Question for Christians

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim says : Greetings of Peace to one and all

Originally when looking for a image I thought it was a bald patch! Is that what it is, a “thinking cap”?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Ibrahim says; Dear old man, it is not that bald patch I am refereeing to, it is that desire to avoid and evade mentality that the whisperer leads you into, by putting on the thinking cap you will be able to face the issues rather then avoid or evade

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

, which is for your own good !

You can be absolutely sure that no intended mistakes or interpretation could get through.

Ibrahim says: this is wishful thinking when it comes to the Bible. Firstly it does not have an intact original . The NT has 20,000 manuscripts but NO two are identical in every detail, most of them are bits and pieces of information which allow room for considerable doubt.

Bottom line though, ALL should be in harmony of the whole Bible no matter WHAT opinion you do get.

Ibrahim says: that is what I refuted at http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/004343.html and you evaded so much so I owe you a medal for evasions

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Remember that the Bible is a DEAD piece of nothing if you do not have the Holy Spirit in you. Anyone can read it as a philosophical/poetic piece of literature.

Ibrahim says: Every thing is a dead piece of nothing , If there is No Grace form God, but you seem to forget this commandments from God.

1. “Whatsoever thing I command you, observe to do it; ** and thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.”** Deuteronomy 12:32.

2. Proverbs 30:5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. ** Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. **

3. Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, ** but My words will by no means pass away. **

Ibrahim says: And the reason why the Bible has all these problems was conveyed even in the Bible

Jeremiah 8:8 . "`How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” ** when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? **

Ibrahim says: will you be able to stand in front of God and dispute that it had not been handled falsely, old man?

That is YOUR problem, Ibrahim

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

I have by now realized that you have a fixation on this version stuff. As long as each version comes closer to what God intended, I have NO problem.

Ibrahim says I know you don’t have a problem because you chose to believe that you have been saved even though God denies such things in the Bible itself.

My Problem is not in the versions either but in the way Christians are deceiving themselves into believing they have been saved by faith and altering the message to suit their purpose . ** Even this is not a major problem but when they kill others and oppress others based on their misconceptions that indeed becomes a problem for all. **

A mature Christian will take up ANY Bible, enjoy it even while he might realize that it might not be a good translation.

Ibrahim says: You mean a self deceiving soul will not be able to see and will not want to see?

A person brought up on Law, rules and regulations, has no choice but to NEED to find the ABSOLUTE ORIGINAL text.

Ibrahim says : Old man you are now denying your Christ and his teachings……..

Read what Christ preached……

Matthew 5: 17. ** "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. **

18. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, ** not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law ** until everything is accomplished.

19. ** Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, ** but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, ** you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.**

Ibrahim says The truth being you have chosen to follow Paul who taught what is currently practiced by Christians and even follow Mithra worship, since Christ did not do any of the rituals Christians practice in their churches.

As Christians we have the AUTHOR living inside of us and communicating with us, who cares about versions, translations, etc!

Ibrahim says; LOL! If you had the author living in you why would he mislead Christians into so many denominations and why would the Christians be unable to decide which are inspired books and which are not?

** Old man you are entitled to do what you like and do not feel I am pressurizing you or compelling you, I hope you are mature enough to understand that we are discussing the facts as is and I will not lie in order to be politically correct or please others.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

**

Regards
Ibrahim

** Common sense always speaks too late. **

[Ibrahim]

WELCOME TO THE HANDICRAFT OF THE ASCRIBES

VERSES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT PUT IN BRACKETS OR PARENTHESES PARTLY OR ENTIRELY ADOPTED OR REJECTED BY THE OTHER WRITERS OF THE BIBLE

a partial comparison…

Matthew 9:6

K.J.V. : “ But that ye may know that the son of man hat power on earth to give sin,** (then saith he the sick of the palsy,) ** Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.”

N.I.V. : “But so that you may know that the son of man has authority on each to forgive sin…” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”

N.R.S.V. : “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”-he then said to the paralytic-“Stand up, take your bed and go to your home.”

Matthew 9:10

K.J.V. : “And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.”

N.I.V. : “While Jesus was having dinner at ** Matthew’s house, ** many tax collectors and “sinners” came and eat with him and his disciples.”

L.V. : “ Later, as Jesus and his disciples were eating dinner ** [at Matthew’s house],** there were many notorious swindlers there as guests!”

