[quote]
And the answer is….THERE IS NO ONE DENOMINATION THAT IS 100% CORRECT AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT. Funny, I thought I said that in ten different ways already
[/quote]
Dear Sir, did you even think about what you have just written? We are talking about a religion not a political party. To me, Religion is a way of life instructed by GOD AND God’s instructions has to be 100% correct. You just said, as I understood, that your own church is not even 100% correct. My dear friend, I would very respectfully request you to think about your believes again, why follow a faith which is not 100% correct.
And my question still stands unanswered fully or partially. By saying that no Christian Church is 100% correct, you have answered partially but do other Christians agree with your personal statements?
[quote]
There are NO denominations that is close to the full truth that will claim to be the only path in order to be saved. Those denominations slating others as leading people straight to hell, ALL are quite far from the full truth themselves – it is a sort of identification. Sure there are some sects that clearly are teaching doctrines that will lead their people to hell IF THEY BELIEVE OR ACT THEREUPON. All of these last sects normally claim to be the only true way.
[/quote]
Again, are these your personal believes or main stream Christians believe the same way?
[quote]
Yes, unfortunately they are altering interpretations and spreading lies. One example is a sect in South Africa that teach that no “non-white” person can be “saved”. They go as far as to even teach that these people are not human at all. They use the Bible to prove their points by misquoting and giving absolutely wrong interpretations to sections in the Bible. There is actually NO way you can reason with them as their leader according to them is infallible.
[/quote]
This is unfortunate, isn’t it?
And I am glad that after a long conversations at least there is a mention of one church (by name) which is preaching the wrong deeds.
[quote]
ANY Christian sect that believes/teach the following is absolutely wrong in their doctrines:
(a) grace is not enough in itself for salvation
(b) the saving grace is not for everyone (as per the sect mentioned above)
(c) a Christian can live as he pleases
(d) a Christian does not need to be of high moral standing
(e) Jesus Christ will not returning
(f) Jesus Christ is not God and Saviour
(g) Jesus Christ did not die in order for people to be saved
Above just a simple example FOR CHRISTIANS. Your believe/faith would not necessary agree with all of above, as you are not a Christian.
[/quote]
You are right, my believes do not match almost any of the above and I would not talk about believes at all because that would deviate the discussion away from the topic. But I am glad that I got some ideas and thinking that original Christianity is different than what is being taught in the some/most of the churches today or what is being practice by the main stream Christian in the present time is not the original Christianity. And I also got the Idea that no denomination of Christians is teaching 100% correct teachings of Isaa (AS).
The Gospels are read by all Christians in a manner that differ in version and translation. Not really anything major. The Catholic, Coptic, and Orthodox Churches are the closest to that which was written about in the Gospels. The area where Protestants deviate the most is in placing emphasis in parts of the Gospel not given priority by the others and vice versa. The beliefs and practices are still in effect.
Ibrahim says: Dear Tomasso, My God! What are you saying Tomasso? Are you being rational by saying such things?
First when there are different versions, ** it means the Gospel is NOT an ACCURATE or INTACT word from God that anyone can out their total trust in them**
Second by your above statement you will end up lying since, you only need to visit Ireland to know how serious the divisions ( catholic & protestant) are and what will happened when two sides do not see eye to eye on the same issue because of major differences in the interpretation of the Gospels.
Ibrahim says this is based on your understanding that they were closer to the beginning and NOT on what was available to them as scripture. For what is available to Christians today was not available to Christians in the past, since many things were only discovered at a later stage in time and the early Christians just compiled what they could some 300 years later after Christ was rescued from the hands of the Jews.
Ibrahim says: let me show you how wrong you are
A summary of the “ Some Arguments ” ** presented by John Biddle ( 1615 -1662 AD) in England.**
** He that is distinguished from GOD is not GOD. The Holy Spirit is distinguished from GOD therefore the Holy Spirit is not GOD.**
Biddle explained:- The major premise is quite clear in as much as if we say that the Holy Spirit is GOD and yet distinguished from GOD then it implies a contradiction. The minor premise that the Holy Spirit is distinguished from GOD is confirmed by the current scripture. The argument that the Holy Spirit is distinguished from GOD , if it is taken personally and not essentially is against all reason. First, it is impossible for any man to distinguish the person from the Essence of GOD and not to frame two beings or things in his mind. Consequently, he will be forced to the conclusion that there are two GOD’s. Secondly, if the person be distinguished from the Essence of GOD, the person would be some independent thing. Therefore , it would be either finite or infinite. If finite then GOD would be a finite thing, since, according to the church everything in GOD is GOD Himself. So, the conclusion is absurd.
