Why r jatt-sikhs so extremely castist? I mean it’s not in the religion and they’ll say oh it’s from hinduism but hindus dont seem to be doing it that much. Mainly i’m speaking about non-indian countries and even jatt-sikkhs born in england, us, and canada show this caste pride. I mean i can understand sortof people that grew up in india but people that grew up elsewhere. Now that’s just screwed up. Imagine if i said brahmin pride. I might get shot jk but seriously that would be frowned upon like anything (well worse for brahmins than other castes for obvious reasons).
Sadly this jatt thing still exists in pakistani muslims.They also claim that its something from hinduism,not good blah blah blah.But when it comes to marrying their daughter/son to non-jatt, it becomes an Issue.
I hate this,but sadly i belong to a jatt family,and its IMPOSSIBLE arguing with jatt's.
When i ask my dad about this,he says jatt's owned lands and all other worked under em. like raieen,kammi etc.Its a mess.We shouldn't even go there,i mean come one,how can we say people who r born in jatt family are superior because of something their ancestors owned.Thats BS.
**Parde ilm hazaar kitaaba...kaddee apnai aap nu parya naee.." **BULLEY SHAH
Caste is OK. Casteism is bad.
you r right. Even quran says that Allah put us in tribes,so that we can indentify each other. But at the same time we are all equal.
Its good to be proud of what we are,but we shouldn’t make that an issue. Even the educated punjabies jatt’s differentiate between people on the basis of which family they r born itno.Its very sad,and un-islamic.But jatt-minded people don’t understand this.What is that same jatt was born into a kammi family,is that his fault?why should then he be treated diff…but again their is always an acceptions,like me
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
. Im jatti but i would not even teach such things to my kids.
May Allah guide us.Ameen
**Parde ilm hazaar kitaaba…kaddee apnai aap nu parya naee.." **BULLEY SHAH
Hold on whats this jatt racism. I am hearing it for the first time.
Jatts don't consider themselves a caste but a race.e.g. muslim, sikh and hindu jatts are from the same racial stock with lot of different sub-tribe names....same way we have Rajputs, Gujjars etc Although in the sub-continental mindset of castism, all these are considered castes for most practical purposes.
Nothing wrong in having a sense of your ethnic or racial identity as long as you don't trample on other people's identities and make fun of them.
What is wrong with being a proud Brahmin?
Masooma, why blame jatts for marrying within jatts? Almost all groups do the same..brahmins, arains, khatris,kumhars, nayees etc. Thats how social structure was as people lived in villages and small towns, almost static in population distribution with every group having a certain set of relationship with the others...now as people mingle with each other outside of that setup in cities and other countries, it is changing very fast.
Chann"a proud Punjabi,Jatt, Sikh, Majhail, American, Californian, Indian"Mahi:)
Im not blamming jatt's,but its a fact that majority of jatt's,no matter how educated they are,still beilieve in their superiority. There is nothing wrong in marrying within or oustide the caste, thats what "I" believe in.But common jatt chaudhries would consider it so bad that if someone marries a gujjar/gujjri(hehehehhe), araen/etc,they would never speak with that person again.I just think its wrong.Be proud of what you are,but never make it an issue.Judge people from what they as an individual are,and not from what family they r born into.Prefer a good person instead of prefering a jatt.You see what i mean?
well,as far as i know,there is less conflict between raj-puts and jatts. Both bairadries have no prob with each other. Right?
**Parde ilm hazaar kitaaba...kaddee apnai aap nu parya naee.." **BULLEY SHAH
well..marrying outside of caste or clan has been a big thing for most of the groups in the sub-continent...I mean Brahmins or rajput are not very well known for marrying with other people either...since boundaries were so etched in stone anyone who violated it was condemned..hukka paani band. Superiority complex or showing off that kind arrogance is wrong...unfortunately there is fine line between self pride and arrogance and most people don't know when they crossed it.
Also many others show the say arrogance that we are condemning jatts for...I am sure you have heard before how speakers of certain language are of so superior intellect or some brhamins will brag how education is in their blood etc...so when a jatt brags...oh I am so superior I can beat you up...thats not really bragging..I mean that like showing ones stupidity in public..right?
Masooma, so what clan of jatts is your family? BTW there are some clans shared by both Rajputs and Jatts..like Minhas, Tiwanas, Bhattis etc.
Channmahi Bhai, with apologies Jats are known for their Caste feelings with thier other great qualities ofcourse!!.
Rather notorious in fact.
I am not pointing fingers and saying Brahmins don't have it. WE certainly do.
