Qalma, wrong?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.

Why do we say the second part? In the Qalma, in the Azaan, even in prayer, why are we elevating Mohammed so high as to put him nearer to god? Is this not Shirk? Does the Quran tell us that we are supposed to say this? What about Prophets before Mohammed came? Why don’t we say “…and Eisa is the messenger of Allah”?

Note, the qalma doesn’t say Mohammed is the last messenger of Allah, it only says Mohammed is the messenger of Allah. What about muslims before Mohammed? Ibrahim, Eisa and Musa, they had brought Islam too, did they and their followers recited “There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is His messenger” before they even knew of Mohammed.

Lastly, I believe the only mention of the phrase “We bear witness that you are the messenger of Allah” (Said to Mohammed) is said by Hypocrictes and Liars, according to Allah. Surah Munafiqoon, verse 1:

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(63:1) When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, “We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah.” Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars.

So is the Quran saying that people who bear witness that Mohammed is the messenger of Allah are Hypocrites and liars?

Let the arguments begin. Please post Quranic references ONLY, not hadeeth. Thank you.

2

dear bro, Quran is confirming that they are liars and kafirs, because eventhough they acknowledge hazoor being Allah's prophet, yet they dont obey him!
You are doing the same here by doubting the kalma. If you consider Allah, the Almighty to be your God, then you must follow what he orders you. That is because he knows all, we dont. He is Malik, we are makhlooq.
He has Hazoor's name attached to the kalma, and only he knows the true rank of our dear Prophet (saww). Stop trusting the mullas, or the books published by Saudi Govts.
KH

3

[quote]
Originally posted by aahmed:
**What about Prophets before Mohammed came? Why don't we say "...and Eisa is the messenger of Allah"?

Thank you.**
[/quote]

Jesus, upon his return to the earth, will read the Kalma as we all do. Riwayat also tell us that he will pray behind Imam Mehdi (as), and will be considered Prophet Mohammad's ummati.

4

La Ilaha Illalah Mohamadan Rasoolilah.

First tennet of Islam....If you want to start a debate about this...some people may question if you are a muslim...ofcourse I would never do that.

[This message has been edited by Thap (edited November 16, 2001).]

5

Quran is not saying what you are saying. In Quran, Allah SWT told Prophet PBUH about the hypocrites of his time how they behave/beleive. They only SAY that Prophet PBUH is messenger, but in their hearts they didn’t BELEIVE it thats why they are called hypcorites. This AYAT does not imply that whoever says “you are messenger of Allah” is a hypocrite.

If you read the whole AYAT, it means that when hypocrites come to you (Prophet) they say that “you are messenger of Allah”, and Allah surely knows that you (Prophet) are His messenger but Allah SWT knows for sure that these hypocrites are liars (they are not SAYING what they BELEIVE).

http://www.gupistan.com/gallery/1/63_1.gif

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited November 16, 2001).]

6

[quote]
Originally posted by aahmed:
*....
why are we elevating Mohammed so high as to put him nearer to god? Is this not Shirk?
*

By being His messenger, how can we equate Prophet PBUH with Allah SWT??? How can a 'messenger' be equivalent to The Creator, The 'message sender' at all?

Does the Quran tell us that we are supposed to say this? What about Prophets before Mohammed came? Why don't we say "...and Eisa is the messenger of Allah"?

Quran does say that you should beleive in Prophets before Mohammed PBUH also. Read 02:285
[285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His Messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

Quran does not say the Kalima we see around now. Quran gave us a more comprehensive one as above. But as we are supposed to follow Prophet Mohammed PBUH only, we say his name as a messenger as part of kalima.

Note, the qalma doesn't say Mohammed is the last messenger of Allah, it only says Mohammed is the messenger of Allah. What about muslims before Mohammed? Ibrahim, Eisa and Musa, they had brought Islam too, did they and their followers recited "There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is His messenger" before they even knew of Mohammed.

