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Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
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I argue using just this particular strength; the authenticity of the Qur'an. [al-Waqiah 56:77] , [al-Waqiah 56:78]
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Ibrahim says; salaams to all
PA, was there an argument about the Qur’an’s authenticity or was the argument concerning your dubious assertions that the Prophet of Islam had failed to deliver the clear message?
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The Hadith Books however are disputed, even among muslims. You claim they are beyond doubt and have gone too far in equating their 'quality' and 'accuracy' with the Qur'an. I disagree. That's where we depart.
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Ibrahim says: The hadith cannot be compared with the Qur’an and I have not claimed they (which hadith are you referring to??) are beyond doubt since hadiths are classified under various categories , what I conveyed was they too have been transferred via memory to mankind like all other scriptures
But your initial claim that ……………………
- My contention is that Allah never guaranteed the sanctity and authenticity of 'records' of the conversations of the Prophet outside the Qur'anic message. *
is rather silly because you seem to lack the knowledge on how all previous scriptures and their relevant prophetic teachings have been transferred to mankind. Second your statement amounts to folly when no such revelation was sent to you or anyone else to that effect.
My point being hadith are classified according to authenticity and those that are knowledgeable in such matters know which hadiths to accept and which hadiths to reject.
But your claim is that NONE of the hadiths are acceptable because you THINK SO !!! which are comments made by the ignorant in defiance of truth and in denial of the Prophetic teachings.
The point being Allah (swt) does not pick and choose a man to be His sole representative on this planet, to lead multitudes of generations to come after him, whilst blindly allowing his teachings to be totally corrupted can HE ?
What takes place is that deviators will increase as time passes and they will invent their own hadiths and try to push it and some will end up following such teachings and end up like you , not knowing what is authentic and what is not.
So the criteria for those who have knowledge is to verify what they read before accepting it contents ( this goes for all matters).
This can only be achieved if that person is well grounded on religious knowledge as for others who are now faced with the dilemma of having two conflicting hadiths, that becomes part of their trial and they now have to seek assistance from those who are knowledgeable about such matters.
What you do not seem to comprehend is that since you are in a time frame where deviators have introduced their own versions of hadiths and want to derail the truth , ** you should make effort to identify the truth NOT become another deviator on your own based on you own whims and fancies. **
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Ths issue at hand is how the 'bearing witness' and 'testimony' started and why adding the testimony to a messenger crept into the original 'testimony' and how today anyone who wishes to only cite Allah's name and omit the messenger's name is declared a 'kaafir'
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Ibrahim says; That was not the issue! as far as I can recall on this thread , the issue was kalima was wrong ( the person who started this thread Ahmad and your claims was such )
I had already presented Qur’anic verses to confirm that the kalima ( Muhammadur Rasoolullah was practiced even before the completion of the Qur’an
Even after presenting such evidence you seem to be denying it, what other evidence would a Muslim need other than from the message and the messenger?
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You have dilly dallied and beaten around the bush but haven't reproduced a SINGLE source that explicitly tells "This is what you say when you 'embrace' Allah's religion". Not the azan, not some write up on someone's accepting Islam; direct instructions or the origin of establishment of the current 'kalima'.
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Ibrahim says; I am amazed at your blindness! Do you honestly need to be referred back to my initial post on this thread? Read it again,
Let me recap it for you:-
1) The five pillars of Islam
2) The call to prayer from the beginning of Prayers being performed as a congregation at the reestablishment of Islam in Arabia.
3) Biographies of the companions of the Prophet
4) Previous messengers and their kalimas
were all mentioned in my previous post.
Most of all for Muslims , they only need to understand what had been revealed to them
Read!
4: 59 O ye who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle ** and those charged with authority among you. ** If ye differ in anything among yourselves refer it to Allah and His Apostle if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best and most suitable for final determination
Ibrahim says: If you want direct instructions from the Prophet (pbuh) , you should have been born when he was present amongst us, all others have been instructed to follow whom? “Those Charged with authority” ?? …find out who they were and are, not you, for sure !
Again for those who cannot understand why the hadiths become the secondary source in Islam,
Read!
3: 31 Say: "If ye do love Allah ** follow me:** Allah will love you and forgive you your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful."
3: 32 Say: "Obey Allah and His Apostle"; but if they turn back ** Allah loveth not those who reject Faith **
Ibrahim says: PA, Do you suppose Allah (swt) asked mankind to follow his chosen prophet and failed to keep his teachings intact and available for future generations?
Why do you suppose Allah (swt) conveyed this?
Read!
8: 20 O ye who believe! obey Allah and his apostle ** and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). **
21 ** Nor be like those who say "we hear" but listen not:
22 For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb those who understand not. **
Ibrahim says: When Allah (swt) wanted man to listen to the Prophet speak, you don’t suppose his speeches will not be available for later generations do you? Or do you say Islam was only for those who were present at the Prophets time and the rest have to grope in darkness and invent what they chose?
Read!
40: 51 ** We will without doubt help Our apostles and those who believe ** (both) in this world's life and on the Day when the Witnesses will stand forth
Read!