If infinite then there will be two GOD’s which is more absurd then the former argument. Thirdly, to speak of GOD taken impersonally is ridiculous , as it is admitted by everyone that GOD is the Name of a person, WHO with absolute sovereignty rules over all…none but a person can rule over others, therefore to take otherwise than personally is to take HIM otherwise then HE is.
2)** HE that gave the Holy Spirit to the Israelites is JEHOVAH alone. Then the Holy Spirit is not JEHOVAH or GOD.**
** He that speakest not for himself is not GOD. The Holy Spirit speaks not for himself. Therefore He cannot be GOD. **
** He that is taught is not GOD, He that hears from another what he shall speak is taught. **
Christ speaks what he is told. The Holy Spirit is also taught. Therefore Christ and the Holy sprit is not GOD. for they obey the command’s of GOD.
Here Biddle quotes John 8:26, where Jesus says: “ Whatsoever I Have heard from HIM these things I speak.”
In John 16:14, Jesus says: “ GOD is HE that giveth all things to all”… ** He that receives from another cannot be GOD .**
** He that is sent by another is not GOD. The Holy Spirit and Christ was sent by GOD, so they cannot be GOD.**
** He that is not the giver of all things is not GOD.** He that is the gift of GOD is not the giver of all things. He that is the gift of GOD is himself given. The gift is in the power and at the disposal of the giver. ** It is therefore absurd to imagine that GOD can be in the power or at the disposal of another.**
Here Biddle quotes , Acts 17:25: “ GOD giveth to all , life, breath and all things”
** He that changes place is not GOD. The Holy Spirit changes place, therefore he is not GOD.**
Biddle explains this syllogism :- If GOD changes place then HE would cease to be where HE was before and begin to be where HE was not before, which is against HIS Omnipresence and HIS Deity. Therefore it was not GOD who came to Jesus but an Angel sustaining the Person in the Name of GOD.
In Romans 10:14 it reads :- “ How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard. He in whom men have not believed, yet were disciples.” ** He who is not believed in is not GOD. Men have not believed in the Holy Spirit, yet were disciples. Therefore the Holy Spirit is not GOD.**
** He that has a will , distinct in number from that of GOD is not GOD. ** The Holy Spirit has a will distinct in number from GOD. Therefore the Holy Spirit is not GOD.
Here Biddle quotes Romans: 8: 26-27: which reads:- “ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth…for we know not how to pray as we ought but the Spirit maketh intercession for us with groans unutterable…he maketh intercession for the saints according to the WILL of GOD.
** Biddle was persecuted by the Church and put in prison many times and he died in prison.** He was particularly amazed at the “Trinity” that the church had adopted without any scriptures saying so.
Ibrahim says : these are very rational arguments yet the catholic church practically killed him because of it. Thus the argument presented by the protestants are valid and not mere speculations as you seem to indicate.
Regards
Ibrahim
** when you have CLOUDS in your mind, tears will ROLL from your EYES **
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
* dear old man, you seem to be missing the point,
** the Word of God cannot have deviations , distortions, omissions, additions or revisions , when they do, it cannot be considered the word of God anymore.**
...did God corrected all these problems and had reestablished His word without a blemish? . *
[/quote]
Ibrahim,
Are you sure that you are not the ONE missing the point?
Because there are scores of inconsistencies & errors in the Quran.
And, did Allah leave as in a lurch by declaring in the Quran - virtually the same status for women ,kafirs, slaves, etc as in the Torah & Gospels, which are all - out of place ?
If you are trying to say that all other books are corrupted; let me assure you the hadeeths that you follow as quasi-quran is the most corrupt book of doctrines.
[quote]
Because there are scores of inconsistencies & errors in the Quran.
[/quote]
I think it's only because you have heard one side of the story. Let us know your source and I can try to explain the Qur'anic point of view.
[quote]
And, did Allah leave as in a lurch by declaring in the Quran - virtually the same status for women ,kafirs, slaves, etc as in the Torah & Gospels, which are all - out of place ?
