Question for Christians

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear Christian brethren,

{b] Which is your favorite Bible? **

I list below a partial list of the ** VERSIONS ** of the English Bible alone from which there are about 1400 other translations into other languages. Some 15 different translations in the Arabic language alone can be found in the middle east .

  1. AB Amplified Bible
  2. AS American Standard
  3. ANT The Authentic New Testament
  4. AAT An American Translation (Beck)
  5. AIV An Inclusive Version
  6. BNT Barclay New Testament
  7. CEV Contemporary English Version
  8. CNT Cassirer New Testament
  9. CTNT Centenary Translation of the New Testament
  10. CENT Common English New Testament
  11. CJB Complete Jewish Bible
  12. CLNT Concordant Literal New Testament
  13. CCB Christian Community Bible
  14. DHB Darby Holy Bible
  15. DRB Douay-Rheims Bible
  16. EDW The Emphatic Diaglott
  17. EVD English Version for the Deaf
  18. EBR The Emphasized Bible
  19. FSRB First Scofield Reference Bible
  20. GW God’s Word
  21. HBME The Holy Bible in Modern English
  22. HBRV Holy Bible, Revised Version
  23. IB Interlinear Bible
  24. IV Inspired Version
  25. KJV King James Version
  26. KLNT Kleist-Lilly New Testament
  27. KTC Knox Translation
  28. LB Living Bible
  29. LBP Lamsa Bible
  30. MCT McCord’s New Testament Translation
  31. MNT Moffat New Translation
  32. MRB Modern Reader’s Bible
  33. MSNT The Modern Speech New Testament
  34. NEB New English Bible
  35. NLV New Life Version
  36. NNT Noli New Testament
  37. NAB New American Bible
  38. NAS New American Standard Version
  39. NBV New Berkeley Version
  40. NCV New Century Version
  41. NET New Evangelical Translation
  42. NIV New International Version
  43. NJB New Jerusalem Bible
  44. NKJ New King James Version
  45. NLT New Living Translation
  46. NRS New Revised Standard Version
  47. NSNT Norlie’s Simplified New Testament
  48. NWT New World Translation
  49. PRS Phillips Revised Student Edition
  50. REB Revised English Bible
  51. RNT Riverside New Testament
  52. RSV Revised Standard Version
  53. RSVCE Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
  54. SE Simple English
  55. SGAT An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed)
  56. SARV Standard American Edition, Revised Version
  57. SNB Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible
  58. SSBE The Sacred Scriptures, Bethel Edition
  59. TBR The Bible Reader
  60. TDB The Dartmouth Bible
  61. TEV Today’s English Version
  62. TJB The Jerusalem Bible
  63. TCNT The Twentieth Century New Testament
  64. TM The Message
  65. TNOAB The New Oxford Annotated Bible
  66. TRDB The Reader’s Digest Bible
  67. THS The Holy Scriptures
  68. TSBB The Soncino Books of the Bible
  69. TCRB Thompson Chain-Reference Bible
  70. TWGAAHB The Word of God Alive and Active-Holy Bible
  71. WAS Worrell New Testament
  72. WTNT William Tindale Newe Testament
  73. WET Wuest Expanded Translation
  74. WNT Williams New Testament
  75. YLR Young’s Literal Translation, Revised Edition

** NOT A Complete List! **which is still growing as we speak! So what would be your choice and why?

All these versions in common use today, ** will appear imperfect ** still, when the fact is known that** it was not a translation from the original, but merely revisions of the versions then in use.**

The message Given by God to the Israelites reads……….

Proverbs 30:5-6

** "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. **

Jeremiah 8:8 .

"`How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” ** when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?**

Jeremiah 23:

  1. “Therefore,” declares the LORD, ** "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me.**

  2. Yes," declares the LORD, ** "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, `The LORD declares.’ **

  3. Indeed, ** I am against those who prophesy false dreams,"** declares the LORD.

Regards
Ibrahim

2

x. The Bible done in my mother tongue TRANSLATED from the Masoretic and Septuagint

Because it's in my mother tongue and being a word-perfect type of Bible

  1. NIV New International Version

Because it's non-denominational and being a word-perfect type of Bible

I will sometimes use some of the others, including some on above list.