2: 285 The Apostle believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord ** as do the men of faith. ** Each one (of them) believeth in Allah His angels His books and His Apostles ** "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Apostles." And they say: "We hear and we obey; ** (We seek) Thy forgiveness Our Lord and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
Read!
4: 69 All who obey Allah and the Apostle are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah of the Prophets (who teach)** the sincere (lovers of truth) the witnesses (who testify) and the righteous (who do good): ah! what a beautiful fellowship! **
Ibrahim says: As to the people who used to doubt , just like you , they used to claim “we submit” ( also just like you) but had NO FAITH in their hearts , Allah (swt) already exposed them even in the Qur’an
Read!
49: 14 The desert Arabs say "We believe." Say "Ye have no faith; ** but ye (only) say `We have submitted our wills to Allah.' For not yet has Faith entered your hearts. ** But if ye obey Allah and His Apostle He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful."
15 ** Only those are Believers who have believed in Allah and His Apostle and have never since doubted but have striven with their belongings and their persons in the Cause of Allah: Such are the sincere ones. **
16 Say: ** "what! Will ye instruct Allah about your Religion?" ** but Allah knows all that is in the heavens and on earth: He has full knowledge of all things
Read!
40: 56 Those who dispute about the Signs of Allah** without any authority bestowed on them there is nothing in their breasts but (the quest of) greatness which they shall never attain to:** seek refuge then in Allah: it is He Who hears and sees (all things).
Read!
4: 61 ** When it is said to them: "Come to what Allah hath revealed and to the Apostle": thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust. **
Read!
4: 115 If anyone contends with the Apostle even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him ** and follows a path other than that becoming to men of faith We shall leave him in the path he has chosen and land him in Hell--what an evil refuge! **
Ibrahim says; so here we have it, you not only rejected the appointed Apostle teachings you have been trying to discount his authority to guide mankind as he had been taught by the Angels, hence we have been shown why you have been left to wander and wonder on your own. .
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Finding similar words in the Qur’an is not the goal. It’s the direct commandment, verse or description of a similar occasion when Prophets or their followers embraced Allah’s religion. The Spirit of the message is One. "Submit to the Lord of the Universe."
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Ibrahim says: If you understand the spirit of the message than why are trying to discredit what had been taught by the Prophet and practiced from ancient times? Maybe you feel you need to be shown everything or else you will not believe and you will resolve to dispute with those that have faith in such matters?
Direct commandments, is Allah’s absolute will and pleasure and what He designs for man He conveys through the chosen Prophets, the rest have to follow their guidance, not demand for details or ask for special requirements.
Read!
42: 51 It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration of from behind a veil ** or by the sending of a Messenger to reveal with Allah's permission what Allah wills: ** for He is Most High Most Wise
The unbelievers also demanded such things from the prophets sent to them and on account of such arrogance and rejection of his teachings ended up in the fire
The very idea that after 1422 years , we have YOU, claiming that Muslims for the past 1422 years have been deluded and you and your insolent deviant clique have realized the Muslims using the wrong kalima is absurd …please grow up …People will consider you a loony, I myself am left with little choice , since up till now you have not proofed anything except convey your personal conjectures.
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I have argued using such verses. You can do the same by producing the source for the exact statement you say is necessary to declare one’s acceptance of Allah’s religion. That at least will move the argument forward.
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Ibrahim says: What ever you presented had been refuted by me and others on this thread already . You mean all that I wrote had no source? Please wake up and read again telling stories is not the way of a Muslim.
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Ibrahim earlier * 2) How does a Prophet deliver a message clearly , when the wordings are from Allah (swt)? are you saying the Prophet added his own words or did Allah (swt) gave a confused message that made it unclear in the first place? *
PA: Read: [al-Haqqah 69:43] . [al-Haqqah 69:44] [al-Haqqah 69:45] The Prophet didn't fabricate anything. Allah made sure he didn't and the message has reached us clearly as promised. The Prophet has thus fulfilled his duty to Allah of delivering the message clearly.
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Ibrahim says; Good! then why are you in doubts as to what he taught and what he did not teach ? or do you suppose the majority who have been practicing what has been taught by the Prophet (pbuh) are all fools?
But you did not answer my question, I asked you how will the Prophet makes thing CLEAR, when all the words found in the Qur’an are from Allah (swt)?
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How many times do I have to debunk the 'Salaat not in the Qur'an myth'?
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Ibrahim says; excuse me! Can you show me where you have done this? It is possible I could be losing my sight but not my senses! So care to tell me when you have shown clear evidence for your statements?
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Topics on Ablutions, Specific Times of Salaat, Standing, Magnifying Allah, Bowing, Glorifying his name while bowing, Prostrating, Glorifying him, Method of reciting Qur'an (not too loud, not too low), and many other Salaat topics are in the Qur'an.
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Ibrahim says: Good, now name them according to the way the Prophet had guided Muslims as per the records found in the Qur’an ( use only verses) and tell us why it is in such an order (kindly explain in detail). ** You can start separate thread IF you like **
I repeat my question is about the procedure of worship as done by the majority of Muslims who unite in congregation across the globe for the past 1422 years.
Since you claim it has been clearly taught in the Qur’an, I expect you to be a man/woman of your word and lay out the details for me to see them for myself.