But, it seems to me Jats do take it to that extra mile somewhat.
Atleast that's what I always felt and read about!!
finally a decent topic in Religion Forum. My opinion is, caste is outdated. Being a Jat might count in your pind but how does it translate in the wider world?
Isn't this Racism?
If it is, then is it allowed in Islam?
Because many Muslim families who belong to this caste, they still follow their respective traditions that affect other people. Are they then Muslims?
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
**Isn't this Racism?
If it is, then is it allowed in Islam?
Because many Muslim families who belong to this caste, they still follow their respective traditions that affect other people. Are they then Muslims?**
[/quote]
..what about Qurashis, umaayyaids, Zaidis, Abbasids etc. Islam never destroyed the social structure of people.. pre-Islamic tribal system continued so when other nations converted they retained thir castes and groups or tribe all over the world.. only thing which Islam destyroyed was the superiority aspect... so in sub-continent muslims have castes like jats, rajputs, arains (in Punjab) and others and if they marry within their castes there is no harm in it..
My observation is that the people who concentrate too much on a single identity of theirs are the most dangerous on earth. My definition of fundoo is whose whole thinking revolves around one of his identities while he ignores all other identities of his. I would say don't get carried with one aspect of your identity but carry all of them with you...more identities and groups you have to identify with..more power to you.
"only thing which Islam destyroyed was the superiority aspect"
Isn't this what we are concerned about? The superiority aspect?
Lets not forget that it is the superiority aspect that has destroyed powerful nations, in the past by The Will of Allah.
Lets not forget that it is the superiority aspect which was the sin of Satan.
This caste system that is practiced in the sub-continent is not according to the teachings of Islam. Its a custom of the Hindus and the Sikhs, and these castes in the Punjab boast about their castes and look down upon others. As if they were given an option to be born into their respective castes.
There are many things you find in these castes that are in conflict with the teachings of Islam, but those things have been practiced by their fore-fathers, they are unwilling to stop practicing those traditions. So, basically they are chosing parts from Islam that they can adopt and are dis-regarding those parts of Islam which are in conflict with their traditions. Giving top priority to their culture and traditions over Islam. Giving top priority to man-made laws over Allah's set of Laws. Isn't this SHIRK?
"and if they marry within their castes there is no harm in it.. "
But why is it harmful for them to marry outside their castes? with respect to their castes not Islam...
Why are their children abandoned, killed, etc if they want to marry someone outside their castes?
If every other group of people is not up to their standards, why do they live with us? Why don't they stay in their own villages? Why do they have to be a part of the Society, if every one other than them is not looked upon with dignity?
Why should their children be allowed to interact with other children who do not belong to their caste?
Why ruin the peace of other people who do not discriminate on the basis of race, color? In Islam we are brothers, but I don't see these people looking at others as their brothers.
Please do help me understand, how do you fit this in Islam.
[This message has been edited by Different (edited April 29, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
**"only thing which Islam destyroyed was the superiority aspect"
Isn't this what we are concerned about? The superiority aspect?
Lets not forget that it is the superiority aspect that has destroyed powerful nations, in the past by The Will of Allah.
Lets not forget that it is the superiority aspect which was the sin of Satan.
This caste system that is practiced in the sub-continent is not according to the teachings of Islam. Its a custom of the Hindus and the Sikhs, and these castes in the Punjab boast about their castes and look down upon others. As if they were given an option to be born into their respective castes.
There are many things you find in these castes that are in conflict with the teachings of Islam, but those things have been practiced by their fore-fathers, they are unwilling to stop practicing those traditions. So, basically they are chosing parts from Islam that they can adopt and are dis-regarding those parts of Islam which are in conflict with their traditions. Giving top priority to their culture and traditions over Islam. Giving top priority to man-made laws over Allah's set of Laws. Isn't this SHIRK? **
[/quote]
Have to take issue with you associating the caste system with sikhs. It is not and i repeat IS NOT a part of the religion as I said in my introductory message if u had bothered to read it. As far as associating with Hindus goes I really don't think the negative casteism as in treating people like crap cuz they r a lower caste is part of the Vedas or Gita. But I don't expect the vast majority of people to know that.
If it isn't related to the Sikh custom, why aren't the other Sikh's doing something to let everyone know that this is against the Teachings of the Sikh Religion, and is not at all related to Sikh Teachings.
We know that the fore fathers of Jatt's are Sikhs and that they have had this attitude since a very long time and not much has been done by the other Sikhs to change their attitude, and therefore it is widely accepted that it is a part of the Sikh Custom since nothing was done to put an end to it.