Each Messenger carried same message. Follower of each religion SHOULD beleive in their MESSENGER. And when a new messenger arrived, last religion should be abondened. Thats why Jews were supposed to follow Essa (Jesus), Christians were supposed to follow Prophet Mohammed PBUH.

[/quote]

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited November 16, 2001).]

7

aahmed, u must be insane....
no one EQUATES the prophet to Allah....
and it is a verse of the Quran,

"o you who believe, do not differentiate between the hand of the prophet and the hand of Allah"

I do not intend to say that Muhammad is equivalent to Allah, but I want to show u that Muhammad is held in very high esteem by Allah, the Lord Almighty, Himself....
and u say that those who add Muhammad Rasool-Allah r munafiqoon....
NO ONE can be a MUSLIM if he REFUSES to the fact that MUHAMMAD is A PROPHET (THE LAST) OF ALLAH....
even if someone is a firm believer of the existence of Allah and in all His sifaat and prays to Him all his life, he will be a KAAFIR (an infidel) if he does not add MUHAMMAD RASOOL-ALLAH at the end of the kalimah....

Umar bun Khattab beheaded one person cuz he always recited surah abasa (abasa wa tawala) cuz that guy intended to show disrespect to the Prophet....
in this particular surah Allah has shown dislikedness for the refusal of the Prophet for letting a poor blind man sit with the nobles of Quraysh while he preached them Islam....

may Allah guide u to the truth....

8

As I expected, no references, just jaahil style emotional outbursts. One gentleman made a good point that the Quran says to believe in all messengers, but the quran also says not to differentiate between the messengers, yet when we say Mohammedur rasoolullah as the core of our faith, we are putting Mohammed above the rest of the prophets, thus, disobeying what the quran has specifically ordered us to do.

But as I expected, no real discussion here with you people who tend to react with emotions rather than logic. I would expect anything less from y'all.

9

Those of us who use faith aswell as logic;

Faith= Confidence, Trust, Reliance

Logic=Reason, Judgement, Sense

have no qualms about the Qalma.

Did Armughal's quote from the Quran not convince you of the esteem in which Muhammad Salle Alay Wasallam is held.

"o you who believe, do not differentiate between the hand of the prophet and the hand of Allah"

We as muslims know that God is absolute and has no equals. We also recognise the importance of our prophet (pbuh).

Hence, La Illaha Illalah Mahamadan Rasoolillah.

[This message has been edited by Thap (edited November 16, 2001).]

10

aahmed,

Since when can we start using logic to understand Islam? Logical thought and reason based discussions have for long been enemies of Islam and the Muslim preachers. Much has been written about this.

If you thought about your question reasonably, you yourself will arrive at the true reason why Mohammad's name is uttered in the same breath as Allah's name. Where do you think this "kalma" came from?

11

Gentlmen,

PLEASE quote the verse and ayat number whenever you quote from the Qur'an.

It's not child's play. It's God's word. So please be courteous enough to provide the reference to statements alluding to the Qur'an.

Thanks indeed.

P. S. Please try and stay calm, open your minds, THINK FREELY and then write. Emotions cloud our judgement.

12

[quote]
Originally posted by Logic User:
**aahmed,

Since when can we start using logic to understand Islam? Logical thought and reason based discussions have for long been enemies of Islam and the Muslim preachers. Much has been written about this.

If you thought about your question reasonably, you yourself will arrive at the true reason why Mohammad's name is uttered in the same breath as Allah's name. Where do you think this "kalma" came from?**
[/quote]

So you don't believe in KALMA, so how can you consider yourself a MUSLIM??!