[/quote]
I'm confused. Leaving the Torah and Gospel aside, please let me know what u mean by "virtualy the same status for women, kafirs and slaves etc" in the Qur'an.
[quote]
If you are trying to say that all other books are corrupted; let me assure you the hadeeths that you follow as quasi-quran is the most corrupt book of doctrines.
[/quote]
I'd agree with you there. No person in their right mind would believe that fluff.
[quote]
Originally posted by logical:
Are you sure that you are not the ONE missing the point?
Because there are scores of inconsistencies & errors in the Quran.
[/quote]
Dear Logical, change your SN, because they way you talked in the previous post is totally illogical. We are talking about Christianity not the Islam in this Thread. There are so many other threads and discussions going on about other faiths. If you are a christian, you should prove that the gospels/bibles are correct not corrupt? Your previous statement proves that you have nothing to prove that today’s gospels/bibles are not incorrect instead you are bashing and deviating the whole theme from its original issue. Stick to the topic and prove from the facts if today’s gospsls/bibles are trustworthy any more? Otherwise you are damaging the image of christianity only, nothing more....
[This message has been edited by Qaasim (edited February 14, 2002).]
We are talking about Christianity not the Islam in this Thread...Your previous statement proves that you have nothing to prove that today’s gospels/bibles are not incorrect instead you are bashing and deviating the whole theme from its original issue. Stick to the topic and prove from the facts if today’s gospsls/bibles are trustworthy any more? **
[/quote]
Stick to the point as in what?
That the bible & torah is corrupted but the quran!
I am sticking to the point and REJECT the assumptions beind made here:
I mean there are scores of errors & inconsistencies in the quran!
And, speaking of lurch - show me how the quran has not left us in a lurch by re-emphasizing the same guidance as in the torah, for women, kafirs, slaves, adultery, homos,etc ? Show me how the quran makes sense anymore?
Your hadeeths or sahihs are the epitome of corruptions & fabrications. And, as these corrupt hadeeths are the basis of your sunni madzab then what does that make your madzab?
So, you see - I am sticking to the point! Maybe, you should too and defend the above instead of calling me a christian and advising that I change my nick to illogical.
See, you are just a basher nothing more than that, if you had questions about Islam and Muslims, you could ask them in a different thread or discussion. This thread was only to discuss the Christianity…..
Instead of providing proves about the trueness of gospels/bibles, you are struggling with finding faults in others.
Is this the way christians prove they are on the right path?
Yes, Stick to the point and prove that gospels/bibles are not corrupt? Or they have not been changed from their originals.
Being a basher only hurts your christianity and makes you look like an angry basher, nothing more...
if you really want to serve your faith, learn some manners to talk.....otherwise you are telling the people out there how misdemeanor the christians are...........
You TRIED to prove, but did not succeed – period. There did exist a man called Jesus Christ, the Bible’s inaccuracies (according to you) is minor and does not affect the faith, the epistles are definitely part of the gospel.
Which I did not evade but discussed at length in this forum and are prepared to continue discussing. It might be that the answers are not to your liking and you wish to discontinue? That in any case is your problem, not mine.
I accept that you do not understand and belief in the “Tri-une/Trinity” idea as per the Christian faith because you are Muslim. Still does not change the Christian faith one inch as your word does not count much against what God tells us
No. You did not succeed to prove that any of these socalled inaccuracies change anything in the Christian faith. Your statement remains there as only your own personnal viewpoint - which you are entitled to.
Interesting Jesus Christ did indicate that he has NO problem in being worshipped!
Suddenly Jesus met them, “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshipped him Matt.28v9
Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him. Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.” Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshipped him. John.9v35-38
For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Correct, BUT the verse still stand and there is no problem in the interpretation for Christians, as we believe Jesus is one with God Almighty!
Still remain that Jesus Christ will judge! No difference in adding verse 30! Obviously Jesus will judge as how God Almighty wants it to be – as he is one with God Almighty.
Don’t become rediculous, dear Ibrahim! Nobody will be able to judge just because he believes. Jesus Christ will judge because he is the Son of God and one with God.
[quote]
This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.* Rom.2v16
[quote]
Your quote above, Ibrahim. Thanks for pointing out yet again that God will judge everyone at the end of times through Jesus Christ
Then and now yes, Ibrahim. But when he comes again, he will be quite different as per Rev.22v12 ”Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning ad the End.”
