Question to all

[Paaga_nsaan]

Dear Islamabad:

All six ahadees you have mentioned, mention the decsent (Nazool) of Son of Mary. If descent means to physically come down from the sky, then Kindly explain the following verses of the Koran:

1- "Allah has, indeed, sent down (anzala) to you a Reminder - A Messenger, who recites unto you the clear Signs of Allah..."(65:10,11)
- Does that mean Prophet Mohammad also came down from the Sky?

2- "WE have indeed sent down (anzalna) to you raiment to cover you nakedness and to be a means of adornment..." (7:26)
- Has anybody seen pants and shirts falling down from the sky?

3- "WE sent down (anzalna) iron, wherein is material for violent warfare and diverse uses for mankind..." (57:25)
- Does iron come down from the sky, or is it mined?

4- "HE has sent down (anzala) for you of the cattle eight pairs.." (39:6)
- Did anyone see cows and buffalos climbing down from the sky?

Dear Islamabad, if the same word used for jesus means physically coming down from the sky, then why should it not mean the same in other instances? Jesus can come down with the help of angels, but what rope was extended down for cattle?

[Lajawab]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Paaga| |nsaan: *
Dear Islamabad:

All six ahadees you have mentioned, mention the decsent (Nazool) of Son of Mary. If descent means to physically come down from the sky, then Kindly explain the following verses of the Koran:

1- "Allah has, indeed, sent down (anzala) to you a Reminder - A Messenger, who recites unto you the clear Signs of Allah..."(65:10,11)
- Does that mean Prophet Mohammad also came down from the Sky?

2- "WE have indeed sent down (anzalna) to you raiment to cover you nakedness and to be a means of adornment..." (7:26)
- Has anybody seen pants and shirts falling down from the sky?

3- "WE sent down (anzalna) iron, wherein is material for violent warfare and diverse uses for mankind..." (57:25)
- Does iron come down from the sky, or is it mined?

4- "HE has sent down (anzala) for you of the cattle eight pairs.." (39:6)
- Did anyone see cows and buffalos climbing down from the sky?

Dear Islamabad, if the same word used for jesus means physically coming down from the sky, then why should it not mean the same in other instances? Jesus can come down with the help of angels, but what rope was extended down for cattle?
[/QUOTE]

Remember Man-e-Salwa? Maybe like that...

[armughal]

and i thought u had something intelligent to ask

whats it with u ahmedis???

[Islamabad]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Paaga| |nsaan: *
Dear Islamabad:

All six ahadees you have mentioned, mention the decsent (Nazool) of Son of Mary. If descent means to physically come down from the sky, then Kindly explain the following verses of the Koran:

3- "WE sent down (anzalna) iron, wherein is material for violent warfare and diverse uses for mankind..." (57:25)
- Does iron come down from the sky, or is it mined?
[/QUOTE]

Mr. Pagal, my exams are going on and i am quite busy. However I will inshaAllah try to answer your questions. As far as # 3 is concerned, yes iron has been thrown from the sky! This fact mentioned in the Quran has been proven scientifically today. Iron did come to earth millions of years ago as meteors. It is not from withing the earth!

[fatehahmad]

Mr. Islamabad,

And this is also a scientific fact that Iron doesn't need oxygen to breath and can travel through space in form of meteors and what are meteors, broken part of other heavenly bodies. So showering of meteors doesn't collide with the laws made by Allah.

But what about Jesus. He was a human and just like other human need oxygen. Either he has to travel in a space capsule in order to come to this earth or have to go opposite of the laws of Allah.

[ahmadjee]

And also explain if you believe that along with those meteors were some cattle too. As according to Surah Al-Zumar, verse 6, the words used are:

'waanzala lakum mina al-anAAami'

"And He has sent down eight head of cattle in pairs."

[zakiahmed]

Re: Re: Question to all

*Originally posted by smooth_guy: *

1. He will come with the same body and spirit as he had when he was born in the world. Allah lifted him in heavens and he will send him back with the same body, same age and same spirit as Jesus is Alive not dead. Allah is Qadir-e-Mutlaq and he can do whatever he wants…its just a matter of Kun-Faya-Kun.

Here are references from Quran about death:

44: 36. `There is only one death for us, and we shall not be raised up again,

3: 186. Every soul shall taste of death. And you shall be paid in full your rewards only on the Day of Resurrection.

29: 58. Every soul shall taste of death; then to US shall you all be brought back.

