to make arguments about why religion is true.
And I don't even care if people believe in a religion. It's when religion dominates their life and their views on the world, and they are not open minded enough to even try to see other arguments, that religion causes problems.
Its human history, its human experience that we must agree upon. Just how you believe that Ceaser was once emperor of Rome so must you believe that Jesus walked on water on the basis of Common Era written history. Just how people documented that Alexander the great Conquered India, same way people wrote down the miracles of the prophets in Holy books. If you believe one thing yet disregard the other than what if i Say that Cease didn't exist and that instead of Ceaser it was the flying spaghetti monster that ruled ROME! Come on! You can't possibly ask for proof in those primitive ages. Religion didn't start in 1998 so that the prophets may sell their DVDs to the believers doing miracles. Come on guy this is just asking for extremities.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
Its human history, its human experience that we must agree upon. Just how you believe that Ceaser was once emperor of Rome so must you believe that Jesus walked on water on the basis of Common Era written history. Just how people documented that Alexander the great Conquered India, same way people wrote down the miracles of the prophets in Holy books. If you believe one thing yet disregard the other than what if i Say that Cease didn't exist and that instead of Ceaser it was the flying spaghetti monster that ruled ROME! Come on! You can't possibly ask for proof in those primitive ages. Religion didn't start in 1998 so that the prophets may sell their DVDs to the believers doing miracles. Come on guy this is just asking for extremities.
True, but the accounts of Caesar and Alexander have been recorded by numerous sources who have no agenda. Religious stories are recorded by one source, the religious themselves, and have a very notable agenda. There is a clear distinction here.
And keep in mind that there are many aspects of Abrahamic religions that are found in other, older, religions. The son of God, the flood myth etc are stories from older religions. Besides, if religious stories are true then I would like to know the answer to the following question: how did Noah find a kangaroo? They live in Australia and someone from the Middle East couldn't possibly have know about them. Yet, religious scriptures claim that every single animal was aboard the ark.
And believing in the biographies of Caesar or Alexander do not affect my world views. Believing in a religion greatly affects how I treat others. It's a much more serious decision.
Please keep in mind that my aim is not to turn anyone into an atheist. I just have doubts and like I mentioned, I don't know. I wish more people would ask questions instead of being satisfied with poetic verbal gymnastics.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
Please keep in mind that my aim is not to turn anyone into an atheist. I just have doubts and like I mentioned, I don't know. I wish more people would ask questions instead of being satisfied with poetic verbal gymnastics.
Absolutely. I don't know why some people are offended that atheists are being questioned. Have people not scrutinized Islam and religion in general on this forum? That doesn't mean they're trying to turn everyone else away from religion. People are having a good (controversional/intense but good and interesting) discussion in this thread, they aren't trying to bring atheists back to religion either so I hope they don't feel targeted when in fact plenty of people have already appreciated and thanked them for their willingness to answer questions.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
True, but the accounts of Caesar and Alexander have been recorded by numerous sources who have no agenda. Religious stories are recorded by one source, the religious themselves, and have a very notable agenda. There is a clear distinction here.
And keep in mind that there are many aspects of Abrahamic religions that are found in other, older, religions. The son of God, the flood myth etc are stories from older religions. Besides, if religious stories are true then I would like to know the answer to the following question: how did Noah find a kangaroo? They live in Australia and someone from the Middle East couldn't possibly have know about them. Yet, religious scriptures claim that every single animal was aboard the ark.
And believing in the biographies of Caesar or Alexander do not affect my world views. Believing in a religion greatly affects how I treat others. It's a much more serious decision.
Please keep in mind that my aim is not to turn anyone into an atheist. I just have doubts and like I mentioned, I don't know. I wish more people would ask questions instead of being satisfied with poetic verbal gymnastics.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that he didn't? We live in a universe which is incredibly complex and when you study science you discover what brilliant machinery is in use. Why can't we believe that the creator who created all of which we see now, the brilliant machinations and the creation is able to give the ability to his creation to do things that may not make sense to us but yet they happened nonetheless? The stories which you mentioned of the Sumerian texts and various other cultures that mention the Flood all over the world only strengthen my belief that these events did occur and they were in the memories of the people long ago.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
Why is it so hard for you to believe that he didn't? We live in a universe which is incredibly complex and when you study science you discover what brilliant machinery is in use. Why can't we believe that the creator who created all of which we see now, the brilliant machinations and the creation is able to give the ability to his creation to do things that may not make sense to us but yet they happened nonetheless? The stories which you mentioned of the Sumerian texts and various other cultures that mention the Flood all over the world only strengthen my belief that these events did occur and they were in the memories of the people long ago.
I never said I don't believe in a creator of sorts. I agree with you that there is elegance in the physical nature of our universe. But I'm skeptical of religion. It's too political and I think it was created with the right intention, to improve the lives of simple minded people, but it's been skewed by those very people. The better educated and rational never relied solely on religion. They always have an element of independent thought - they think for themselves to some extent.