N.R.S.V. : “ And as he sat at dinner in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting with him and his disciples.”

Matthew 10:2,3,4

K.J.V. : “2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; the first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican: James the son of Aphaeus, and Labbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.”

N.I.V.: “ These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon ** (who is called Peter) ** and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartolomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.”

L.B. : “ 2,3,4Here are the names of the twelve disciples: Simon ** (also called Peter), ** Andrew (Peter’s brother), James (Zebedee’s son), John (James’brother), Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew ( the tax collector), James (Alphaeus’ son), Thaddaeus, Simon (a member of “The Zealots,” a subversive political party), Judas Iscariot (the one who betrayed him).”

N.R.S.V. : “2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon, also known as Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartolomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed him.”

Matthew 23:35

K.J.V. : “ That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.”

N.I.V. : “ And so upon you will come all the righteous blood and has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood o Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.”

L.B. : “ so that you will become guilty of all the blood of murdered godly men from righteous Abel to Zechariah ** (son of Barachiah)** , slain by you in the temple between the altar and the sanctuary.”

N.R.S.V. : “ so that upon you come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom ye murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.”

Matthew 24:15

K.J.V. : “ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,** (whoso readeth, let him understand

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

” **

N.I.V. : “ So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel – let the reader understand.”

L.B. : “ So, when you see the hor r ible thing (told about by Daniel the prophet) standing in a holy place (note to the reader: YOU KNOW WHAT IS MEANT!).”

N.R.S.V. : “ So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand)

Matthew 27:33

K.J.V.: “And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of skull.”

N.I.V. : “ They came to a place called Golgotha** (which means the place of skull).”**

L.B. : “ Then they went out to an area known as Golgotha, that is “Skull Hill”.

N.R.S.V. : “ And when they came to a place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull).”

Mark 2:10

K.J.V. : “ But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,** (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)”**

N.I.V. : “ But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . .”He said to the paralytic,”

L.B. (verses from 9-11) “ Which is easier: to say to the paralytic,’your sins are forgiven,’ or to say,’ Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10but that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . .”He said to the paralytic, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

N.R.S.V. : “ But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” – he said to the paralytic—“

Mark 5:13

K.J.V. : “ And forth with Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, ** (they were about two thousand

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

** and were choked in the sea.”

N.I.V. : “ He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs; The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.”

L.B. : “ And Jesus gave them permission. Then the evil spirits came out of the man and entered the hogs, and the entire herd plunged down the steep hillside into the lake and drowned.”

N.R.S.V. : “ So he gave them permission. And the unclean spirits came out and entered the swine; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea.”

Mark 7:3-4

K.J.V. : " 3For the Pharisees, and all the Jews,except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not.”

N.I.V. : “ 3** (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.)” **

L.B. : “ 3(For the Jews, especially the Pharisees, will never eat until they have sprinkled their arms to the elbows,as required by their ancient traditions. 4So when they come home from the market they must always sprinkle themselves in this way before touching any food. This is but one of many examples of laws and regulations they have clung to for centuries, and still follow, such as their ceremony of cleansing for pots, pans and dishes.)”

N.R.S.V. : “ 3(For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands, thus observing the tradition of the elders; 4and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it, and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.)”

Ibrahim says: ** I hope all will get my point, this coupled with omission and additions is sufficient to prove that the Current Bible is the works of man and not an Intact revealed message from God. **

[rvikz]

ibrahim you should write a book how to grow
food in semi-arid regions something productive.

[OldLahori]

First of all, I don't believe that I am coming to the defense of Ibrahim. I won't go into why I find that incredible. Nevertheless, I think Ibrahim provides a very valuable service. One may view all this detail to be akin to counting how many angles on a pin, but the fact remains that for historical continuity and grounding in 'tradition' (I know Ibrahim doesn't like that word ), Muslims need to know and follow the Quran and the Sunnah. It is nice to be able to ask some one who not only knows the literature backwords but also gives you references so you can go check it out. And if it doesn't make sense, then atleast one can ask again. From the questions I have asked, it is clear that Ibrahim considers me pretty dumb, and frankly as far as knowing the Quran and Sunnah is concerned, I am. But I hope that maybe he will teach me more about Islam and maybe and just maybe I will rub off a little bit of my scepticism and scientific prejudice.