56: 61. WE have ordained death for all of you; and WE cannot be hindered,

I wonder why any of these verses don’t go along with Jesus. He never tasted death and still alive in heavens after 2003 years and yet you believe, he will come back and don’t know how long will he live after that…

All I am wondering is, if Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is the best amongst the prophets and Khatam-un_Nabiyyeen, wouldn’t it be better for the people that Allah sends him again instead of an old Israel’s prophet to cure mankind? Our beloved prophet died and Jesus still alive! my mind doesn’t believe that… this is what i call ‘Blasphemy’

2. Those who have Imaan in their hearts will recognize him instantly. Others (who Allah swt wants to give hidaayah) will come to him due to his preaching.

Very true! and one more thing. Allah in all of Quran, if you read it carefully suggests rewards for believers and punishments for non-believers. Nowhere has he suggested a reward for non-believer.

Following are among the very few versus where disbeliever’s rewards are mentioned:

2: 25. But if you do it not - and never shall you do it - then guard against the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for the disbelievers.

2: 40. But they who will disbelieve and treat Our signs as lies, these shall be the inmates of the Fire; herein shall they abide.

2: 42. And believe in what I have sent which fulfils that which is with you, and be not the first to disbelieve therein, and barter not MY Signs for a paltry price, and take protection in ME alone.

2: 90. And when there came to them a book from ALLAH, fulfilling that which is with them - and before that they have prayed for victory over the disbelievers - yet when there came to them that which they knew to be the truth, they rejected it. The curse of ALLAH be on the disbelievers.

So, I would suggest, be among the believers… If a prophet comes, as is mentioned in Quran, don’t be the first to disbelieve him…

3. Killing swines and breaking the cross doesn’t literally mean that he will do it all by his own hands…as its clear that he will have followers…so it will be done globally by himself and his jamaa’t. Inshallah.

So, here you literally mean that he will come and kill the swines and destroy the corsses? I wonder where’s your intellect. Just think logically, a prophet of God comes in which whole of mankind is waiting for, and what does he do? Goes out and start killing the swines? and takes his followers along him to kill the swines?

Allah has said in Quran that I’ve created Gin-o-Ins for worship. Where does he say that killing swines is a very important path to recieve blessings of Allah?

4. He :as: is Nabi…he was granted nabuwat before Prophet Mohammed :saw: so the khatimun nabeen status of our Prophet is as bright as its in the Quran. Doesn’t matter if he comes as Nabi or an Ummati…his nabowat is older than Mohammed :saw:. However I heard from most people that he will be an ummati since he requested Allah to be an ummati of the Great Last Prophet :saw: about whom all the messengers have been told since Adam
   As it is in the hadith that he will perform Fajr prayers with Muslims on his comeback, it shows that he will be a follower of Shariyat-e-Mohammedi

Here I would to quote few verses of Quran:

3: 56. Remember the time when ALLAH said’ `O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to ME shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.

if you look at the logic of Quran in the above verse. Its so perfect. First it says, I will cause you to die (Tawaffa’). Then it says, I will raise thee to myself (Rafa’) (if you take it literally, then tell me where is Allah, on the seventh heaven? means if he’s on the seventh heaven, he is not here in earth? so if Jesus moved towards God, means from where he was, there was no God? … then it says, Allah will give rewards to believers UNTIL THE DAY OF RESURRECTION, where does it say, before the day of resurrection, Jesus will come back to earth to cure the people? TELL ME WHERE?

5: 117. And when ALLAH will say, O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods beside ALLAH ?’ he will answer, `Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone WHO art the Knower of all hidden things;

In this verse, if same Jesus were to come again, this wouldn’t be hidden from him that christains took him and his mother as ‘gods’. Then why does Quran say ‘Thou alone WHO art the Knower of all hidden things’?

5. ‘Was sent to Isrealites’ not ‘will be’. So he is to wrap up the game…so ofcourse he will come back from the whole Ummah (including Muslims, Jews, Christianity, Hindus, Budhists, Athiests etc etc).

Reference please. No where in Quran or Hadith is it mentioned what you are suggesting. On the other hand Quran says:

61: 7. And call to mind when Jesus, son of Mary, said, `O children of Israel, surely, I am ALLAH’s Messenger unto you, fulfilling that which is before me of the prophecies of the Torah, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad. And when he came to them with clear proofs, they said, this is manifest sorcery.’

If he were to come for all mankind later on, its completely contradictory to above mentioned verse. It says ‘fulfilling that which is before me of the prophecies of the Torah’, doesn’t say that Holy Quran would also be revealed to me… or does it?