In short, I believe in a higher power, or creator of some sort but I fear that religion is a man made concept meant to make it easy for everyone to be spiritual.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
I never said I don't believe in a creator of sorts. I agree with you that there is elegance in the physical nature of our universe. But I'm skeptical of religion. It's too political and I think it was created with the right intention, to improve the lives of simple minded people, but it's been skewed by those very people. The better educated and rational never relied solely on religion. They always have an element of independent thought - they think for themselves to some extent.
In short, I believe in a higher power, or creator of some sort but I fear that religion is a man made concept meant to make it easy for everyone to be spiritual.
It was an attempt to get the Pagan man from his pagan beliefs and it worked brilliantly. But whoever hijacked it did it with the intentions that Man can never be "Good" in this world. You must agree that there is an Evil influence in this world which exists in every race of man. You can't pick out only the negative aspects of religion and throw it out of the door all together you must thoroughly inspect and then understand the subtle meanings. People have skewed it to suit their own agenda. Religion of Islam is still as it as in the holy Book as it was 1400 years ago. I think we can learn from the experiences of others, isn't that what learning and uplifting ones self is all about? There have been many religions created by many men to suit their needs and life styles. In my opinion Islam is perhaps one of the few religions that projects a universal image to its followers. But even Islam is not free from reformation and many sects abide in it. But that's not the fault of Islam or God. You're right to blame the people but one way or another we do need religion.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
Why is it so hard for you to believe that he didn't?
because these things are illegal according to nature. a human foot in our gravity will always break the waters' threshold. the laws of physics say, no they insist, that jesus was either a liar, or people who wrote about him were. i have an open mind. if dr. jebus appeared today and walked around on paani, i will start repeating the kalma and will be the most extremist ... err devout muslim in the universe. you betcha.
buss itni si baat hai dost.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
Again, you haven't explained why prophets believed in the teachings. A cynic might say that the prophets made up the teachings as they went along. I find it convenient that God's teachings are only ever revealed to one man.
And you should question any teachings that tell you to take a certain view on things. For example, if you are a Muslim or Christian, you automatically have to regard gays as sinners. They could be the most charitable people you've ever met, but the belief system you hold to be true tells you how you must view them.
It's not arrogance to question. It's encouraged. And if questioning is not encouraged, then religion is nothing but a cult. If I am a certain way, then according to religion, God made me this way. I'm not disrespecting anyone, but following a belief system that defines your view on many issues on life is a big step, and if this belief system is better than one I can reason for myself, then I need some proof or reason to follow.
I have a problem with this view: "you must open your heart". So you have to make yourself believe? How do you know what you "feel" is real? Children know there is a monster under their bed. Schizophrenics *know *that the world is out to get them. Just because it's a reality in your head does not mean it's real.
Rationalists don't doubt religion because they're materialistic, they doubt religion because there is no proof. Religious stories themselves speak of miracles that convinced the original believers and yet, all these miracles just happened to have occurred a long time ago so we just have to believe (without proof!) that they happened.
All these minor nitpicks about religion are basically all about why you believe in religion. The fact is there is no proof. We must perform philosophical and verbal gymnastics to make arguments about why religion is true.
And I don't even care if people believe in a religion. It's when religion dominates their life and their views on the world, and they are not open minded enough to even try to see other arguments, that religion causes problems.
Peace Ghost14
The reason why some people have been favoured above others is for God to Know and do as He Wills. The prophets were chosen to be prophets and they believed because Allah (SWT) gave them tawfiq to believe, but also because they were looking with the right apparatus ... they were the best humans in conduct and they were searching for Him.
A cynic who would say that the prophet made up the teachings would have to demonstrate by which mechanism the teachings were made up ... In the Qur'an it basically asks others to try to make up something similar to the Qur'an ... the cynics would be unable to do that ... no authority other than God could know with such surety that humans cannot bring fabricated verses like it.
The Qur'an was not revealed in secret to one man ... he would receive wahi (revelation) in front of others and they saw it happen and they listened to him (SAW) recite. When Jibreel (AS) came in the form of a man not only did the prophet Muhammad (SAW) see him, but so did his companions.
The sin of the homosexual is his sodomy - so long as he does this then his charity does not affect this misdeed - abomination. And there is no reason to question everything ... especially if it makes sense and the heart can submit to it ... I don't think you question everything then why ask others of the same? It is not arrogance to question, but there two types of question, one is to seek sincere guidance and understanding and the other is to find reason to doubt, although that reason may be suitable to the doubter it is not reason enough for the true authority. Those who think their own reason is better than the authority i.e. God then they are being arrogant.
You said according to religion "God made me this way" - Actually according to religion if say that then we are being proud and arrogant ... Satan said to God when he did not bow to Adam's form "Since You have caused me to fall" - Iblis (Satan) blamed God ... when Adam sinned he could have blamed God, but he sought forgiveness ... therein is the lesson from religion. What calamities would have been prevented in this world had people simply said ... "sorry".
I don't see why you have a problem with "make yourself believe" - it is a process of iteration with belief, take an initial step and seek validation for it in your heart and move a step closer and closer until surety sets in ... Each time you are validating ... this is what we do in science - do we not make an hypothesis and test it and then modify the hypothesis when it needs refining? Even in maths when we don't know the answer, but we know the means to get to it, we just start at an arbitrary number and within a few steps we know where we are going.