[This message has been edited by OldLahori (edited February 05, 2002).]

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim says : No matter how difficult the path some forge ahead; no matter how easy the going, some lag behind.

Little wonder Shallow persons believe in luck and cicumstances . Strong persons believe in cause and effect.

[Qaasim]

[quote]
Originally posted by OldLahori:
First of all, I don't believe that I am coming to the defense of Ibrahim. I won't go into why I find that incredible. Nevertheless, I think Ibrahim provides a very valuable service.
[/quote]

I agree with you:

I am still looking for an answer (from Christians) of my previously posted question in this thread. I shall repeat my question again:

Which school of thought among Christianity do you guys think is the right and would go to Heaven according to the Christianity?

[TOMASSO]

The question was addressed by me when I said the members of each denomination would defend the faith that they professed to be the "right" one and all that follows. The closest is the original and then the Orthodox creeds. The Protestants did point the way to where error occured. Martin Luther did not start out in his criticism to create what became almost another religion. Those who found themselves descending from Protestant parents are not as culpable. They are viewed as being eligable for salvation by the Catholic Church.

[Qaasim]

TOMASSO: Thanks for your kind answer, sorry to say that my question was not to find out how the different denominations think about themselves. IT is obvious that each sect would think they are nearer the reality. I was looking for the Particular ONE sect or school of thought among hundreds of christian denominations which is nearer the REALITY (rightness) and THAT ONE would definitely go to HEAVEN according to the christianity? Can you or any christian on this forum, please, tell me which ONE is that?
Thanks

[This message has been edited by Qaasim (edited February 10, 2002).]

[The_Old_Man]

[quote]
Originally posted by Qaasim:
I was looking for the Particular ONE sect or school of thought among hundreds of christian denominations which is nearer the REALITY (rightness) and **THAT ONE would definitely go to HEAVEN according to the christianity?**
[/quote]

My pardon for not posting past days but work dictates.

NO denomination or it's members have a clear way into "heaven". ANY Christian, NO MATTER THE DENOMINATION, that believe in some essentials and has made a commitment to God will go to "heaven"/"be saved". The emphasis is on "being reborn".

Unfortunately some denominations are teaching such doctrinal "wrongs", that all their members (believing these doctrines) will not be able to go to "heaven"/"be saved". The errors I refer to are those that exclude the "new-birth" and "sacrifice of Christ".

I am part of an extreme small minority of Christians that believe God "save" in three ways: Christ, Law, and Conscience.

[The_Old_Man]

Originally posted by Ibrahim:
**WELCOME TO THE HANDICRAFT OF THE ASCRIBES

VERSES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT PUT IN BRACKETS OR PARENTHESES PARTLY OR ENTIRELY ADOPTED OR REJECTED BY THE OTHER WRITERS OF THE BIBLE

a partial comparison…

Ibrahim says: I hope all will get my point, this coupled with omission and additions is sufficient to prove that the Current Bible is the works of man and not an Intact revealed message from God.**

Sorry, dear friend, but NONE of the quotations affect ANYTHING in Christian thought/religions. THEY ARE IRRELEVANT! Maybe you have some more with substance to them?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[Qaasim]

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
ANY Christian, NO MATTER THE DENOMINATION, that believe in some essentials and has made a commitment to God will go to "heaven"/"be saved". The emphasis is on "being reborn".
[/quote]

This thing raises so many other questions,
if all are going to be saved, then:
1 why do they (sects) differ from each other?
2 why small of big sects?
3 are these differences political or religious?
4 if every denomination is going to be saved then why did/do christians kill each other in the name of religion (a long history of christians fighting each other in the name of church or religion).
5 If every christain denomination is on the right path and every one is going to be saved then why the members from one church do not go for prayers/worships to other church which is not under their denomination?

I am not looking "For example" type of explanations, remember we are talking about christianity only, not the other religions.