I pray you will not fail me , in posting the verses and its correct order as taught by the prophet in the Qur’an
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Can one get the EXACT methods by studying Hadiths? And even if one can, does it make those collections Books of Commandments?
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Ibrahim says: What!!! I thought, you said all of them are found in the Qur’an so why are you now concerned with the hadiths?? Did I ask you from the hadiths or from the Qur’an? so stay on the subject and answer the question, don’t play merry go around with me!
Second if you deny the Prophet you deny Allah, hence If the Prophet guided man to do such and such , they become commandments of Allah ( I have already quoted verses to this effect, hope I do not have to repeat them again and again)
Anyway, Don’t worry about the hadiths, show me , tell us and explain the verses in the Qur’an concerning the exact methods to be followed in submitting to Allah (swt)
Mind you, the salaat is also a pillar of Islam , so If you cannot get that right, we can understand why you cannot get the shahada right !
REMEMBER you said the Prophet had made it CLEAR, so make it CLEAR to me using the Qur’an
That is all I ask!
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The Qur'an has the COMPLETE message for our Salvation. Allah has included details of everything. When Allah omits something, it is for the purpose of providing us flexibility in our religion.
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Ibrahim says: Meaning you can do what you like? Or follow what the Prophet teaches concerning such matters as such matters are left to the prophet, who will be guided by the angels.
Remember Allah (swt) had repeatedly conveyed to mankind to obey the Apostle, If Allah (swt) had left matters according to our whims and fancies, there is NO need for an apostle to make things clear, nor for Allah (swt) to tell us to obey the Apostle, since the Qur’an is complete, is there?
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[Yusuf 12:111] In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.
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Ibrahim says; I give you two translations of the same verse PLUS commentary
Pickthall
12: 111 In their history verily there is a lesson for men of understanding. It is no invented story but a confirmation of the existing (Scripture) and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for folk who believe.
Yusof Ali;
12: 111 There is in their stories instruction for men endued with understanding. It is not a tale invented but a confirmation of what went before it a detailed exposition of all things and a Guide and a Mercy to any such as believe
Commentary from Yusof Ali for above verse
A story like that of Joseph is not a purely imaginary fable. The People of the Book have it in their sacred literature. It is confirmed here in its main outline, but here there is a detailed spiritual exposition that will be found nowhere in earlier literature. ** The exposition covers all sides of human life. If properly understood it gives valuable lessons to guide our conduct ** ,-an instance of Allah's grace and mercy to people who will go to Him in faith and put their affairs in His hands.
Ibrahim says : Now tell me something, when all details are provided in the scriptures why did Allah (swt) ask us to obey , copy and emulate the Prophets?
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Prophet conveyed Allah's message for us to pray. Many times in the Qur'an, Allah tells us to pray. Message conveyed. We can obey Allah and his Prophet by establishing prayer, something not entirely new to the Planet as you would have us believe.
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Ibrahim says; Good! now you can post how the other prophets prayed with complete references for them too from where ever you can get them
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Generations before us used to offer Salaat and Zakat, it was enjoined on all before us as it was enjoined on us. [Maryam 19:31] "He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salaat and Zakat for as long as I live.
So now if we find Books from Orthodox Christians on how to pray, do they become our Books of Commandments?
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Ibrahim says; Did I not tell you that each prophet had been guided and they all had the same message and their similitude’s would be similar? , now since you are aware the all prophets prayed and all of them worshipped Allah (swt) only , do you suppose Allah (swt) failed to guide them as to how they should pray?
Second you seem to be under the delusion that current Christians and those that are called Nasrani’s in the Qur’an are one and the same with regards to how they comprehend or practice their religion. Once you understand that, {they are not the same,} you will realize why the current praying procedures of Christians cannot be considered valid as what was practiced and taught by their prophets. So there goes your theory down the drain.
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and while we're at it, the testimony you defend is also used in Salaat; taking a messenger's name with Allah, here's what Allah has to say about that
[al-Jinn 72:18] And that the mosques are Allah's, therefore call not upon any one with Allah:
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Ibrahim says; You must be naïve or willfully trying to deceive yourself, can you point out any Muslim salaat which involves the invoking of any Prophet or anchorite other than Allah (swt) ?
Read!
33: 56 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: ** O ye that believe! send ye blessings on him and salute him with all respect.**
Ibrahim says: Hey PA, will you deny this verse knowingly or do you expect to invent your own rules on what was approved by Allah (swt)
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Ibrahim wrote earlier: * First a message is being sent by the Creator to mankind via a chosen prophet. Allah (swt) could have written it in the skies or dropped the Qur’an from the sky, IF he so willed , but he chose a man and made it a book, such that we will take our guidance from that man. *
PA: Read the Qur'an. All creations REFUSED to carry the burden of the Qur'an.
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Ibrahim says : I suppose I have failed to read the Qur’an , kindly tell us who refused to carry the burden of the Qur’an and why would the Qur’an be burden for all creations?
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PA: Man took that covenant.
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Ibrahim says: Kindly quote verses for your assertions as per your above context.
PA you are out of context, maybe you have misunderstood what I am saying or maybe I did not word it correctly anyway…………. I have no time to go around the bend with you. My emphasis was that Allah (swt) chose his prophet amongst man , such that man will learn to emulate them not do as they wish.