3

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
x. The Bible done in my mother tongue TRANSLATED from the Masoretic and Septuagint

Because it's in my mother tongue and being a word-perfect type of Bible
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Thanks old man, what do you call this book? And when was it published and by whom?

[quote]
42. NIV New International Version Because it's non-denominational and being a word-perfect type of Bible
I will sometimes use some of the others, including some on above list.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: well, according to the bible soceity, you need to use at least 4 bibles to get some accuracy.

regards
Ibrahim

4

Ibrahim:

It's called "Die Bybel" translated in 1933 and revised in 1953.

Which bible society said that? It's nonsense to say it as you might be using 4 completely incorrect translations/versions. one good one is enough and then obviously it sometimes is nice comparing with other translations/versions.

My wife for example likes "The Amplified Bible", "The Living Bible", above home language Bible, a home language version of "The Living Bible" called "Die Lewende Bybel", and the KJV. Definitely does not make her a better Bible exponent than myself.

5

Ibrahim says: interesting! and this is according to you the only bible that is TRANSLATED from the Masoretic and Septuagint and being a word-perfect type of Bible ?

I am also wondering why a word perfect Bible need to be revised in 1953?

Since this is not in English, what is its closest equivalent in English or is this translated by the translators own understanding direct from Hebrew and Greek texts for OT and what did they use for NT?

Ibrahim says This are published works ( In 1989 in the News Paper) by the Philippine Bible society which prints most of the bibles for all denominations in the Philippines according to their requests. In other words If you like certain verses to disappear they will get it done and certain verse to read in a certain manner they will do that too

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Ibrahim says: You are not using your THINKING CAP old man!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

, you see translations are worded according to the translators understanding and choice of words and in order to get a firm understanding it is better to get a second opinion, this applies even in the medical field.

In religion , If one is only able to work on translations and cannot understand the original language, then it is advisable to have at least four translators works at your disposal . ( this is even applicable for the Qur’an ) to come to a better understanding of what is being conveyed by God for each verse, since each translator may use a different choice of words to come to what is being conveyed in the original .

That is why we can find many translations of the Qur’an or Bible and that is not a problem, the problem concerning the Bible has to do with ** versions **

I myself use 14 Bibles which includes Greek and Hebrew texts to compare certain verses that are being mistranslated or misconceived by Christians.

BTW what in your opinion is the one Good one? NIV?

Regards
Ibrahim

** Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. **

6

i would assume that translation is updated as the language evolves..

i dare not try to understand the version of bible which was used 400 years ago..

same way.. any translation into Urdu from last century would spin my head around...

The difference is that when we talk about Quran.. we say it is a translation of Quran - not english or urdu version of Quran - unlike when Bible is talked about.

Muslims make a point of not saying this version or that version.. as translations get updated when language evolves.. but as we have the original print.. we have the opportunity to do so.. for Bible.. no original blueprint exist... so they do their best..

7

Can I also ask one question to our christian fellows?
if yes, then
Can any one tell me, which one denomination of christians is right?

8

black zero: Till you brought it up, I had never even thought of this: where is the original print? I would like to go see it sometime. Is it in SaudiArabia, Iraq? Where is it housed?

9

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and to all

Here download it “free” that has been the ONLY orginal for the Qur’an no matter what time frame .

http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/products/nquran/thenoblequran.html

10

First there were Jews that followed Christ,
then there were Christians, then two Popes;
one in Rome, one in Constantinople. Before
that, there were heresies coming from the
city of Alexandria, Egypt. There was a dis-
pute between Avignon, France and Rome as to
leadership. Then came Martin Luther and the
schism of protestant sects. From there it
really eggshelled. The question of which is
"right" is a debate that would elicit the
defense of each denomination by each member.
Then some one like Ibrahim would come along
and throw his insight into the mix. He seems
capable of arguing correctness into Islam, no
easy feat, that. It seems each religion is
complex enough for their respective devotees
to sort through. Not all are capable of it.