Take care

[The_Old_Man]

[quote]
Originally posted by Qaasim:
if all are going to be saved, then:
1 why do they (sects) differ from each other?
2 why small of big sects?
3 are these differences political or religious?
4 if every denomination is going to be saved then why did/do christians kill each other in the name of religion (a long history of christians fighting each other in the name of church or religion).
5 If every christain denomination is on the right path and every one is going to be saved then why the members from one church do not go for prayers/worships to other church which is not under their denomination?
**
[/quote]

1. Who said "all are going to be saved"? Actually very few will be "saved".

2. Sects differ from one another due to many reasons. Some differences/issues are extremely large (virgin birth), some extremely small (what language to use).

3. Small/big sects? You serious?

4. Yes there sometimes are differences as to political issues.

5. "If every denomination is going to be saved.." and "If every Christian denomination is on the right path..." please see point 1 above.

6. Christians fight each other as they are in error as to the Christian ways. Unfortunately politicians/leaders manipulate Christians as they also manipulate Muslims for their cause. Christians ARE normal human beings.

7. As to your point 5, don't generalise. Some denominations mingle freely, some don't. Depends on various factors.

[Ibrahim]

Old man: Sorry, dear friend, but NONE of the quotations affect ANYTHING in Christian thought/religions. THEY ARE IRRELEVANT! Maybe you have some more with substance to them?

Ibrahim says: dear old man, you seem to be missing the point, ** the Word of God cannot have deviations , distortions, omissions, additions or revisions , when they do, it cannot be considered the word of God anymore.** So here is where wise people will start to asking themselves, Did God left me in the lurch or did God corrected all these problems and had reestablished His word without a blemish? . When such people sit down and sincerely seek they will find that the Qur’an is the correction of all those problems that are found in the Bible and they are the ones that can receive salvation not the one’s who are trying to mend the word of God by revising them even further or do what their mind conjure, whose foundation is based in error.

Hope that helps

PS: If you want more try the atheist web sites, they have compiled large amounts of problem found in the bible, I for one am not in the business of finding faults in the Bible but study it to understand where people have strayed

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Regards
Ibrahim

** We fall constantly even when we are most enlightened. But when we are in true spiritual darkness, we do not even know that we have fallen. **

[Qaasim]

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
1. Who said "all are going to be saved"? Actually very few will be "saved".
[/quote]

Which one would be saved then?

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
2. Sects differ from one another due to many reasons. Some differences/issues are extremely large (virgin birth), some extremely small (what language to use).
[/quote]

To me these differences make them different from each others and my question stays the same which one is on the right path?
if all are on the right path then why the differences?

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
3. Small/big sects? You serious?
[/quote]

Yes I am serious, christians can tell me if there are no small or big sects among Christians?

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
4. Yes there sometimes are differences as to political issues.
[/quote]

sometimes or al lthe times? Are these differences are political only?
is there no religious differences involved behind these fights?

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
5. "If every denomination is going to be saved.." and "If every Christian denomination is on the right path..." please see point 1 above.
[/quote]

does not make any sense....

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
6. Christians fight each other as they are in error as to the Christian ways. Unfortunately politicians/leaders manipulate Christians as they also manipulate Muslims for their cause. Christians ARE normal human beings.
[/quote]

If christians fight with each other due to errors, then that is answer I am looking for:
Who is on error and who is on right?

Do not use the examples from other religions because this is a simple question, that which denominations is on the right path among christians?
There are so many other threads and discussions going on to discuss the issues related to other religions.

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
7. As to your point 5, don't generalise. Some denominations mingle freely, some don't. Depends on various factors.
[/quote]

It is not generalization, it is fact that christains killed/kill each other on the name of religion, or is it not a fact?

[The_Old_Man]

Which one would be saved then?

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him. John.3v36

To me these differences make them different from each others and my question stays the same which one is on the right path?
if all are on the right path then why the differences?

There is not one 100% denomination as only God Himself can be perfect. God will not show people away due to small errors in their doctrine, eg. the one person believes in Armageddon, another not. Differences such as these has NO impact on God’s saving grace.

Yes I am serious, christians can tell me if there are no small or big sects among Christians?

Some large sects are the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Baptist church denominations (just listing 3 randomly). Some small sects are Brethren, Nazarean, AEB (just listing 3 randomly).

sometimes or al lthe times? Are these differences are political only?
is there no religious differences involved behind these fights?