6. I don’t know what triggers … Its not difficult for Allah to teach Quran to a person in a millisecond.

wama aleina illal balaagh

Its funny naa… it would take a millisecond to teach Quran to Jesus, yet it took 23 years for Allah to reveal Quran on Muhamman (SAW) who is the perfect of all the prophets. I wonder how can you absorb such beliefs. I wonder how…

Finally I would like quote these verses from Quran:

2: 7. Those who have disbelieved - it being alike to them whether thou warn them or warn them not - they will not believe.

2: 8. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes is a covering; and for them is a grievous chastisement.

May Allah guides to the right path and saves you from amongst who disbelieve. Ameen!

[hiccup]

Re: Re: Re: Question to all

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *

Here are references from Quran about death:

44: 36. `There is only one death for us, and we shall not be raised up again,

3: 186. Every soul shall taste of death. And you shall be paid in full your rewards only on the Day of Resurrection.

29: 58. Every soul shall taste of death; then to US shall you all be brought back.

56: 61. WE have ordained death for all of you; and WE cannot be hindered,

I wonder why any of these verses don't go along with Jesus. He never tasted death and still alive in heavens after 2003 years and yet you believe, he will come back and don't know how long will he live after that...

All I am wondering is, if Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is the best amongst the prophets and Khatam-un_Nabiyyeen, wouldn't it be better for the people that Allah sends him again instead of an old Israel's prophet to cure mankind? Our beloved prophet died and Jesus still alive! my mind doesn't believe that... this is what i call 'Blasphemy'

Very true! and one more thing. Allah in all of Quran, if you read it carefully suggests rewards for believers and punishments for non-believers. Nowhere has he suggested a reward for non-believer.

Following are among the very few versus where disbeliever's rewards are mentioned:

2: 25. But if you do it not - and never shall you do it - then guard against the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for the disbelievers.

2: 40. But they who will disbelieve and treat Our signs as lies, these shall be the inmates of the Fire; herein shall they abide.

2: 42. And believe in what I have sent which fulfils that which is with you, and be not the first to disbelieve therein, and barter not MY Signs for a paltry price, and take protection in ME alone.

2: 90. And when there came to them a book from ALLAH, fulfilling that which is with them - and before that they have prayed for victory over the disbelievers - yet when there came to them that which they knew to be the truth, they rejected it. The curse of ALLAH be on the disbelievers.

So, I would suggest, be among the believers... If a prophet comes, as is mentioned in Quran, don't be the first to disbelieve him...

So, here you literally mean that he will come and kill the swines and destroy the corsses? I wonder where's your intellect. Just think logically, a prophet of God comes in which whole of mankind is waiting for, and what does he do? Goes out and start killing the swines? and takes his followers along him to kill the swines?

Allah has said in Quran that I've created Gin-o-Ins for worship. Where does he say that killing swines is a very important path to recieve blessings of Allah?

Here I would to quote few verses of Quran:

3: 56. Remember the time when ALLAH said' `O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to ME shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.

if you look at the logic of Quran in the above verse. Its so perfect. First it says, I will cause you to die (Tawaffa'). Then it says, I will raise thee to myself (Rafa') (if you take it literally, then tell me where is Allah, on the seventh heaven? means if he's on the seventh heaven, he is not here in earth? so if Jesus moved towards God, means from where he was, there was no God? ... then it says, Allah will give rewards to believers UNTIL THE DAY OF RESURRECTION, where does it say, before the day of resurrection, Jesus will come back to earth to cure the people? TELL ME WHERE?

5: 117. And when ALLAH will say, O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men,Take me and my mother for two gods beside ALLAH ?' he will answer, `Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone WHO art the Knower of all hidden things;

In this verse, if same Jesus were to come again, this wouldn't be hidden from him that christains took him and his mother as 'gods'. Then why does Quran say 'Thou alone WHO art the Knower of all hidden things'?

Reference please. No where in Quran or Hadith is it mentioned what you are suggesting. On the other hand Quran says:

61: 7. And call to mind when Jesus, son of Mary, said, `O children of Israel, surely, I am ALLAH's Messenger unto you, fulfilling that which is before me of the prophecies of the Torah, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad. And when he came to them with clear proofs, they said, this is manifest sorcery.'

If he were to come for all mankind later on, its completely contradictory to above mentioned verse. It says 'fulfilling that which is before me of the prophecies of the Torah', doesn't say that Holy Quran would also be revealed to me... or does it?

Its funny naa... it would take a millisecond to teach Quran to Jesus, yet it took 23 years for Allah to reveal Quran on Muhamman (SAW) who is the perfect of all the prophets. I wonder how can you absorb such beliefs. I wonder how...