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The guidance is NOT from the man, but from the MESSAGE which the Messenger is conveying.
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Ibrahim says: The chosen man is not some tom, dick and harry, that happened to reach 40 years of age, he had been guided from child birth , just like most other prophets ( although his stories are not available to us as is the case of prophet Musa or Prophet Yusoof in the Qur’an . But there is sufficient evidence to proof that the prophet even before being given prophet hood was a most respectable/trustworthy person in word and deed.
Hence the prophets set exemplary human behavior on their own and after being primed for 40 years by Allah (swt) were anointed to represent Allah(swt) and given a message to convey to mankind. They were not just left on their own to decide for themselves but were guided all the time by angels appointed for such purpose.
Hence when I say we are to follow their guidance, it is in principal the guidance of Allah (swt) and not his own. That is why it is conveyed when you obey the prophet you obey Allah (swt)
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Messenger was on his own for 40 years, no one was taking any guidance from him till Allah chose him to deliver The Message
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Ibrahim says; Agreed when it comes to the message
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Allah teaches us the religion. [al-Baqarah 2:138.23] .[al-Qiyamah 75:16] [al-Qiyamah 75:17] [al-Qiyamah 75:18] [al-Qiyamah 75:19]
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Ibrahim says: Allah (swt) is the guide not only for religion but for every other knowledge that man could and will posses in this planet, that does not mean Allah (swt) comes down and tells you to do this or that.
The message is given to a chosen man and he subsequently transferred that message to mankind ( already quoted the verse above ) At the same time Allah (swt) can inspire man, as per his will but when a final prophet had been appointed to deliver a final message to mankind which has been completed, it is not fitting for any tom, dick and harry to claim the prophet had made a mistake ( which is what you are doing when you try and deny the kalima practiced by Muslims for 1422 years)
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And who will guide us and with what?
[az-Zumar 39:23] Allah has revealed the best Hadith, A Book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.
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Ibrahim says: Let me give another translation for easier understanding, since you keep using the word hadith in the Arabic context on your translations
39: 23 Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful message in the form of a Book consistent with itself (Yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases but such as Allah leaves to stray can have none to guide
Now PA, The Qur’an took 23 years to complete , not because it would take such a length of time to deliver but because it had to be made clear to mankind. meaning when a person who had some doubts about what was being revealed , he /she did not cry out to Allah ( swt) but approached the Prophet and he would explain to them or enlighten them, it was such and such when he knew the answers failing which it would be rfered to Allah (swt) and He sends revelations answering that Question. This is the same scenario for all prophets. That is why you will see answers to many questions posed by the followers as well as non believers found as part of that revelation.
I have already made it clear to you all guidance comes form Allah (swt) and also made it clear to you that Allah (swt) does not speak to man but have assigned Prophets and messengers to do so. Hence as far as mankind is concerned , the words of Allah (swt) are received through the assigned man as such we are to follow his guidance.
Now at this time frame, since the Prophet is not present amongst us, we are still obliged to follow his teachings not invent one on our own as per our whims and fancies.
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* Ibrahim says; It is not one verse joining with another, it is a testimony uttered as such which was what had been practiced from ancient times , which was taught to the prophet (pbuh) and by the prophet ( pbuh) to Muslims to put into practice *
PA: I have debunked it using the verses. You have yet to show me verses from the Qur'an where Prophets are quoted as bearing witness to Allah and their status or a previous messenger’s status. or a previous messenger's .
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Ibrahim says; that is funny, because what you claim you have debunked is your own assertion as far as I can see , you took a reply to a question posed by Allah (swt) to one of his prophets and started to claim it was the kalima, not knowing the fact that the same prophet did not convey that to his followers or his own father even , whereas I have shown you numerous verses in the Qur’an where the kalima taught by the Prophet is being repeated again and again in varying forms.
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* If you chose to reject it, than clearly you are on an erroneous path framed by your own mind, for this guidance had not only been transferred in written form but also via memory just like scripture for 1422 years. *
PA: This is the fundamental disagreement. I am highly skeptical of the accounts that people collected and proclaimed as sayings of the Prophet; you embrace them with the same reverence and confidence as you would the Qur'an. You fail to see the numerous contradictions these Books have in themselves and with the teachings of the Qur'an.
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Ibrahim says: You are allowed to be skeptical as you chose at your own peril and that is not a concern to me BUT when you claim prophetic teachings are false with regards to the shahada you are indirectly saying Allah (swt) had failed Muslims. As I said earlier the method of transmission in Islam are in two forms and both forms are in agreement as to what was taught by the prophet and practiced by Muslims concerning the shahada, hence it is you who are in error manifest and not Muslims.
When you try and claim they are contradicting hadiths as such the kalima is in error, it is down right stupidity ( since both forms of transmission is in total agreement as well as the texts being found within the Qur’an attest to the wordings. If you find errors in parts of other hadiths than it is your duty to verify them as to its authenticity ( no one is compelled to accept it because it is said it is a hadith) that does not mean all hadiths become unauthentic.
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* 63:1 When the Hypocrites come to thee they say "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Apostle of Allah." Yea Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Apostle and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars.