You surely hate that Jew, Paul of Tarsus, don’t you! Maybe because he is so logical in refuting all errors?
I have not been shown that my faith is based on errors by you. Actually everything thus far that you mentioned as errors, I proved from Scriptures to be errors on your side. I accept that you cling to your belief – now you will have to accept that I can’t move away from that which is more perfect (in my opinion) to something less (and I do not mean to be derogatory to any religion including Islam in stating this). Even taking the Bible away completely, how can I deny the part of God that is in me and communicating with me namely the Holy Spirit? You see, Ibrahim, I once long ago asked for God to leave me alone due to my own stupidity. What I received when he accepted me back is something I wish the whole world could have – even you.
Does not matter if it is the intact word of God as long as what is in them is true. Christians have the author with them in the form of the Holy Spirit to teach and guide them wherever there is errors/differences.
Oh, it is so easy to misinform! Ibrahim, dear man, EVERYTHING in the book called the Bible was used EXTENSIVELY in all the churches before the final compilation of the Bible, AS YOU KNOW! It was just decided to make a statement that no other scriptures will be added to what was genrally accepted as the teachings of the apostles because some people started to use books/letters that were dubious of origin. Interestingly, ALL in the Old Testament part of the Bible of today was proven correct as per the Dead Sea Scrolls found.
This thread was actually started by these people to generate a discussion about the Bible and Christianity. The topic is not whether any other religion is correct or not. If you wish to slate any other religion, please don’t do it here.
Ibrahim says Hi Old man, get real man! Your claim that you know a little bit more has no validity since you have chosen to evade rather then explore at the same time what you chose to BELIEF has nothing to do with what had been revealed from ancient times and as conveyed in the Bible too..
Thus what I see is a stubborn old man, not wanting to see the rational but trying to say he knows best. : )
Now I have no objections , as to what you chose to belief but if you want to discuss the issues you need to refute/counter me with scriptures anything less then that, amounts to evasion.
Ibrahim says: you mean you rejected them out of blind faith on your part and refused to discuss them, don’t you?
Ibrahim says: Now Old man how is that possible when Hebrew, Greek and Latin does not have the letter “J” ? So what we now have in the English Bible is a factitious character invented to deceive the ignorant into Christian belief but is not the TRUTH as existing !
Ibrahim says get real old man, what you are saying is that you have chosen to “belief” in Christianity even though it can be erroneous! That again has to do with blind faith and not the reality.
Let me give you a small illustration , concerning God and the holy spirit
** GOD: **
(a) GOD AS AN OMNIPOTENT BEING: "And Jesus saith . for with God ALL THINGS are possible MARK 10:27, also MATTHEW 19:26
Contradicted by. “And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain, but COULD NOT drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had Chariots OF IRON.” JUDGES 1:19
(b) GOD’S ANGER ABIDETH FOR A MINUTE: For his (God’s) anger endureth but a MOMENT." PSALMS 30:5 .
Contradicted by: " And the lord’s anger was kindled against Israel and he made them (the Jews) wander in the wilderness FORTY YEARS…" NUMBERS 32:13
(c) GOD DOES NOT SHOW ANY SELF-REPROACH: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man (Christ) , that he should repent . . .” NUMBERS 23:19
Contradicted by. " . . and the Lord REPENTED that he made Saul king over Israel " SAMUEL 15:35 Also: ; And the Lord REPENTED of the evil which he thought to do unto his people (Israel)" EXODUS 32:14
(d) GOD’S MERCY ENDURETH FOR EVER “For the Lord is good; and his mercy is Everlasting.” PSALMS 100:5
Contradicted by: "I (God) remember that which Amalek did to Israel (four hundred years before) . . . Now go and smite Amalek and UTTERLY DESTROY ALL they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass (the donkey) I SAMUEL 15:3
(e) GOD DWELLS IN LIGHT: " . . (God) dwelling in the LIGHT which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see . . " 1 TIMOTHY 6:16
Contradicted by: “Then spake Solomon, the Lord said that he would dwell in the Thick Darkness.” 1 Kings 8:12
(f) GOD DOES NOT ENTICE MAN: 'Let no man say he is tempted, I am TEMPTED of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTETH he any man" JAMES 1:13
Contradicted by: 'And it came to pass after these things, that God DID TEMPT Abraham . " GENESIS 22:1
Ibrahim says: Now you may have not comes across such contradictions as such you may believe as you chose but rational minds cannot accept such things
Now lets look at the Holy Spirit/Ghost.