Both “sometimes” and “all the times”. There are church denominations which are totally politically motivated. Some of these denominations “interpret” the Bible to fit in with their political opinions and that ensure again that the differences become “religious” differences - the cause though is “political”.

does not make any sense…

Just read what was posted. If it still is unclear, ask a specific question. “Does not make sense” means squad to someone trying to explain. Does it mean you do not understand the language, meaning, or what?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

If christians fight with each other due to errors, then that is answer I am looking for:
Who is on error and who is on right?

Sometimes both sides are wrong

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

Sometimes both sides are correct

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Sometimes only one side is correct

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

. Give any example and I will point to what is error if any.

Do not use the examples from other religions because this is a simple question, that which denominations is on the right path among christians?
There are so many other threads and discussions going on to discuss the issues related to other religions.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

It is not generalization, it is fact that christains killed/kill each other on the name of religion, or is it not a fact?

Yes it is a fact that some Christians killed/kill each other. Your original statement sort of indicated that in general Christians kill each other, which is a lie/untruth.

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited February 11, 2002).]

[Ibrahim]

[quote]
Old man wrote; Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him. John.3v36
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear Old man, let me make clear this verse for you

• King James John 3:36 ** He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:** and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; ** but the wrath of God** abideth on him.

-- Simple English
John 3:36 The person ** who commits himself to the Son has eternal life,** but the person who does not obey the Son will not see eternal life. Instead, God's punishment stays on that person.

-- Romanized,

John 3:36 Ho pisteuoon eis ton huion echei zooeen aioonion. Ho de apeithoon too huioo ouk opsetai zooeen, all hee orgee tou Theou menei ep auton.

Ho =He
Pisteuoon =believing
Eis =into
ton =the
huion = son
echei =has
zooeen= live
aioonion.= age lasting
Ho = he
de = but
apeithoon =disobeying
too =the
huioo =son
ouk =not
opsetai = shall see
zooeen, = life
all = but
hee = the
orgee =anger of
tou = the
Theou = God
Menei =abides
ep = on
auton. =him

Ibrahim says: I wanted to make this clear to you, since when you understand this, ** you must understand that ALL MUSLIMS believe in Christ and worship God, just as Christ worshipped God and asked the jew to belive in him as God's messenger **

But do Christians worship God or Christ when the call upon Jesus?

Do the vast majority of Christians truthfully believe Christ for what he said he was, and, truly understand his commands and obey them?

Muslims believe, most of the followers who claim to be Christians do not even nderstand the truth behind calling their leader "Christ" and themselves "Christians".

The above verse has two parts. ** `Belief' and Obedience'.**

On the subject of Belief in Christ', Jesus asked his disciples; "But who do you say that I am? And Peter answered and said, ** "The Christ of God."** (Luke 9:20). Peter did not say God or a god.

We Muslims truly believe Jesus was "The Christ (al-Masih) of God". The expression "The Christ of God" literally means; "The one that was anointed by God himself". Please go back in time and think. God performed the ceremony of anointing (physically or spiritually) and for that reason, Jesus became "The Christ of God".

Now may I please ask you a simple question. Who is greater and exalted; the one who anointed, or, the one who got anointed? Since God anointed Jesus, ** God is the One that IS greater and exalted than Jesus, which we Muslims do believe.**

Secondly, did Jesus anoint God? If not, how can Jesus Christ be "co-equal" with the one who made him Holy (Christ)?

Hot Tip:

"...Thy holy ** Servant Jesus,** whom Thou didst anoint,..." (Acts 4:27 - New American Standard Bible).

This leaves no room for doubt that Jesus, who was anointed, was a Servant of God'. Besides, there are also other verses in the Bible that declare Jesus;God's Servant'. Those who claim Jesus acted as a Bond Servant have nothing in the preaching and teachings of Jesus to back them up.

                                                 --------------------------  

Now let us go to the second part of the quoted verse; "obeying the Christ". Please read the following verse and ** ask yourself a question; have I obeyed? **

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word, and believes ** Him who sent me,** has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, ** but has passed out of death into life". ** John 5:24

Have I believed and placed my trust basically, fundamentally and predominately in Him or in Jesus?

Hot Tip:

Jesus said; ** "But I do not seek my glory; there is One who seeks and judges."** John 8:51.

Who is this "One"? Have you basically and essentially glorified that "One" who seeks the glory or Jesus who does not?

Please remember, as per the above verse, that "One" will be the Judge on the Day of Judgment and not Jesus.