“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

13

ahmad...<<There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.<<

and then you say...<< Why do we say the second part?<<.... but in next line you yourself answer this...<<it only says Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.<<...you ask a question and then answer it yourself.

ahmad... <>

It is only logical and humanly possible to add the name of the last messenger to recite his name in the declaration as if you would have to start naming everyone, it would take hours, if not days to name over 186,000 messengers. That wont make much sense. But yes a Muslim believes on all of them and their messengerhood.

ahmad....>>Let the arguments begin. Please post Quranic references ONLY, not hadeeth. Thank you.<<

But you did not post any Qura~nic reference to support your pov. I think you have no problem reciting kalma, as, 'there is no God but Allah, and Mirza Gholam Ahmad is the messenger of Allah' (Nauzobillah!)

ahmad...>>but the quran also says not to differentiate between the messengers, yet when we say Mohammedur rasoolullah as the core of our faith, we are putting Mohammed above the rest of the prophets, thus, disobeying what the quran has specifically ordered us to do. <<

when Qura~n exhorts us not differentiate between prophets, it means that all of them must be treated as prophets, but Qura~n does elevate or differentiate between all prophets. It is ordained in sura Al-Baqrah

"Of these messengers, we have exhalted some above others." (2:253)

It is like if someone asks a Mirzai, that Mirza Gholam Ahmad or Mirza Bashir Ahmad are the same?? Your answer would be NO!

14

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**Gentlmen,

P. S. Please try and stay calm, open your minds, THINK FREELY and then write. Emotions cloud our judgement.**
[/quote]

No, no room for emotion in religion.....how absurd.

15

zawiyaefikr, well said. I think the cat is out of the bag! LOL

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

16

salaam

as for the statement that the people before said 'muhammad rasool allaah (sallallaaho alaihi wa sallam) that is wrong. When Allaah sent messengers before muhammad sallallaaho alaihi wa sallam they called people to la ilaha il allaah and then to testify that they were allaah's messengers. So Nuh alaihis salaam called people to la ilaha il allaah nuh rasool allaah, and likewise did the ulul azm rasool's. If a muslim does not say that Isa is the messenger of Allaah then that person negates their imaan adn islaam.
I think the verse that you have quoted from surah al munafiqoon is self explanatory. Allaah azza wajal is bearing witness that when the 'munafiqoon' -hypocrites- claim that Muhammad sallallaaho alaihi wa sallam is the Messenger of Allaah they are in fact lying about believing that. Had they believed that he was the Messenger of Allaah they would not ahve been classified as munafiqoon, a classification that only Allaah azza wajal can make and not any human, including Muhammad sallAllaaho alaihi wa sallam. So my dear friend a Muslim, who has imaan in the nubowwat of Muhammad sallAllaaho alaihi wa sallam, is not a munafiq.

17

please post me a quraanic reference for the whole kalima. Show me the verse where it says categorically 'laa ilaho il allaah muhammad rasool allaah'. Do not try to unite two verses to make this up. My dear friend this is islam not trinitarian nonsense. Wake up!

18

[quote]
Originally posted by aahmed:
.....that the Quran says to believe in all messengers, but the quran also says not to differentiate between the messengers

Quran forbids 'us' to differentiate, it means that we can't say that Essa was better, or Mohammed PBUH was better, or whatever. All we can say is that they were messengers of Allah, and its only Allah SWT who knows about the levels among them.

yet when we say Mohammedur rasoolullah as the core of our faith, we are putting Mohammed above the rest of the prophets

because we are supposed to follow Prophet Mohammed PBUH thats why we say as part of kalima.

Question for you: who says that you have to say kalima?

**thus, disobeying what the quran has specifically ordered us to do.

.....I would expect anything less from y'all.**

pretty judgemental, heh?
why don't you prove your notion that saying "la ilaha illAllah Muhammad-ur-rasoolul-Allah" makes up a shirk? use QURAN to prove your point.

[/quote]

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

19

[quote]
Originally posted by Mr laparwa:
.... So Nuh alaihis salaam called people to la ilaha il allaah nuh rasool allaah, and likewise did the ulul azm rasool's. .....
[/quote]

can you provide a Quranic reference please. Thanks.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

20

what do u mean by NO REFERENCE aahmed....
dint i tell u that these r verses from the Quran....
they r so famous that I dont expect any MUSLIM to be unaware of them so I did not care to mention the exact chapter and verse #....

anyway, if u were a muslim by heart u wud know that no muslim likes to hear such crap and will giove u an outburst....
can get even more fierce than this....