** HOLY GHOST** :
Every sect and denomination of ** Christian cults claim the “Gift” of the HOLY GHOST.** This gift is so cheap that 75,000,000 “BORN AGAIN” Christians of America are also boasting this possession. (including Old man
(a) "and he (John the Baptist) shall be filled with the HOLY GHOST, even from his mother’s womb. LUKE 1:15
I have not yet been able to establish what this phrase means from his mother’s womb shall we say from the beginning of conception, John the Baptist had the Holy Ghost in him?
. . ." really Alas, poor ** Jesus (peace be upon him) had to mark time for THIRTY YEARS after his birth to obtain his gift of the HOLY GHOST on his baptism** at the hands of John the Baptist (MATTHEW 3:16).
Thus one has to wonder who is greater?
(b) " and Elizabeth was filled with the HOLY GHOST. LUKE 1:41
(c) “And his father Zacharias was filled with the HOLY GHOST . . .” LUKE 1:67
(d) “he (Jesus pbuh) breathed on them, and saith unto them, receive ye the HOLY GHOST.” JOHN 20:22
(e) “But he that shall blaspheme against the HOLY GHOST ° hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.” MARK 3:29.
Ibrahim say: YET, the Holy Spirit/Ghost was only to be sent after the removal of Christ according to
John 14: 26. But ** the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,** will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 16: 7. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away.** Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you;** but if I go, I will send him to you.
Ibrahim says Thus it is pure mockery on the part of Christians to claim that they have the Holy ghost guiding them when they cannot even get it straight as to which are inspired books in the Bible some say it is 66 other say it is 74, others 84 etc.
I would go nuts if any holy ghost from God deluded me in this manner but for old man it is alright because that is his wish
Ibrahim says : sure it is! wonder why, Matthew , Mark, Luke and John failed to notice them when they concocted their brew of the gospel texts according to themselves.
Hmm maybe they all hated Paul, maybe Paul failed to give them a share in the loot, which he was minting by selling faith to the gentiles tailor-made to suit them, just like the new bible is being tailored to suit the masses of today
Ibrahim says old man you may delude yourself as much as you want, but please don’t make me prove you a liar!
Ibrahim says Old man, I quoted the Bible extensively to prove that God did not convey such a notion. ( I even quoted another Christian (john Biddle) You snipped them all, just to utter the above, how low will go to keep your blind faith!
Ibrahim says : Old man , get real will ya? You need to refute the inaccuracies before you can claim they make differences in your faith, what you have chosen to do so far, is to snip them off and evade them, rather then discuss the issues being raised. That my friend is due to your blind faith not due to my lack of knowledge or lack of valid proofs that have been furnished over and over again in many threads so far.
Ibrahim says Old man get real will ya? ** My question was where did Christ or God proclaim he was God or son of God and he will replace God and Christ must be worshipped instead of God??**
Your below quotes are naïve at best, even today, people worship movies stars and singers, even every Hindu will clasp their parents feet and worship them, even every bride in Hinduism is ordered to clasp the feet of her husband and worship them, are you saying on account of such worship they are gods? Or others should now take them as a God?
Ibrahim says this is not worship, like one worships God! , this is devotion and respect shown to their teacher.
Ibrahim says : Old man how did he worship him?
Ibrahim says: Old man you do not seem to understand the translation worship as written in varying contexts in scriptures.
worship can mean:-
1 chiefly Brit : a person of importance — used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : ** reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power;** also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : ** extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem **
Ibrahim says the worship being given to Christ is, ** respect ** , since he was sent to save the Jews and not a religious practice with its creed and rituals based on him being the center of devotion.
Now the worship that is due to God involves prostration and that Christ himself practiced when he worshipped God.
Ibrahim says: Lets read!