Muslims have believed the above verse of Jesus. Please read the verse quoted by you and then think about the "wrath of God" – the One who is going to be the final Judge.

So old man. believe in Allah not just Christ do you not realize the anger of God is on you when you worship Jesus instead of Allah ?

Regards
Ibrahim

2: 136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes ** and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."**

[Qaasim]

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him. John.3v36
[/quote]

I did not ask for the belives, I asked for the NAME of that denominations which is right among christians and no one still have been able to give me the name of that ONE denomination's name which is right.
No one is asking who belives what:
I am asking the name of that denomination which is right, it is so simple, give me the name in one word.

[quote]

There is not one 100% denomination as only God Himself can be perfect. God will not show people away due to small errors in their doctrine, eg. the one person believes in Armageddon, another not. Differences such as these has NO impact on God's saving grace.
[/quote]

does that mean even though these sects have their differences and call each other non-christians due to these differences, they would still be saved?

[quote]

Some large sects are the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Baptist church denominations (just listing 3 randomly). Some small sects are Brethren, Nazarean, AEB (just listing 3 randomly).
[/quote]

Again my question stands unanswered, which one of these small or big sects is the right one?

[quote]
Both "sometimes" and "all the times". There are church denominations which are totally politically motivated. Some of these denominations "interpret" the Bible to fit in with their political opinions that ensure again that the differences become "religious" differences - the cause though is "political".
[/quote]

Does this mean that the churches that do the politically motivated altered interpretaions and present them as religious interpretations are telling lies to the public? Which are those churches are?

[quote]
Sometimes both sides are wrong Sometimes both sides are correct Sometimes only one side is correct . Give any example and I will point to what is error if any.
[/quote]

I am not christian, why would I give an example, I am asking the question here, christians should explain it with examples from inside the christians so that we should know which sect of christian was/is wrong and which was/is right..

[quote]
Yes it is a fact that some Christians killed/kill each other. Your original statement sort of indicated that in general Christians kill each other, which is a lie/untruth.
[/quote]

My statement was not wrong and was not lie,
this is fact that christians killed/kill each other and they also killed/kill the people from other faith on the name of christianity and religons.........

[The_Old_Man]

Qaasim:

I did not ask for the belives, I asked for the NAME of that denominations which is right among christians and no one still have been able to give me the name of that ONE denomination’s name which is right.
No one is asking who belives what:
I am asking the name of that denomination which is right, it is so simple, give me the name in one word.

And the answer is….THERE IS NO ONE DENOMINATION THAT IS 100% CORRECT AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT. Funny, I thought I said that in ten different ways already

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

does that mean even though these sects have their differences and call each other non-christians due to these differences, they would still be saved?

There are NO denominations that is close to the full truth that will claim to be the only path in order to be saved. Those denominations slating others as leading people straight to hell, ALL are quite far from the full truth themselves – it is a sort of identification. Sure there are some sects that clearly are teaching doctrines that will lead their people to hell IF THEY BELIEVE OR ACT THEREUPON. All of these last sects normally claim to be the only true way.

Again my question stands unanswered, which one of these small or big sects is the right one?

You asked for some to be named which is large or small – that question was clearly answered. Which is the right one? Please AGAIN see the answer to your first quote above. One word: NONE.

Does this mean that the churches that do the politically motivated altered interpretaions and present them as religious interpretations are telling lies to the public? Which are those churches are?

Yes, unfortunately they are altering interpretations and spreading lies. One example is a sect in South Africa that teach that no “non-white” person can be “saved”. They go as far as to even teach that these people are not human at all. They use the Bible to prove their points by misquoting and giving absolutely wrong interpretations to sections in the Bible. There is actually NO way you can reason with them as their leader according to them is infallible.

I am not christian, why would I give an example, I am asking the question here, christians should explain it with examples from inside the christians so that we should know which sect of christian was/is wrong and which was/is right..

Fair enough…just thought you had some issue in mind. I will give an example. It is written:

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in the present age, while we wait for the blessed hope – the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Tit.2v11-14

According to above, ANY Christian sect that believes/teach the following is absolutely wrong in their doctrines:

(a) grace is not enough in itself for salvation
(b) the saving grace is not for everyone (as per the sect mentioned above)
(c) a Christian can live as he pleases
(d) a Christian does not need to be of high moral standing
(e) Jesus Christ will not returning
(f) Jesus Christ is not God and Saviour
(g) Jesus Christ did not die in order for people to be saved

Above just a simple example FOR CHRISTIANS. Your believe/faith would not necessary agree with all of above, as you are not a Christian.