The same thing is now happening in Islam too, these people claim that they are Muslims and they do things that are in conflict with Islamic teachings, but the other Muslims are not doing anything about it. Its a weakness from our side that we, The Muslims who have been ordered to forbid Evil and Enjoin Good are sitting back and doing nothing when the Jatt's are spoiling the image of Islam. I think that allowing these people to practice their traditions or customs which are in conflict with Islamic Teachings after they've become Muslims should not be supported by The Muslims.
I apologise for relating it to the Sikh-Custom, but honestly this is widely accepted. And if this is not stopped by The Muslims of today, it will be considered as a Muslim Custom too, which infact already is being considered in the West, as a Muslim Tradition.
If the Jatt's are spoiling the image of Muslims and Sikhs too, then we should take this matter seriously, instead of ignoring them and letting them do whatever they feel like doing, and backing up their practices with Religions.
[This message has been edited by Different (edited March 26, 2002).]
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) said:
Pride is my cloak and greatness My robe, and he who competes with Me in respect of either of them I shall cast into Hell-fire.
It was related by Abu Dawud (also by Ibn Majah and Ahmad) with sound chains of authority. This Hadith also appears in Muslim in another version
On the authority of Abu Sa'id (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said:
Let not any one of you belittle himself. They said: O Messenger of Allah, how can any one of us belittle himself? He said: He finds a matter concerning Allah about which he should say something, and he does not say [it], so Allah (mighty and sublime be He) says to him on the Day of Resurrection: What prevented you from saying something about such-and-such and such-and-such? He say: [It was] out of fear of people. Then He says: Rather it is I whom you should more properly fear.
It was related by Ibn Majah with a sound chain of authorities.
199.If anyone of you sees something objectionable, he should change it with his hand, but if he cannot, he should change it with his tongue, and if he cannot he should do it in his heart, that being the weakest form of faith.(Muslim).(Sayings of Muhammad. by Prof. Ghazi Ahmad).
Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 43:
Volume 3, Book 43, Number 624:
Narrated Anas:
Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others."
And it is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter, that they should have any option in their decision 33:36
[quote]
Originally posted by Degas:
** ..what about Qurashis, umaayyaids, Zaidis, Abbasids etc. Islam never destroyed the social structure of people.. pre-Islamic tribal system continued so when other nations converted they retained thir castes and groups or tribe all over the world.. only thing which Islam destyroyed was the superiority aspect... so in sub-continent muslims have castes like jats, rajputs, arains (in Punjab) and others and if they marry within their castes there is no harm in it..
**
[/quote]
Quraish is the family of the prophet not a caste, his tribe's name was bani hashim. Zaidi, are the desecendats of hazrat Zaid, it is not a tribe or caste. Abbasids is the name of a Dynasty who were from the family of Hazrat Abbas the uncle of the the Prohet (saw. It is not a caste or tribe. Same goes for Omayyads who were also bani hashim but called themselves omayyad after Hazrat Abu sufyan's house. Very different things .
[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited April 10, 2002).]
Making lawful what Allah had decreed unlawful, and unlawful what Allah had made lawful.
It is a major shirk to believe that anybody besides Allah SWT has the right to make lawful what Allah had made unlawful or to make unlawful what Allah had made lawful, or to willingly and by choice bring suites to any court relying on any laws others than the shariah, believing this is permissable while Allah mentioned it as a major kufr saying: "They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah." (9:31) When Adee Ibnu Hatim heard this verse being recited by the Messenger of Allah SAW, he said; "But they were not worshipping them." The Prophet SAW said; "That's right but they (the monks) made lawful what Allah has forbidden, and they obeyed them (the monks), and (the monks) had forbidden what Allah has made lawful and they obeyed them, and that is their worship to them." (Muslim) Allah described those who associate others with Him as those who: "Forbid not that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth." (9:29) Allah also said: "Tell me, what provision Allah has sent down to you! And you have made of it lawful and unlawful. Say: Has Allah permitted you to do so, or do you invent a lie against Allah?" (10:59)
Hadhrat Sufyaan Ibn As'ad Khadrami (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that he heard Muhammad (peace be upon him) say: "Indeed it is an act of the greatest abuse of trust if you tell a Muslim brother something which is false while he believes that you are telling him the truth."
(Abu Dawud).
There are strong supporters of the "caste system" who have tried to justify that the "caste system" is permitted in Islam. Please stop using Islam to cover up your un-Islamic belief's, do not customize Islam to suit your needs!