Gen 6:2 the ** sons of God ** saw that the daughters of men were beautiful…
Ex 4:22…Then say to Pharaoh , This is what the LORD says.. ** Israel is my first born son.**
2 Sam 7:13-14.. He ( Solomon) is the one, who will build a house for my name and ** I will be his father and he will be my son**
1 Chron 22:10… He is the one who will build a house for my name , ** he will be my son and I will be his father**
Jer 31:9.. … Because I am Israel’s father and ** Ephraim is my first born son. **
( compare this to Ex 4:22 above and you can be rather confused…** who is the first born Israel or Eprahim ?** )
Deut 14:1…** you are the children of the LORD, your GOD.**
Mt. 5: 9… Blessed are the peace makers ** for they will be called sons of God.**
Ibrahim says ** So all man, are in doubt as to what God is conveying in the above verses or you are unaware of such verses or you, due to blind faith in Christianity will claim ONLY Christ was the son of God? **
Ibrahim says But the Bible denies such a unity and Christian belief is against what God had been conveying from ancient times in various scriptures.
Ibrahim says : Old man! That is naïve, since verse 30 tells us how he will be able to judge and in addition verse 31, tell us that his testimony is NOT VALID! When he talks about himself.
Ibrahim says Old man there will be 25 chiefs with God Almighty who will act as mediators for their respective flocks, not only Christ.
Lets Read!
Revelation 4: 4. Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Rev 4: 10. ** the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever.** They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
“You are worthy, ** our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will** they were created and have their being.”
Ibrahim says: The 24 elders are before the Qur’an was being revealed once the Qur’an has been revealed the throne has become 25 to accommodate the Final prophet.
Lets Read!
Revelation
5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book ** written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.**
5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, ** Who is worthy to open the book,** and to loose the seals thereof?
5:3 ** And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. **
Ibrahim says : This is the Qur’an which is sealed with the seven seals ( surah Al Fathiha) and starts from the back.
The surah Al fathiha has seven verses ( seven seals) and is the beginning to the Al–Qur’an
This is the Qur’an before being revealed , hence NO ONE WAS able to know it on earth or under earth. Thus even Christ ( who was already amongst the 24 elders) did not know its contents and neither was he able to read it until the creation of Mohammed
No one knew how to read this because this was yet to be revealed and the Final prophet was the only one who will preach this book to mankind. Thus he became the 25 chief to have a throne in the presence of God, and the seal of the rest of the prophets
The Qur’an only talks about 25 or more Prophets and messengers and Christ is one amongst them.
Ibrahim says after quoting all the verses you will still say this based on your whims and fancies?
Ibrahim says Old man , this reference is not to Christ but to God , so THINK old man, think when you read scripture.
Let me expose your misconception………..
Rev 22: 6. The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. ** The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.” **
** “Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.”**
so kindly be cautious as to what you read and what you misconceive and what you add into due to blind faith!
Rev 22: 8. I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, ** I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.**
But he said to me, ** “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”**
Ibrahim says GET IT OLD MAN!! Worship GOD, not Christ, the above passage you quote about alpha and omega is with regards to God’s coming and not to the return of Christ.
Ibrahim says old man don’t be naïve. Paul revealed his own falsehoods in his own writings , but you are unable to see them because you have established preconceived boundary markers and anything that does not fit into them are rejected without due consideration.
Now If you want to understand Paul, read your NT again and note what Paul is saying and you will understand his deceptions, which were designed to make money from the gentiles who were left without guidance as Christ concentrated on the Jews only .
Ibrahim says Old man, I am afraid you are mistaken, I have shown you that the Bible is corrupted, it is even being edited right this minute with newer versions and ** you have chosen to claim that the Holy ghost is guiding you without even knowing who is the Holy ghost,** so how can anyone argue with you when you talk about blind faith and I am talking about what is written in the Bible?
[quote]
Actually everything thus far that you mentioned as errors, I proved from Scriptures to be errors on your side.[/qyuote]
Ibrahim says ** can you show me where you have done this? And I will show you where you have evaded them
Ibrahim says; Tell me something old man! How do you know it is not the satan that is communicating with you?
Ibrahim says: If it is the blind faith that you are following whilst believing the holy ghost is talking to you, sorry old man, I would rather be amongst the true who will accept what is clear and reject what is based on misconceptions or untruth.
Regards
Ibrahim
** You have built castles in the AIR, now put some pillars to support them **
Ibrahim says: that is nice old man, good that you understand in life, it must be TRUE, failing which it should be rejected.