11

Ibrahim: Thank you for that URL. What I was asking for was reference to the oldest copy of Quran Shrief that is in existence. I thought that was what Blackzero was referring to. What is the oldest copy in existence? I am sure you would know. Any references? I am sure somebody must have done carbon dating to obtain an exact date. I really would like to go see the first copy wherever it is.

[This message has been edited by OldLahori (edited February 04, 2002).]

12

QUOTE]Originally posted by OldLahori: What I was asking for was reference to the oldest copy of Quran Shrief that is in existence.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Greetings of peace to one and all

You must be kidding or you simply do not understand what the Qur’an is for. You see revelations were compiled into book form to be used and as you know when people use them they tend to wear out over a period of time and new ones are copied and they too will have the same fate and new one are copied etc etc.. As such when I asked you to download one that is the current copy from the original which came from caliph Uthman’s time

What Muslims will normally do is they will retire used ones to mosques, who will eventually destroy them or tuck them in some corner and one such mosque that had a hoard ( which NO one knew about since it was piled up to rot in between the roof and ceiling ) of such over used Qur’ans and lose parchments from ancient times , which have been written over or used again and again , was recently discovered in Yemen which has now been documented by United Nations and is actually sold on CD by UN. This discovery led the Christian missionaries to claim that the Qur’an had been altered at the beginning of year 2000 to start their crusade on Islam in the millennium . (try to check out Atlantic magazine on this attack on islam in Jan 2000)

As for Museum pieces which were kept by kings or dignitaries, which finally ended up in museums you can try ** Topkapi museum in Istanbul ** which keeps a copy from Caliph Uthman's time for show. Unfortunately Qur’an’s are not meant for show or to be kept like the Jews or Sikhs do, with their holy scriptures.

I believe all your questions are answered, I will try and get URL ( if possible) for you dating last find in Yemen, some of which was dated by them to Caliph Uthman’s time.

** Most of all , you are forgetting the fact that the Qur'an is also transfered by MEMORY. which is the first and formost method for revealed texts. **

Regards
Ibrahim

13

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

For those intrested in viewing the oldest copies of Qur’an

Click here for the photo: http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_1st_quran.htm
http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_topkapi.htm
http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_manuscripts.htm

The whole copy of Quranic manuscripts unearthed at Sanaa’ Yemen are available at UNESCO website http://www.unesco.org/webworld/mdm/visite/sanaa/en/present1.html

See Also, Quran still available, carbon tested and all, written during the times of the Prophet, as early as 7th century. AD http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/Ext/Koran.html

And now, answering all the needs for the history of Holy Quran:
http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_history.htm http://www.quran.org.uk/index.html#menu

For Free Qur’an and Qur’an for the Blind
http://www.geocities.com/zcdeen/islam005.htm

14

You mean to say the original is not available but only copies? The Qu’ran at use today can’t be checked with the original original book?

Talk about hypocrisy by some when discussing the originality of old Hebrew and Greek texts used for translating the Bible from…

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited February 05, 2002).]

15

[quote]
Originally posted by TOMASSO:
The question of which is "right" is a debate that would elicit the defense of each denomination by each member.
[/quote]

Correct, TOMASSO. Actually ALL denominations are in some way wrong, as the Body of Christ does not belong to any specific denomination.

ANY Christian denomination that claims to be the ONLY correct way to Jesus Christ, is definitely wrong. Normally the reason they give for being the only correct way, is the error in their doctrine.

16

Thank you Ibrahim. The Url’s appear to be great and I will go through those sites. I have usually used the following site for referring to Quran Shrief.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
It contains the translations of Pickett Hall,
Yusuf Ali’s and M. A. Shakirs with commentry by Maudoodi. What do you think?

Old Man: Here is a URL for you. http://www.doh.gov.uk/childinf.htm
Hopefully you can actually help in correcting some of the problems created by the complicity of the church in wrecking and creating havoc in the lives of thousands of children.

17

Hello Ibrahim:

THINKING CAP ?