There are a branch of people who believe in Islam called the rationalists - mutazilah ... although they are not orthodox Sunnis, however their existence proves that not all rationalists accept 100% proof and nothing else ... Rather my point is if they are being truly reasonable then they will conclude that certain things we can know for sure, and hence know they are true or false, but other things we either don't know yet or can never know and the truth or falsehood in them is equally obscure ... and unreasonable person will reject the possible truths that are outside his vicinity of direct access, but not outside the boundaries of his proximity to that knowledge. Often tangible things that we can prove are attached to things intangible - giving them support for their truth ... For example - tangible truth is that Muhammad (SAW) never lied, always truthful, very humble, very caring and charitable, most beautiful, most wise and strong and noble ... family of the sons of Abraham ... then to have the mark of prophethood between his shoulder blades, unlettered yet Qur'an of unmatched language level and quality, year of his birth and the sequence of events that led up to it and so on ... his prophecies and fulfilments and then his claim that Qur'an is not even his - it is the Word of God ... the claims that an Arab an enemy of the Jews would say that the best woman in history was Maryam (AS) a Jewess ... taking over a city - Makkah without bloodshed. We can't be unreasonable and suggest for a moment that the Qur'an is not the Word of God is a man like that says it is ... We are inclined to believe him.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
I would like to know what you learned from it.
My interpretation would not do justice to McPendo - post 117. But I will try humbly - since that post was really deep.
Batin - is one's inner self. A person who does not look deep within oneself knows very little about his batin - the only thing he knows is to eat when hungry, shout when angry etc. But once you start looking within yourself (this can take different paths - some may do this through Allah, some through Ram, some through just spirituality and meditation), you may find more about yourself, where you belong in this universe, your role, and your purpose.
Zahir is your outer self - just physical characteristics. We tend to put too much emphasis on this - at the expense of getting in touch with our batin. The Gita I think also preaches something similar - dont be too enamored with outer beauty - be beautiful on the inside.
If I were to capture the post in 2 words - know thyself.
My sincere apologies to McPendo if I am off base.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
because these things are illegal according to nature. a human foot in our gravity will always break the waters' threshold. the laws of physics say, no they insist, that jesus was either a liar, or people who wrote about him were. i have an open mind. if dr. jebus appeared today and walked around on paani, i will start repeating the kalma and will be the most extremist ... err devout muslim in the universe. you betcha.
buss itni si baat hai dost.
Jaisey Kehtey hain, Lakeer Ka Fakeer. Yeah follow the Media dude, you'll have PHD in TV soon "Jeebus" what invidiousness!
Re: Questions for desi atheists
My interpretation would not do justice to McPendo - post 117. But I will try humbly - since that post was really deep.
Batin - is one's inner self. A person who does not look deep within oneself knows very little about his batin - the only thing he knows is to eat when hungry, shout when angry etc. But once you start looking within yourself (this can take different paths - some may do this through Allah, some through Ram, some through just spirituality and meditation), you may find more about yourself, where you belong in this universe, your role, and your purpose.
Zahir is your outer self - just physical characteristics. We tend to put too much emphasis on this - at the expense of getting in touch with our batin. The Gita I think also preaches something similar - dont be too enamored with outer beauty - be beautiful on the inside.
If I were to capture the post in 2 words - know thyself.
My sincere apologies to McPendo if I am off base.
I would say you are the person who understood it fully. Religion seeks to preach this message but it does so in a way that the layman would understand and so that he may not shun it completely. We humans also have attributes akin to that of the Animals. We eat, sleep, love, hate. But there is also an underlying aspect of humanity that if we don't explore we wont find out are true existence. And this is a deep rooted philosophy which exist in Islam and also Sufism. The only way towards the ultimate truth is through our batin. Thanks for appreciating the post Southie.
Ibn Arabi the greatest Philosopher and scientist in my eyes says* "I was once awoken by a great pain in my stomach. I stood up and saw that a fox jumped out of my stomach and stood before me. I was compelled to kick it until it became a rabbit, i kicked it again until it was a small rat and kept kicking it till it was no more."* This states that Ibn Arabi has learned to defeat his Zahir and the the things which decieve him in the material world. He now is free to ponder the mysteries of this existence without bias.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
Jaisey Kehtey hain, Lakeer Ka Fakeer. Yeah follow the Media dude, you'll have PHD in TV soon "Jeebus" what invidiousness!
i have no idea what that meant. i was just saying man. mr hazrats mohamed and jesus' miracles have never been replicated because well, they aren't real. it's lunacy to assume that, from a rational pov.
Re: Questions for desi atheists
I liked the Ibn Arabi anecdote also :)
Re: Questions for desi atheists
Nor-e-Khuda hai kufar ki harkat pe khandazan
Phonkon se yeh chiragh byjhaiya na jaey ga:p
ya
Ju chup rahy gi zaban-e-khanjra …