Finally I would like quote these verses from Quran:

2: 7. Those who have disbelieved - it being alike to them whether thou warn them or warn them not - they will not believe.

2: 8. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes is a covering; and for them is a grievous chastisement.

May Allah guides to the right path and saves you from amongst who disbelieve. Ameen!
[/QUOTE]

I really was going to go through your post and disect every little mistake, but I can't be bothered right now. You type way too much rubbish, Just keep in mind that if you are going to question logic then please insure you have a brain cell or two handy, in case you actually need to think.

[zakiahmed]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Question to all

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hiccup: *
I really was going to go through your post and disect every little mistake, but I can't be bothered right now. You type way too much rubbish, Just keep in mind that if you are going to question logic then please insure you have a brain cell or two handy, in case you actually need to think.
[/QUOTE]

Quoting Quran/Hadith in support of my views is rubbish? And proving the superiority of Hadhrat Muhammad (SAW) over Jesus, is this rubbish? I am not sure about you but I can't call it rubbish...

For you following Quranic verses are enough:

2: 14. And when it is said to them, Believe as other people have believed,' they say,Shall we believe as the fools have believed ?' Remember ! it is surely they that are the fools, but they do not know.

2: 19. They are deaf, dumb and blind; so they will not return.

[hiccup]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question to all

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *

Quoting Quran/Hadith in support of my views is rubbish? And proving the superiority of Hadhrat Muhammad (SAW) over Jesus, is this rubbish? I am not sure about you but I can't call it rubbish...
[/QUOTE]

No, that is the point, you actually couldn't tell what you were saying. Your reasoning was all wrong. However now I thank you for clarifying.

[zakiahmed]

*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
http://www.jesuswillreturn.com/

Massih Mo’ud/Imam Mehdi (AS) has come and Jesus of Israel (AS) that you are waiting for has lived through the curcifiction and later on traveled to find the lost tribes of Israel and died in India (A NATURAL DEATH):

For truth follow the link:

Jesus In India

[zakiahmed]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question to all

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hiccup: *

No, that is the point, you actually couldn't tell what you were saying. Your reasoning was all wrong. However now I thank you for clarifying.
[/QUOTE]

Please describe how my reasoning was wrong... just by stating one sentence doesn't make me wrong. As I've said, I supported my reasoning through Quran/Hadith. Now, go on and prove it wrong, would you?

[hiccup]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
But what if He wants?! Do you think He is Qadar-e-Mutlaq?

You are wanishing a running breathing man in God knows where for 2000 years and making him come back God knows how, and I have to accept you because you say Allah is Qadir-e-Mutlaq. But when I say Allah is Qadir-e-Mutlaq and he sent down a prophet, like he did 124000 times ... you say no He is not?!

Laholwalaqwata illa billa! Toba hay miaN! Astagfar!
[/QUOTE]

OK, let me get this right, you say that we have to believe you that Allah tallah brought ANNOTHER prophet, as he happened to change his mind after he wrote the koran? And you know this to be the case because it is written in which devine scriptures??? O I remember...it isnt in any, because this particular prophet was created on a whim rather than have a set of prophises to tell of his arrival. In fact, this prophet goes against all in the koran, but I understand, its ok for this to happen, as God is all-powerful......

BTW, don't rely too heavily on the laws of physics, its mostly bull, so defying a load of rubbish will not take much doing. Apparantly, grvity is not all that after all.....
And the media have created god, written and already preached the large majority of the sermons, time and time again, the markets way too saturated there.
My dear, Hazrat Issa was "vanished" to the heavens. Im guessing it'll be nice there.

[Degas]

As a muslim I dont care anything after Prophet Muhammad .. as his message was complete and everlasting.. Mirza had to make Jesus die as at that time he was aspiring for Imama Mahdi and with Jesus's return he had no chance .. but later on he claimed as prophet too!

Mosdt interesting thing is that he sent Maulana Noor to Kashmir with a mission to fing jesus grave and he found it!!! Do u agree Mirza claimed he had 3 million miracles? so why he sent Noor sahib to get that info..

[ahmadjee]

Degas yar, don't talk when you don't know the facts.

Mirza Sahib proclaimed that the truth about Jesus (as) escape from death on the cross & migration to Kashmir was told to him in a kashaf (a spiritual dream if you don't know what it means). He sent Hazrat Noor-ud-din to find the grave in Kashmir, which he did to a pin point preciseness and also collected all the research work regarding that site from local historians along with old Buddhist scripture. Later on all the work was published, namely in Mirza Sahib's book, "Maseeh Hindustan maiN"

[zakiahmed]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hiccup: *

OK, let me get this right, you say that we have to believe you that Allah tallah brought ANNOTHER prophet, as he happened to change his mind after he wrote the koran? And you know this to be the case because it is written in which devine scriptures???

