Iqbal’s shair from Ibless ki Majlis e shoora:
Tab’ay Mashriq ke liye Mozoon yehi afiyoon thi
Warna ‘Qawwali’ se kuch kam nahin ‘Ilm e Kalaam’
What is Ilm e Kalam? Why Iqbal presented both Qawwali and Ilm e Kalaam as something negative?
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
from top of my head, ilkm-e-kalam main kalaam/behes kartay hain, baat say baat nikalna, formula say formula drive karna,
if a = b and b = 2C then a = C, type of thing
is main kuch door ki koRi lanay walay istaaray bhi ho saktay hain, may be thats why Iqbal said that
kalaam jumlay main istamal hota hay, jesay "mujhay is say kalaam nahi key xyz...."
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
Actually we need to consider the previous shair of the poem to understand the context.
Ye Humari Saee-e-Peham Ki Karamat Hai Ke Aaj
Sufi-o-Mullah Mukuliyat Ke Bande Hain Tamam
Taba-e-Mashriq Ke Liye Mouzoon Yehi Afyoon Thi
Warna 'Qawwali' Se Kuch Kam Tar Nahin 'Ilm E Kalam'
Iblees says that it is result of our efforts that sufi and Mullah who are supposed to lead Muslim Ummah have accepted the imperialism or western ideology as ruling system instead.
And, Sufi and Mullah, who are supposed to preach ‘tazkia nafs’, ‘irfaan’, Taqwa have restricted themselves to 'sama' ,qawala, and futile 'manazaray' (debates) and Masael e Ilahiat.
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
i think they used to teach ilm-e-kalam in some madaris right?
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
i think they used to teach ilm-e-kalam in some madaris right?
whta is exactly ilm e kalaam? debate / manazra?
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
Actually we need to consider the previous shair of the poem to understand the context.
Ye Humari Saee-e-Peham Ki Karamat Hai Ke Aaj Sufi-o-Mullah Mukuliyat Ke Bande Hain Tamam Taba-e-Mashriq Ke Liye Mouzoon Yehi Afyoon Thi Warna 'Qawwali' Se Kuch Kam Tar Nahin 'Ilm E Kalam'
Iblees says that it is result of our efforts that sufi and Mullah who are supposed to lead Muslim Ummah have accepted the imperialism or western ideology as ruling system instead.
And, Sufi and Mullah, who are supposed to preach ‘tazkia nafs’, ‘irfaan’, Taqwa have restricted themselves to 'sama' ,qawala, and futile 'manazaray' (debates) and Masael e Ilahiat.
How sufis and Mullas are connected with imperialism? Most of the time, they are presented as opposite school of thoughts.
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
i think they used to teach ilm-e-kalam in some madaris right?
Yes, Sufis have some different concepts regarding attributes Allah(S.W.T) where-as holding debates to find attributes of Allah(S.W.T) is prohibited. For example they used to discuss chair, place, hands, or other attributes. Some Sufis used to believe that they can become part of divine at some higher stage ofspirituality; i have heard different stories of Sufis missions on to reach such stages. Some people believe that some Sufis got success in such missions.
Debates on wahdat ul wajood is another kind of ilm-e-kalam they used to teach. wahdat ul wajood implies that Allah and His creature are not separate.
whta is exactly ilm e kalaam? debate / manazra?
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
How sufis and Mullas are connected with imperialism? Most of the time, they are presented as opposite school of thoughts.
Not all mullahs, but most of mullahs and Sufis.
Considering the ideology of Iqbal, they didn’t resist that system where-as they were supposed to lead ummah instead. In other words they accepted this system indirectly.
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
Not all mullahs, but most of mullahs and Sufis. Considering the ideology of Iqbal, they didn’t resist that system where-as they were supposed to lead ummah instead. In other words they accepted this system indirectly.
ajaz have you read Maududi's saheb's 'Khilafat o mamlookiyat'. I talking of last chapter dealing with the separate jurisdictions of ulema and mamlook?
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
Yes, Sufis have some different concepts regarding attributes Allah(S.W.T) where-as holding debates to find attributes of Allah(S.W.T) is prohibited. For example they used to discuss chair, place, hands, or other attributes. Some Sufis used to believe that they can become part of divine at some higher stage ofspirituality; i have heard different stories of Sufis missions on to reach such stages. Some people believe that some Sufis got success in such missions.
Debates on wahdat ul wajood is another kind of ilm-e-kalam they used to teach. wahdat ul wajood implies that Allah and His creature are not separate.
The concept of halool was present in Indian religions and probably in Persian theology. I don't know where from Muslim sufis got it
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
ajaz have you read Maududi's saheb's 'Khilafat o mamlookiyat'. I talking of last chapter dealing with the separate jurisdictions of ulema and mamlook?
where he talked about Sahaba and their ruling?
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
where he talked about Sahaba and their ruling?
no. where he talked about religious scholars parting their ways with rulers.
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
no. where he talked about religious scholars parting their ways with rulers.
I know other part i mentioned, but dont know this one. please you give details.
Re: Qawwali se kuch kam nahin Ilm e Kalaam
I know other part i mentioned, but dont know this one. please you give details.
Its about how Muslim scholars detested malpractices of rulers due to their deviation from Sharia. Many scholars like Imam Abu Hanifa rejected post of Chief Justice as he believed that rulers will interfere in performing his duties. In Molana Maududi's words, there started two rules. Worldly rules by rulers and religious domain under religious people without no and minor support from rulers.