My statement was not wrong and was not lie,
this is fact that christians killed/kill each other and they also killed/kill the people from other faith on the name of christianity and religons…

I’ll help you:

My statement was not wrong and was not a lie, this is a fact that some Christians killed/kill each other and they also killed/kill the people from other faiths in the name of Christianity and religion. Now I agree with you

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[The_Old_Man]

Dear Ibrahim:

This leaves no room for doubt that Jesus, who was anointed, was a Servant of God'. Besides, there are also other verses in the Bible that declare Jesus; God’s Servant’. Those who claim Jesus acted as a Bond Servant have nothing in the preaching and teachings of Jesus to back them up.

I agree fully with you as to the standing of Jesus Christ relative to God Almighty. I though, don’t see any problem in it as your body should also be subordinate to your soul. Since the Christian faith believe in a Triune God, there is no clash or problem accepting Jesus as doing what his Farther (God) wants from him.

(Just for the record, sometimes the anointor is less than the anointed. See Luk.7v36-46 & John.12v3 & 2Sam2v4 and all Kings, Prophets, priest by lesser men. Don’t generalise

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

)

Have I believed and placed my trust basically, fundamentally and predominately in Him or in Jesus?

If Jesus and Him is one and the same, as Christians believe, there is no clash as believing/trusting the one is the same as the other.

Who is this “One”? Have you basically and essentially glorified that “One” who seeks the glory or Jesus who does not?

Same as above

Please remember, as per the above verse, that “One” will be the Judge on the Day of Judgment and not Jesus.

Christians believe Jesus Christ will be judge on the Day of Judgement:

”I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned…..For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man John.5v24-27

• For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead* Acts.17v31

Above form part of the Christian faith/teaching and not your religion. Just another proof that Islam and Christianity are miles apart in their doctrines/faith.

Please read the verse quoted by you and then think about the “wrath of God” – the One who is going to be the final Judge.

I have no fear…

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

All depends on each one’s faith, I suppose. If your faith is correct, then I have problems. If my faith is correct, you have problems. Let God Almighty decide…

[Ibrahim]

I agree fully with you as to the standing of Jesus Christ relative to God Almighty.

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear old man, you seem confused or clearly contradicting your own statements in this thread.

1. you agree that Jesus was God’s servant

2. but you also believe “our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ” Tit.2v11-14

Thus I can only feel sorry for you. Since I have earlier proved to you

1. that there is no such person called “jesus” with a letter “j”

2. that the bible has additions, omissions, alterations and is INACCURATE.

3. That the epistles are not part of the gospel

which you have evaded and have no strength to explore or discuss in this forum.

Since the Christian faith believe in a Triune God, there is no clash or problem accepting Jesus as doing what his Farther (God) wants from him.

Ibrahim says: this is another erroneous concept. The same concept hindus developed that the Christian have copied.

The idea of “trinity” is even removed form the current bible by the catholic church who promoted it in these days.

Get a Holy Bible (RSVCE) CE means catholic edition, which is different from RSV.. this is a good read for the introduction will reveal many things for instance :- ** " Thus the passage known as the “three heavenly Witnesses ( 1 John 5:7-8) which is in the Latin vulgate and in versions based on it , does not appear in recent Catholic editions of the New Testament”**

Anyway let me make this simple for you

Kindly read.

1. “…I go to the Father; for the ** Father is greater than I”** . John.14:28

2. “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and ** God is the head of Christ.”** 1 Corin. 11:3

3. “Behold, ** My servant whom I have chosen;** My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.” Matthew 12:18

4. “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, ** has glorified His Servant Jesus** …” Acts 3:13.

5.. “For truly in this city there were gathered together against ** Thy holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint** …” Acts 4:27.

6.“For you first, ** God raised up His Servant,** and sent him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.” Acts 3:26

7. "And you belong to Christ; ** and Christ belongs to God.** " 1 Corin 3:23.

8. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true God, ** and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.** " John 17:3

9. "And ** Jesus said** to him, `Why do you call me good? ** No one is good except God alone.** " Mark 10:18

10. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, ** nor the Son, but the Father alone.** " Matthew 24:36

11. “Jesus said to her, 'Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them, ** I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”** John 20:17

12. “And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and he knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from me; ** yet not my will, but Thine be done.” ** Luke 22:41-42

** Hot Tip: **

To those who advocate the `Doctrine of Trinity’ I request them to read

Matthew 4:10;

“Then ** Jesus said ** to him, `Begone, Satan! For it is written, ** You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'”**

** If ** Jesus and Him is one and the same, as Christians believe, there is no clash as believing/trusting the one is the same as the other.

Ibrahim says: old man my dear, “ IF”, you mean God left you in the lurch, you are not sure as to who Christ is and who God is? Am I not proving to you again and again that the Christians are in error because they placed their faith on a book written and corrupted by man?

Again even a child would be able to wonder as to why would a man ask someone to place their faith in “HIM” who sent him…get it?

If Christ was God, he wont be saying such things, instead he will be saying worship me and place you faith in me and I am your savior! Get it?

** Now be kind enough to show me such a statement stated by Christ in the Bible , if you honestly feel you are right or have some validity for such beliefs? **

• Ibrahim asked earlier : Who is this “One”? Have you basically and essentially glorified that “One” who seeks the glory or Jesus who does not? *

Old man : Same as above

Ibrahim says: old man you are evading again and not giving me straight answers, if you cannot answer me here, just imagine how will you be able to escape it in the hereafter. When, you will have to answer this same question in the presence of God, not Christ!

Read!

Roman 14:

11. It is written: “As surely as I live,' says the Lord, every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'”

12. So then, ** each of us will give an account of himself to God. ** NOT CHRIST BUT GOD

Christians believe Jesus Christ will be judge on the Day of Judgement:

Ibrahim says : That is a great error on the part of Christians, since NONE is capable of judgment except God. But all Prophets including Christ will act as mediators for their respective flocks in the presence of God.

”I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned…..For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man John.5v24-27

Ibrahim says : Old man , this is naïve, since you skipped verse 30

30. By myself I can do nothing; ** I judge only as I hear,** and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

31. "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.

** Hot Tip: **

Jesus said to Mary; “…go to my brethren, and say to them, ** I ascend to my Father and your Father…”** (John 20:17).

This verse demonstrates that the usage of term `Father’ by Jesus was not in a physical sense but was purely metaphorical for the Creator.

So old man, will you also claim that you will be the judge since you believed . And he has given him authority to judge** because he is the Son of Man ** John.5v24-27

Are you not a son of man , old man, when Christ himself said God is your father?

For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead Acts.17v31

Ibrahim says:

Lets read Romans 2:5-16

5. But** because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath,** when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

6. ** God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”**

7. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

8. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

9. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

10. but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

11. ** For God does not show favoritism. **

12. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and ** all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. **

13. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14. ** (** Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

15. since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them** ) **

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

16. This will take place on the day ** when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, ** as my gospel declares.

Ibrahim says: So according to the Gospel all will be judged on the day of judgment according to Allah’s absolute will! Not according to Christ will.

So what is Christ’s function?

Let s Read ! Timothy 2:5

5. ** For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,**

Let’s Read 2 Peter 2:4-9

4. For if ** God did not spare angels** when they sinned, but ** sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; **

5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men

8. ** (** for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard** )**

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

9. if this is so, then ** the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.**

Above form part of the Christian faith/teaching and not your religion. Just another proof that Islam and Christianity are miles apart in their doctrines/faith.

Ibrahim says: that is ** because Paul altered and redesigned the teachings of Christ for the gentiles ** when Christ taught no such thing and came only for the Jews.

I have no fear… All depends on each one’s faith, I suppose. If your faith is correct, then I have problems. If my faith is correct, you have problems. Let God Almighty decide…

Ibrahim says: But old man you have been given the senses and the time to decide and I have been showing you that your faith is based on errors, won’t you be man enough to face them while you are still alive and have a chance to correct your errors?

The choice is yours but it is also by duty to convey the TRUTH.

Devoted to Truth
Ibrahim

** God’s part we cannot do; our part HE will do. **