Read AGAIN that above verse and THINK before you reply! *
PA: The hypocrites came to the Prophet.
They testified the messenger is the messenger of Allah. It doesn't imply what they said was an established testimony, or is the right testimony , in fact Allah scorns at their testimony saying He knows who Muhammad is.
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Ibrahim says: see how you make a mockery of yourself? You read in one verse a prophet answering a question and out of your folly you start to claim that is and must be the testimony and not what Muslims have practiced for 1422 years .
Here I present you with clear evidence that human beings had been bearing testimony that Prophet Muhammad is the messenger of Allah even when the Qur’an had not been fully completed and you reject it according to your whims and fancies.
The verse attest to the fact that hypocrites used to bear false testimony and believers used to bear sincere testimonies to that effect.
You can reject all you want but that is not going to change that verse or its meanings in any way.
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The hypocrites thus tried to hide behind this 'oath'.
[al-Munafiqun 63:2] They make their oaths a shelter, and thus turn away from Allah's way; surely evil is that which they do.
The background is preparation of fight in the way of Allah, and the hypocrites were trying to wriggle out of it. They bore witness to the messenger trying to hide behind an 'oath'. Allah scorned at them saying that of course He knows that the messenger is the apostle of Allah, but the hypocrites are liars.
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Ibrahim says: Maybe you would need to read more ( ah yes! you are one who uses your own conjectures hence we need to excuse you for your blunders) , as to the background it has nothing to do with fighting in the cause of Allah but they were hypocrites and they were basically giving false testimonies and Allah (swt) knew that they are giving false testimonies, that is the theme of that surah.
Here let me give you yusof Ali commentary for that verse.
The hypocrite element, if one exists in any society, is a source of weakness and a danger to its health and its very existence. ** When the holy Prophet came to Madinah in Hijrat, his arrival was welcome to all the patriotic citizens: ** it not only united them in common life and healed their old differences, but it brought honour and light to them in the person of the greatest living Prophet. ** But there were some baser elements filled with envy. ** Such hopes as they had entertained of attaining power and leadership by playing on the animosities of the factions were now dashed to the ground. ** They now began to work underground. For fear of the majority they dared not oppose the new growing Brotherhood of Righteousness. They tried to undermine it by intriguing secretly with its enemies and swearing openly its loyalty to the holy Prophet. ** They were thoroughly unmasked and discredited at the battle of Uhud. See iii. 167, and n. 476.
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Yet today many people insist they add to their 'kalima' what the hypocrites said.
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Ibrahim says : that is due to your lack of knowledge and inability to understand even the title of that surah. Hypocrites are hypocrites, they due to their hypocrisy will always give false testimony , that is why they are called hypocrites.
But my point is that IF giving such testimony was not practiced or had not been approved by Allah (swt) you will not only see Allah (swt) exposing the hypocrites but also the condemnation of such testimonies.
I guess you just do not have sufficient senses to understand this point.
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* PakistaniAbroad says: My previous posts have the verses, which clarify that Allah alone as witness is enough. What is needed is for the person to declare his submission to Allah.
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Ibrahim says; you seem awfully silly and keep making assertions without valid proofs as to what you are implying. I have not seen you quote any verse where Allah (swt) had instructed those who submit to bare witness in this way or that way, such guidance’s are conveyed to the chosen prophet by the angels who are sent to guide him and than after conveyed to mankind by that prophet . It becomes a prophetic teaching and is practiced as such. But you are the denier of Prophetic teachings, so how do you expect to understand Islam?*
PA: Since you didn't do me the courtesy of searching my previous post for it, i'd have to reproduce it for you. (an-Nisa' 4:166) an-Nisa' 4:79]
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Ibrahim says: PA you are a very confused person, EVERY WORD, EVERY ACTION and every blink of an is witnessed by Allah (swt) that does not mean one does not need to affirm his faith in Allah (swt) when he/she chooses to submit to him. What I have said above is that you have not shown any verse in the Qur’an , where Allah (swt) had asked you to say this or that when you want to submit to him, ** what you have been toying with is the answer of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) to a question that was posed to him by Allah (swt) …that is not an affirmation of faith but a reply given to that question. ** The affirmation of faith are words that convey or established who that person has chosen to worship and who is the prophet he will be following.
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Now do you get it? Even the Prophet of Allah said Allah's testimony is the greatest. And he is not responsible when anyone assoicates anybody with Allah.
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Ibrahim says: why are you asking me to deny what Allah (swt) has conveyed , are you honestly a Muslim? So try not to play with revealed texts.
So far you have been saying
That Allah (swt) is the witness…who is denying that? But you go on to say the testimony for accepting Islam should be what Prophet Ibrahim said in reply to a question , that is your folly , because Allah (swt) is also a witness as to what was the Kalima taught by the Prophets and he had not objected to it, BUT YOU SEEM TO OBJECT TO IT BECAUSE YOU THINK SO…that my friend is foolishness and have to be exposed as foolishness in my view. ( which is what I have been doing even though , I have no desire to be involved in discussions in this month)
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Your folly here is that you do not realize that each prophet is responsible for his own flock ( meaning they will be the one to intercede (when allowed by Allah) on his/her behalf on the day of judgment and most of all they will be judged by what had been approved or disapproved for that Prophet and not by what has been approved or disapproved to another prophet) hence the testimony of the person who submits MUST clearly state who the person is submitting to and who is the Prophet he/she is following. *
PA: The most ignorant statement I've ever heard. How many overlapping messengers were they? you get all tongue tied when I ask you to tell me plainly, To whom did the people of Moses and Haroon testify?