[/QUOTE]

As we both believe Quran's words are perfect.

So, when Allah knew that there is a need for prophet at the later times when muslims again go corrupt and will be just like jews, then why did he called prophet Muhammad "Khatam-un-Nabiyyeen"? This verse doesn't make sense if you take meaning of "Khatam" as "Last of the Prophets". However, if you take it as 'Seal of the Prophets' meaning the perfect of the prophets, everythings get so cleared.

And where would you put this verse if there is no "Nabi" to come after Muhammad (SAW):

4: 70. And whoso obeys ALLAH and this Messenger shall be among those on whom ALLAH has bestowed HIS blessings - the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And an excellent company are they.

4: 71. This grace is from Allah, and Allah suffices as One Who is All-Knowing.

Why has Allah mentioned "Prophets" in this verse. Why? If there were no prophets to come after Muhammad (SAW).

The truth is, our Holy Prophet (SAW) is so perfect that by following and obeying his teachings his followers can attain the rewards for not only the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous, but also can be "Prophets" as Allah gives rewards to whoever HE wishes.

[Degas]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
Degas yar, don't talk when you don't know the facts.

Mirza Sahib proclaimed that the truth about Jesus (as) escape from death on the cross & migration to Kashmir was told to him in a kashaf (a spiritual dream if you don't know what it means). He sent Hazrat Noor-ud-din to find the grave in Kashmir, which he did to a pin point preciseness and also collected all the research work regarding that site from local historians along with old Buddhist scripture. Later on all the work was published, namely in Mirza Sahib's book, "Maseeh Hindustan maiN"
[/QUOTE]

seems Mirza knows more facts than anybody in the universe! why didnt Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) knew this great secret! why didnt he (PBUH) told the whole world that Jesus escaped and lived in India for so long.. Jesus is mentioned by name in 25 places in the Quran .. but this indian escape is not mentioned anywhere..

[zakiahmed]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *

seems Mirza knows more facts than anybody in the universe! why didnt Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) knew this great secret! why didnt he (PBUH) told the whole world that Jesus escaped and lived in India for so long.. Jesus is mentioned by name in 25 places in the Quran .. but this indian escape is not mentioned anywhere..
[/QUOTE]

Because at that time none of the muslims had this superficial belief that Jesus is still alive. Instead on the demise of Hadhrat Muhammad (SAW), Hadhrat Abu bakar recited this same verse from Holy Quran:

3: 145. And Muhammad is but a messenger. Verily all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he dies or is slain, will you turn back on your heels ? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm ALLAH at all. And ALLAH will certainly reward the grateful.

And no one from the followers of Muhammad(SAW) stood up and claimed that Jesus is still alive....

And if Jesus is still alive, this verse becomes false... what would you pick:

Jesus is still alive VS Quran is perfect.

I tell you what I would chose. I would chose Quran's perfect because it is said in Quran:

2: 3. This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,

How unwise would it be to believe Jesus is alive!

[ahmadjee]

bhai, khuda ki karnay khuda janay. Mujhay kyooN pochtay ho? I was just correcting your misunderstanding.

Another interesting thing you might wanna note is that even though a ton of Ahadiths talk about Hazrat Isa (as) Nazool, not even a single 'authentic' Hadiths talk about his bodily ascension to heaven!!

Anyway, what I don't understand is; why people consider a person vanishing in thin air "normal" & "believable" with no proof what so ever, nor any example of such an act in the past history of prophets, but when told that he was alive when removed from the cross (which is normal as many people have been reported to survive their crucifixion) and migrated (another very popular and normal habit of prophets), they can't seem to conceive.

[zakiahmed]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
bhai, khuda ki karnay khuda janay. Mujhay kyooN pochtay ho? I was just correcting your misunderstanding.

Another interesting thing you might wanna note is that even though a ton of Ahadiths talk about Hazrat Isa (as) Nazool, not even a single 'authentic' Hadiths talk about his bodily ascension to heaven!!

Anyway, what I don't understand is; why people consider a person vanishing in thin air "normal" & "believable" with no proof what so ever, nor any example of such an act in the past history of prophets, but when told that he was alive when removed from the cross (which is normal as many people have been reported to survive their crucifixion) and migrated (another very popular and normal habit of prophets), they can't seem to conceive.
[/QUOTE]

Because...

2: 19. They are deaf, dumb and blind; so they will not return.