Originally when looking for a image I thought it was a bald patch! Is that what it is, a “thinking cap”?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

you see translations are worded according to the translators understanding and choice of words

Correct. That’s why I like the NIV because more than one denomination were involved in doing the translation. Where any difference exist as to translation or original text, it is highlighted in a footnote. I can tell you that it is EXTREMELY difficult getting a vast number of scholars to agree on ALL points. You can be absolutely sure that no intended mistakes or interpretation could get through.

and in order to get a firm understanding it is better to get a second opinion

Sure, and no Christian will fault you on getting a second opinion. Bottom line though, ALL should be in harmony of the whole Bible no matter WHAT opinion you do get. Remember that the Bible is a DEAD piece of nothing if you do not have the Holy Spirit in you. Anyone can read it as a philosophical/poetic piece of literature.

to compare certain verses that are being mistranslated or misconceived by Christians.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

BTW what in your opinion is the one Good one? NIV?

I believe the NIV is presently the best with the ASV a very close second. There might be some small known Bible that might even surpass these Bibles that I do not know. If I say I know a Bible, I HAVE READ THE BOOK COVER TO COVER. I don’t use it as referral material seeking for any verse that will prove my point of view. ALL of the Bible must read in harmony.

the problem concerning the Bible has to do with versions

That is YOUR problem, Ibrahim

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

I have by now realized that you have a fixation on this version stuff. As long as each version comes closer to what God intended, I have NO problem. A mature Christian will take up ANY Bible, enjoy it even while he might realize that it might not be a good translation. A person brought up on Law, rules and regulations, has no choice but to NEED to find the ABSOLUTE ORIGINAL text. As Christians we have the AUTHOR living inside of us and communicating with us, who cares about versions, translations, etc!

18

OldLahori:

Thank you for the link.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Luckely I do not have to account for the actions of others. All I can do is in trying to prevent wrong actions to be taken NOW and in my sphere of influence. Hope you did not post in negativeness?

19

OLD MAN: NO. I saw a show on on PBS the other night. From your posting I thought you were a 'non-denominational' or a believing christian, and figured you might be motivated to do something about the tremendous injustice.

20

Ibrahim says: Greetings Of Peace to one and all

Dear Old man you seem to lack the wisdom to comprehend revelations and how they are revealed and compiled.

let me explain , so that you may understand If God so willed………

  1. A Prophet is chosen from the beginning by God and messages are relayed to him, ** directly via inspiration and via the Holy Spirit (Angel Gabriel)**

  2. This process normally** begin at the age of 40 and may continue till death** reaches that prophet, hence there is no fix periods for revelations or any messages dropping from the sky in a bundle.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

  1. These messages are recorded ** on what ever materials available** to them by that prophet or through scribes BUT most of all it is memorized and re-memorized by all the disciples and followers, as such, ** collation into book does not become a necessity** when the Prophet is alive and when revelation is still on going. .

  2. these goes on till that prophet has reached his decreed term as such a prophet who received the message will not be the one to compile that message as a whole and ** compilation of revelations are done by his direct disciples ** under Gods absolute will and power.

  3. Compilation begins when the disciples realize that their number is decreasing and the need to get all into book form arises. Once a message is compiled by collecting all those recorded materials and putting them into Book form** and destroying the lose recordings (originaly recorded items) it will be in its original revealed form and in the tongue** of the Prophet and not in any other language.

  4. these works are ** then copied and sent to various nations and tribes ** who will copy them and recopy them as per their requirements. ( any earlier recordings kept by individuals not in its entirety will be advised to be destroyed or collected and destroyed )

  5. this is the procedure for all revelations be it Veda , Bible or Qur’an

Now old man, in order to ascertain what is an original or not, ** it must exist as is from the beginning and in the revealed language ** . In the case of all the other scriptures except the Qur’an this is not the case and they were put together later on ( after the disciples and eyes witnesses had already passed away by someone who had NEVER met that Prophet ) in other languages or in the revealed language

Thus only the Qur’an seems to be INTACT , even now and its authenticity as the original, can be verified whereas the Bible Hebrew texts (OT) are only dated around 200 BC and the Gospel scripts (NT) at around 330 AD and is not in its original tongue.
So I hope you understand why the Bible manuscripts cannot be considered to be in its original form.

Ibrahim says: If you still cannot understand from the above, ask and you will get answers, God willing!