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Ibrahim says; very hasty aren’t you? You ask a question and you claim I am tongue tied even before I have a chance to reply as per its relevance, are you dreaming or hoping I won’t be able to respond? Very silly indeed!
The Prophet Musa (pbuh) was sent to the Israelites and they had the same testimony as Muslims have been doing from the beginning BUT what was enjoined upon them and what is enjoined upon the current Muslims have similarities and variations. You should know them, if you had been studying the Qur’an.
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One simple answer will shatter your theory.
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Ibrahim says : sure it will just like you have shattering your own conjectures I suppose.
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Mr. Ibrahim, you give me doubts that you've ever even bothered to read the Qur'an. [Al-Imran 3:84] Say, `We believe in ALLAH and that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and in that which was given to Moses and Jesus and other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and to HIM we submit
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Ibrahim says: Here you go again making another silly comment, are you able to understand what I am saying, I repeat again ALL prophets are from Allah (swt) as such their affirmation of faith has always been La Ilaha Ill-Allah, you sound so silly when you try to tell a Muslim that he is unaware of the fact that all Prophets and messengers had only been submitting to Allah (swt) .
My above point was that a person who want to embrace Islam has to utter the shahada to affirm his faith in Allah (swt) alone, by saying La ilaha Ill-Allah and also attesting as to which prophet he is following, even though Allah (swt) knows what is in that person’s heart and mind even without such an utterance. We are bearing witness and Allah (swt) has asked us to bear witness.
In fact we will be judged by our intentions and actions , hence when one fails to utter the shahada thus disclosing his/her intentions, he cannot be a Muslim.
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Alas you do not submit to HIM but hide behind other oaths.
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Ibrahim says: Just Pathetic! Now you accuse me of bearing false testimony? Are you now going to claim you know me and what I profess too?
Be a man and proof your assertions, do not try to make statements or allegations that you cannot proof.
As far as I am concerned you are so silly to deny 1422 years of testimony , what else can anyone expect from such a person, accept folly? ?
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Let me remind you what Prophets are for. They are for WARNING and CONVEYING THE MESSAGE . Guidance is from Allah and it is HE who will take us to account. Prophet bear witness to their respective flock (not the other way around) on the Day of Judgement that they did convey the message clearly. Intercession lies with Allah, whomever he allows.
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Ibrahim says: why repeat what I have already confirmed?
BTW Contemplate on this…………
5: 8 ** O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses ** to fair dealing and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah for Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.
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[al-Ahzab 33:45.2] [an-Najm 53:56.2] [al-A`raf 7:184.10] [al-Baqarah 2:119.16] [al-Ma'idah 5:99] Prophet’s only responsibility to their flocks is conveying the message. They will bear witness to it in front of Allah.
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Ibrahim says: I suppose by quoting this you have altered what I have already said? No you seem blind, for I have told you clearly that It is Allah (swt) that will judge and those who follow that prophet have to attest to the fact they are following the message revealed through such and such prophet . so please grow up and proof your kalima was what Allah (swt) enjoined for mankind and prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had altered it, for that is the gist of your assertions on this thread.
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With time message of the messenger gets corrupted by the very Books of Hadith you hold dear and Allah needs to send in another messenger.
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Ibrahim says : so now you are silly enough to state what Allah (swt) will do next?
Frankly speaking the message gets misconceived because of tom dick and harries like you disseminating disinformation as to its meaning, according to their whims and fancies.
Seriously you need to get help, for you now claim the hadith will corrupt the Qur’an whereas earlier you swore the Qur’an cannot be corrupted.
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[Al-Imran 3:50.3] `And I come fulfilling that which is before me, namely the Torah; and to allow you some of that which was forbidden unto you, and I come to you with a Sign from your Lord; so fear ALLAH and obey me. Now what do the Jews do.. hmm keep Musa rasul allah, or Isa rasul ullah.?
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Ibrahim says: apparently you must have forgotten your glasses too, or was it that evil mind that snipped away the kalmias that I had quoted with regards to earlier prophets.
Here Read!
4:125 Wa man ahsanu dinam mimman aslama wajhahu_ lilla_hi wa huwa muhsinuw wattaba'a millata ibra_hima hanifa_(n), wattakhazalla_hu ** ibra_hima khalila_** (n).
this was the title given by Allah (swt) to prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) hence the followers of prophets Ibrahim testified
** la ilah Ill-Allahu Ibrahimu Khalilulla **
whether you chose to accept it or reject it is not the matter, but you are clearly one who denies truth out of arrogance and ignorance in defiance of what Allah (swt) had clearly confirmed to mankind.
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[al-Ma'idah 5:19.44] Now tell me are the people of Book going to sit tight and rejoice in what they have or should heed to what the ‘new’ messenger has brought?
