^ widows, PA??
About the permission, u dont need it but then that was back then when women expected their husbands to have many wives cuz before Islam, they had no limit...now its different u dont marry someone thinking they will marry someone else...plus, a religion that teaches us to be kind to even strangers, CANT allow us to hurt our own spouses, but then again Allah knows best
hmmm well i’m thinking around Orphans.. the whole “be fair with Orphans” bit is central to this verse.. the “marry” bit is secondary and a solution to the concern that we may not be fair..
So could it be that the women we’re allowed to marry are widows who are the mothers of these orphans???
Unlikely though cuz the more we read the verse in context the more it becomes clear that there has to be some logic to the sequence of these events..
How can u be fair to an orphan by marrying four other women? 
You become a step father for those who have lost their natural fathers. I believe the verse is referring to the case of marrying widows.
yes skhan.. as i said earlier that's one of the possibilities.. but what it's not is a carte blanche to marry willy nilly.. therefore polygamy in Islam comes with this explicit conditions surrounding Orphans.. not like the Arab Sheikhs practice it.
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*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
yes skhan.. as i said earlier that's one of the possibilities.. but what it's not is a carte blanche to marry willy nilly.. therefore polygamy in Islam comes with this explicit conditions surrounding Orphans.. not like the Arab Sheikhs practice it.
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Agreed, polygamy has very strict conditions, and shouldn't be taken lightly. Personally, I have no idea why men would even want to put themselves through it if it's not absolutely necessary.
okay..lets use some common sense here..it says all the wives gotta be happy right??????? right. so if ur gonna go plan to marry another....and ur all like..omg..i can get married again..and i don't even have to ask her!! muahahahah. right..but if she's like me..and she goes crazy..and shes angry..and shes CLEARLY unhappy..how are you doing justice to her? she's GOTTA BE happy and satisfied with your decision..otherwise ur not doing justice to her. so when a person asks..oh..u were planning to marry again nah? and ur like..yeah..its not like my wife can forbid me..but im supposed to look out for her well being and her mental health..and if she's very unhappy with my decision..there's no need me to do something like that...which is only in my best interest. see..doesn't that make sense? i mean.. ur not treating ANYONE equally like ur supposed to..if the whole household is gonna be unhappy..because you made your first wife VERY unhappy and very distressed..which ur not supposed to do in the first place. now..if there's like a war going on..and theres a shortage of guys out there..and then if u did..and u knew u had it justified..then inshAllah..ur wife will be happy with that..or atleast not complain..because she shud understand the circumstances. otherwise..c'mon..theres no way ur getting away with that. (but i know people do)
just because a wife is unhappy doesnt make is haram to get another wife. there was jealousy between the wifes of rasul :saw:, so what he :saw: ‘unjust’??? and no women will ever be happy about sharing her husband not even in war, so according to your theory, it will never be justified…
and even now there are so many women who are not married especially in pakistan and i think if ppl started marying more than one their problems would be saved. in pakistan if u have a daughter its like living on burning coals cuz the “larkay walay” can basically run over ur bodies with their demands and if u say no, they can always find other ones.
the problem there is 'jahez' or other such cultural practices.. 'Polygamy' isn't the answer.. social justice is..
As it states.. the verse is pretty clear about polygamy or something related only permissible when dealing with ORPHANS.
P.S. please keep references of the Prophet out of it.. he had special privileges given to him by Allah .. we cannot compare his multiple marriages with ordinary Muslims.
Well, i was gonna reply to your earlier post but you more or less backtracked out of the whole widows things so little point…
So according to you, the verse means:
“And if you fear that you cannot act justly towards orphans, go ahead and marry two and three and four female orphans…”
???
excellent!!
as i said i don't profess to have all the answers but I see that i was successful at least in making you see it with an open mind and try to tackle it with logic.
So we see that in this context.. making sure we are fair with orphans is the predominant concern.
What's left is for all of us to understand how the next part of the verse fits in with this theme..
I've come across an alternate interpretation where they were discussing the 'marry' as being 'marry off' .. which would mean "marry the orphans off" in twos, threes or fours.. which would then come around to NO POLYGAMY at all in Islam!!!!!
wallah-o-alam.
Well, actually, i prefer to look at it by taking recourse, where possible, to the reason behind a verse's revelation... the Qur'an wasn't revealed in a vacuum and this usually helps...
'Urwa bin Az-Zubair asked 'Aisha regarding the verse:
"If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls..." (4:3)
She said, "O son of my sister! An orphan girl used to be under the care of a guardian with whom she shared property. Her guardian, being attracted by her wealth and beauty, would intend to marry her without giving her a just dowry. So such guardians were forbidden to do that unless they did justice to their female wards and gave them the highest dowry their peers might get. (Otherwise) They were ordered to marry women of their choice other than those orphan girls."