So now tell me old man, is it true that the Earth is FLAT? Which is what Christians and Hindus believed due to their scriptures for a long time in the past.
So you may wonder where in the Bible it says such absurd things?
Now I am sure you will agree God will not be making such absurd statements but man in his ignorance will end up believing as such and will record them as God’s words. Right?
Thus when you read
· I Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
· Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm…”
· Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable…”
· Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
· Isaiah 18: 3. All you people of the world, you who live on the earth, when a banner is raised on the mountains, you will see it, and when a trumpet sounds, you will hear it.
· Matthew 5: 14. "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
· Luke 4:5. The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
BY reading such verses in the Bible, One cannot just consider the Bible to be accurate let alone believe it was from God!
Most of all when we read the temptation of Jesus by Satan, in the Gospel …….
Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world (cosmos) in their glory.”
** Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. ** Even here it would be impossible as we all know those who have climbed mount Everest cannot even see what is directly below them due to cloud cover and if this mountain was in the middle east, I doubt you can see all the kingdoms from it even if the Earth was FLAT.
The same is true of ……..
Revelation 1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him…”
As we know , we can’t even agree to sighting the moon from one place to another, yet here is a statement made according to Christians based on FLAT Earth theory that every one will be able to see the coming of Christ
Thus I hope old man you will be able to establish that the Earth is NOT FLAT and that the verses in the OT and NT must be rejected due to ERROR on the part of scribes
In addition we can prove the Bible is false by noting that Noah’s Ark does not exist as per the Bible records on Mount Ararat ( since it had been searched till kingdom come with no trace whatsoever with the latest technology ) but exists in Mt Judi as per the Qur’an , through ancient records and westerners logs.
Ibrahim says I wonder why the Christians are still being deluded as to which are the inspired books in the Bible even though the Holy Spirit is present amongst Christians
Ibrahim says: Sure play the game after all, both of you have believed you have been saved and your sins forgiven by the death of another man (Christ) .
[quote]
Originally posted by A.Ibrahim:
*(i) "So now tell me old man, is it true that the Earth is FLAT? Which is what Christians and Hindus believed due to their scriptures for a long time in the past."
(ii)"Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. Even here it would be impossible as we all know those who have climbed mount Everest.."*
[/quote]
A.Ibrahim,
your ignorance is showing!
Tell me what does the Quran say about the Earth?
It says the Earth is Flat -
"rolled out like a carpet"
and mountains, like the Mt. Everest,
"are pegs holding down the Earth or the carpet".
A Saudi cleric even issued a Fatwa some ten years ago that the Earth is indeed flat.
[quote]
Mr. Ibrahim says: "Common sense always speaks too late"
[/quote]
You should know because Orthodox Islam is not based on common sense or AQL or Reason.
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
A.Ibrahim ??????
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Faceup my dear, if you cannot even get my name right, which appears CLEAR in all my posts, there is a slim chance you can get anything else right. I suggest you vent your frustrations elsewhere but if you want to learn about what the Qur’an says about the earth, start new thread and they will be many to educate you, which I doubt, would be of any benefit to you, since you try so hard to annoy others by just ranting and raving without much substance.
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
* ..there is a slim chance you can get anything else right. I suggest you vent your frustrations elsewhere but if you want to learn about what the Qur’an says about the earth, start new thread and they will be many to educate you, which I doubt, would be of any benefit to you...*
[/quote]
Dear A.Ibrahim,
If what you write is educational then that is precisely the reason for the sorry state of affairs of the muslims today. And, we deserve every bit of it!
Not only does the Quran call earth:
'Flat rolled our like a carpet and mountains are pegs holding down the carpet or the earth',
the quran calls the stars - lamps, sky - the shade, and the sun goes down to sleep everynight in muddy marshes.
For a literal follower of the scriptures the above should indeed be educational and of immense scientific value.
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
* wrong thread. *
[/quote]
I don't think so jose! You made comments re: belief of other religions that earth is Flat according to them;
well, their religions are much, much older than Islam and Islam has this belief very clearly stated in the quran that the Earth is Flat and a saudi clergy, only ten years ago, issued a fatwa that the earth is indeed flat.
And, this is not the only inconsistency in the quran as I have indicated above.
I cannot prevent you from presenting a 'glossed-up' account of islam but be prepared for rebuttals.