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Ibrahim says: STOP running around the bush and proof your point according to this thread, after responding this far, I still do not see any proof for your new kalima and the failure of the Prophet to establish such a kalima.
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oh sure.. he left it upto Abu Huraira to report.. Nice.. keep on obeying him.
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Ibrahim says; I guess you have no answers accept, this foolish statement? BTW Abu Huraira has a better track record than you can have ever have .
Just wondering can you tell me where Abu Huraira reported it? ( I bet you will snip this off, like the others which you have no answers for)
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]* you see, earlier generations did take their prophets and anchorites as gods, hence when one testifies that so and so is only a messenger of Allah (swt) and not Allah (swt) or his equal in any form or shape, one establishes and testifies and ensures that the truth of who that person is remains unaltered for ever *
PA: Another gem.. Proof Sir.. verses.. no conjecture.
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Ibrahim says: sheez.. and you claimed you knew the Qur’an and I had taken false oaths…truly a silly person you have become
Read!
9: 31 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; Yet they were ** commanded to worship but one Allah: there is no god but He. ** Praise and glory to him: (far is He) from having the parents they associate (with him).
Ibrahim says; Did you get it? Or you need to be spoon fed all the time, notice the la ilah ill-Allah in this verse , even though it has been repeated over and over again, you seem to be the most silliest of people who would like to change it according to your whims and fancies BUT only fools will follow you on such matters.
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* Ibrahim says; man you are not asked to testify to anyone accept to Allah (swt) and the kalima taught by the prophet (pbuh) does not testify to the Prophet but attest that you are to be considered as being under his flock *
That’s the best ‘sidewinder’ that I’ve ever seen fired. Once again.. overlapping messengers is the question and you try and dodge it. Whose flock are people with two or three messengers among them?
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Ibrahim says; is that what is bothering you, whose flock are people with two or three messengers?.
I already gave you that answer, but I guess you lacked sufficient senses to understand such matters. You see when I quoted some of the kalimas of earlier Prophets I only quoted some of the prominent ones . If you had the brains you would have seen that these are the prophets who were sent with a book of their own ( thus the testimony is based on the revelation), hence the kalima remains the same for the duration of messengers that have been sent to confirm the same book and not the kalima used by the earlier Prophet for the earlier corrupted book, which led to the revelation of a new book.
Meaning when Prophet Musa (pbuh) came with the Torah, the shahada is made based on the contents of the torah and the Prophet assigned for it and all those messengers sent to reestablish the torah all fall under Prophet Musa’s shahada
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* Ibrahim says; this is your own conjecture and not based on what the Prophets had taught their followers. *
PA. I quoted qur’anic verses? You call that conjecture?
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Ibrahim says: absolutely, quoting Qur’anic verse which reveals a reply to Allah (swt) by a prophet and claiming it is a kalima for current Muslims based on your own whims and fancies amounts to conjecture and nothing more.
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* I had already quoted the testimony by many prophets and they have remained consistent. *
PA: Hello?? I did miss that. where are the verses from the Qur’an explaining that the Prophets asked and taught their people to witness they are messengers of Allah.
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Ibrahim says: blindness also seems to be your major problem, track back and read what I wrote, each prophet had a title bestowed upon them by Allah (swt) and that title was used for those prophets NOT “messenger of Allah” , which is used only for the final Prophet.
Do your home work, don’t try to tire me by spoon feeding you all the time.
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* Ibrahim says: yet we are not subject to what was given to prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) but what was given to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) *
PA: Read the Qur’an. [al-Hajj 22:78], NO matter which way you slice it. It’s the same Religion. The practices may have differed from time to time but we have all been Muslims from Day one, submitting to Allah. Quit making absurd theories about different religions.
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Ibrahim says : I think you are sick, honestly! for I have conveyed and have been expounding what is in the Qur’an and here in your inability to prove your point, you have resorted to accuse me of
1) making false oaths
2) not knowing the Qur’an
3) promoting different religions, when there is ONLY one religion.
what next? Are you able to save you neck or you want to end up being a false teacher and an enemy of Islam in this forum
just so that you mind has something to think about tell me how, what I said conveys that there were two religions?
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*Ibrahim says: PA, now explain to me why your kailma (aslamtu li rabbil 'a_lamin(a). is not found in the rest of the verses that you claim is supposedly the same kalima uttered by most of the other prophets ? *
PA: You are tied up in semantics. It happens when we grow up regarding text in Arabic as something surreal. Would it matter if it were not repeated?
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Ibrahim says: In other words you lied by claiming they uttered the same kalima…think about it lying is not permitted in Islam.
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Do you think the prophets said something other than meaning “We submit to the Lord of the Universe”??
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Ibrahim says; Firstly there is NO “we” in that verse, so go and read what was said as a reply by that Prophet to a question and try not to add into it, which would amount to altering the texts of the Qur’an
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Is it not clear what Ibrahim said? Is it not clear the Prophets repeated his message by saying the same. If the Qur’an doesn’t quote them verbatim do you think it makes it less of a statement? Yet you prefer to argue the wordings, not the concept.
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Ibrahim says: you are being silly, when some one ask another a question, one gives a reply , that reply can be used by others when they are asked such questions and here you have explicitly claimed such were the words used by all prophets…for which I see NO proof and the proof that you claimed you initially posted were untrue.