Al Bukhari 6:98 (other references in Tafsir al Tabari and al Suyuti's Dur al Manthur)
Kind of conclusive i think.
According to you, we are admitting in the first part of the verse to not being able to act fairly towards these female orphans and yet Allah tells us to marry them anyway! Does that make sense? And the fact that the verse switches from talking about orphans (al-yatama) to women in general (al-nisa) is significant, otherwise there was nothing preventing the term orphans being used throughout. So the ones we are instructed to marry are "other" "women".
thandy what i mean is that..all the wives have to be treated equally? how do u go on doing that..if the very first one is feeling shes not being treated equally..and she never could? like she's mentally feeling unhappy..the Prophetssaws wives may have had their differences..but none of them outright objected to his marriage ventures. im talking bout a wife who states she will be simply torn inside because it. her husband needs to take that into consideration..he should always consider his wife's feelings..especially with something has big as this. in islam, men are taught to be kind to their wife..to consider her feelings..to be gentle with her..not to make her feel like crap because of his own selfish desires and lust. some women don't mind it..especially in the time of the prophet..when wars were going on..and many women were left orphan..and these women understood why their husbands needed to take on other wives..it was their duty almost. but today, i don't see a need..most men just wanna do it because of their lust for other women..and they see they are allowed to without consent..they just do it without caring for their wifes feeling..and she ends up going along with it..what other choice besides divorce does she have? doing this is an outright insult to the wife. the women who came to the Prophet saws were women with many problems in their lives..women of all races and religious backgrounds. Also another plus point was that he could financially support all of them equally. equality doesn't necessary mean wealth..providing the same wealth for all of them..but u shud also be providing the same love for all of them..and how is that possible? is it even? no its not.
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*Originally posted by Razea: *
..especially in the time of the prophet..when wars were going on..and many women were left orphan..and these women understood why their husbands needed to take on other wives..it was their duty almost. but today, i don't see a need
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so are you saying there are no wars going on and no women are "orphan" but u probably meant widowed. so there are no orphans widows and no wars? i would like to visit the planet you are living in.
if u see a 27 year old widow with 2 children to support and who has no family to protect her. can you not sacrifice and let your husband marry her to provide her with some support and to raise her 2 kids? or it is just too much to ask? i dont get why is it just so awful for them to accept that sometimes even now men have legitimate reasons to marry more than once.
Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama: I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don't give permission, i don't give permission, i don't give permission, except if Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me."
Al Bukhari 7:157
So if the first wife dislikes the husband marrying again, the issue shouldn't be forced. What benefit is there in gaining one wife, but at the same timing losing another?
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Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama: I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don't give permission, and will not give permission unless 'Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because Fatima is a part of my body, **and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me*."
Al Bukhari 7:157
So if the first wife dislikes the husband marrying again, the issue shouldn't be forced. What benefit is there in gaining one wife, but at the same timing losing the first?
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but now days almost all women do not want their husbands to have polygamy, then how can a man take second wife if he intends to provide shelter for some deserving lady by legaly marying her?
you are more knowledably than me mashallah and thus may be you can direct to what is the best approach to this issue.
^ The best approach to this issue is to keep your dick inside you shalwar and help the needy people without feeling a need to have sex with them. Stupid people, stupid customs. What went on in 7th century Arabia doesn’t apply to today’s world.
^ hey, just because you can't get anyone to marry you... that dating agency for retards let you down again?
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*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *
but now days almost all women do not want their husbands to have polygamy, then how can a man take second wife if he intends to provide shelter for some deserving lady by legaly marying her?
you are more knowledably than me mashallah and thus may be you can direct to what is the best approach to this issue.
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Marrying more than one wife is optional, it is not obligatory. Some women don't mind their husbands taking more than one wife; some do mind. That's reality and it is not asking too much for husbands to take into account the feelings of their first wife. Is it? What kind of marriage is it where the husband couldn't care less how his first wife feels? ("It's her problem, i'm doing something halal, if she can't live with it then tough. She's obviously not the 'good' Muslima i thought she was"!!!) If a husband wants to retain the option of marrying again there's nothing stopping him from discussing this at the outset with his prospective first wife (and every other wife thereafter). If she doesn't want him marrying again then he can either concede or not marry her and go for someone else instead.
Allah knows best.
jazakallah.
i think its also society wise too, i heard that arab women do not mind as much that their husbands take another wife.