So either show us the verses that proofs the repeated use of those identical words or accept the fact that you are twisting and turning in order to deny the teachings of the final Prophet (pbuh)
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The concept is to declare submission to Allah, He has said HE HIMSELF is enough to testify to his oneness and he knows who his messengers are.
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Ibrahim says: are you trying to teach Allah (swt) and his prophet what the concepts are, when it is clear for Muslims across the globe as to what has been uttered for 1422 years. ?
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* Show me where in the Qur’an or another book the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught this “aslima li rabbil aalameen” (meaning : I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the universe." ) to his followers as the shahada ? *
PA: You must be joking? After having argued and quoted yourself the verse in which Ibrahim says “Aslamtu Li Rabbil Aalameen” you still demand proof?
Ibrahim says; as I said you are conjecturing!! Now show me evidence where the Prophet conveyed that to his followers as you have been demanding?
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How about YOU bring me proof FROM THE QUR”AN that that the Prophet commanded his people to say the kalima like you wish to recite; . complete with the testimony to the Prophet being messenger of Allah.
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Ibrahim says: . It is you who have been foolishly claiming the kalima used for 1422 years is wrong hence it is you who should put forward the evidence to proof your assertions.
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* Ibrahim says: you mean lets make a fool ourselves like you? *
PA: No, in your words.. Make a fool of yourself (naoozobillah)
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Ibrahim says: how could that be? when it is you who seems to be fool enough to deny the prophetic teachings and try to insist that you found averse in the Quran uttered by one Prophet as a reply to a question as such that must be the kalima?
Even though you admit the Prophet had conveyed the message as Allah (swt) had commanded, you in your folly deny THEM by claiming it must be wrong.
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like Ibrahim, his sons, sons of his sons, and our Prophet Muhammad. I can only pity your insolence that you will call Ibrahim’s words, as mentioned in the Qur’an as folly?
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Ibrahim says : You must be too silly to underhand what I am saying! I am saying your words are folly not any of the Prophets or are any message found in the Qur’an or authentic prophetic teachings. .
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Who do you follow? Who’s your lord? Allah? His Book says Ibrahim said “Aslamtu Li Rabbil Aalameen”. You gonna call it folly?? How sad.
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Ibrahim says: so when you cannot provide clear answers and you have ended up running around in circles , you will resort to twisting my words too…sorry, try someone else, what I have conveyed is clearly written and found on this thread as is!
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“la ilaha illa huwa” is in MANY places in the Qur’an. However the point remains that it’s not used in the context of accepting the religion. And that Allah is enough as a witness. The believer’s first belief is the same.
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Ibrahim says: Guess I have to repeat myself, you are too silly to understand these things. The Kalima is a testimony and it does not need to be present in the Qur’an yet it is found in it and more often than your notion…so either grow up or keep deluding yourself even further. None can help you unless Allah (swt) had willed and for sure we can see that he has left you to stray
When Allah (swt) himself had chosen to repeat that verse ( used as the kalima for 1422 years by Muslims) again and again, it does not take a rocket scientist to note its importance but for deaf, dumb and blind people they can do what they like.
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The discussion is on ‘declaring’ one’s belief in Allah and why this unnecessary addition of messenger’s name. And I did quote various verses in which prophets declared their allegiance to Allah by saying they “Submit to the Lord of the Worlds”
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Ibrahim says: Stop lying, I already proved to all that , the kalima you quote is only found as is in one verse and that too it is a reply to a question and not uttered as a testimony or declaration of faith in Allah (swt)
I had also explained clearly why a person who declares his faith in Islam has to also declare which Prophet’s foot steps he /she is adhering to.
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* Ibrahim says; show me how many times your new kalima (“aslima li rabbil aalameen”) is repeated in the Qur’an? *
PA: So your kalima should be la ilaha illa huwa. That’s what is repeated.. NOT EVEN ONCE does Allah say ‘la ilaha il allah Muhammad ur rasul ullah”. . NOT ONCE or you would have brought it forth by now. But hey, I could have missed it.. you can still quote it, or from the other Books you hold so dear.
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Ibrahim says: Tell you what, you use whatever kalima your mind conjures ( for your brains had jammed and does not seem to be able to digest what had already been conveyed to you by many) but Muslims are enjoined to follow what their prophet taught and for sure he did not teach what you wish to establish, so either proof that Allah (swt) enjoined such and such and the prophet deviated from it or proof Muslims for 1422 years had been renegades denying what the Prophet had enjoined.
PA, If you cannot do that, ** giving you any credence would amount to folly and Islam teaches that one should not be in such a persons company,** so go in peace Allah (swt) is awake!
** BTW we know now why you are insisting that the kalima is wrong from your own comments made on another thread. **
PA WROTE:
** I let my mind roam free ** and am not chained down by tradition and dogmas.
My mission is to combat ignorance and tradition ** and let free thought rule.** I'll be alone for a long part of it.. ** but sooner or later.. someone else will open their mind, break the shackles and join in thinking freely.**
Ibrahim says: the animals too roam freely and Allah (swt) knows best as to what they will be held accountable for but human beings are warned to follow their Prophets.
Was salaam
Ibrahim