Ash-hadu-an-la-ilaaha illallaho wahdahu la-shareekallahu wa ash-hadu-anna muhammadun abduhu wa rasoolohu
ama-ba'ado fee aaozubillah-ed-minushaitaan-nirajeem
bismillah-hirahman-nirraheem
Dear Niaz bhai,
Pace be upon you!
Reading your post have made me even more confused about your idea about jesus' death. but i thank you for taking so much time and effort for discussing it with me, and i pray to allah that this discussion leads both of us to draw the right conclusion.anyways i will continue to discuss...
first of all, an apology from me, and a clarification of jama'at, then the other points.
---) Rafay, my personal mistake, jama'at-e-ahmadiya's real stand, and a clear cut point:
I am absolutelty sorry that i have been doing a big mistake due to a lack of knowledge at my part.. i apologize for it, and jama'at has to say , that this was my personal mistake, and MUST NOT be associated to the whole jama'at-e-ahmadiyya.. i apologize for my mistake, and jama'at has told me there real stand about thr meaning of rafay:
izzat dena, darjaat buland kerna
now in order to tell the meaning of rafay, Jama'at-e-ahmadiyaa refers to a known Sahih hadith:
izaa tawaza'alabdu raf'ahullah-o-ilassamaa-isabiate
"jab koi shaks allah kee taraf tawazuh ikhtiaar kertaa hai, to "raf'ahullah-o-ilassamaa-isabiate"
-( kanz-al-amaal book 2, s25)
it gives the clear meaning of rafay! if rafay means what you say, then you will find out that according to this hadith, all the prophets, all the ulema, all the saints, all the good people of the world, are on the seventh sky and living !!!!
doesnt it leave you and me with no other option to believe that jesus is dead!
---) How many times?
this is my answer to u saying,
aqal mand admi (thanx for the compliment :)) agar Hazrat Eisa bhi tamam doosray paighambaroon ki tarah wafat pa gaay hotay to Allah SWT Quran main itnee jagah Rafah ka lafz Hazrat Eisa key liay kiyon istimal kertay
and later about the same thing...
...so many times....
and again...
...so many times....
first of all, allah did NOT use the word rafay "so many times". It is only their two times in the koran, that allah mentions the rafay/jesus thing. so dear, it is a wrong impression that the maulvis have given you.. u can see yourself in the whole koran. please dont go for what maulvis say.. they are only there to mislead people.
but they can not hide the fact that jesus is dead!
---) One lakh rupees, my challenge, your joke
please do me one favour.. if you dont mind... please find me ANYTHING from arabic literature, which uses the word rafay, and means to pick up on sky. this word has never been used in the meaning anywhere in arabic.. then how come it changed its meaning for jesus? what special thing is in jesus, that a word changes its meaning when related to him?
if you dont want 1 lakh rupees, and only want to let me know the truth, then i change my challenge
find me ANYWHERE in arabic literature, where the word rafay is used for anyone other than jesus, and means, to pivk up with the whole body towards the secenth sky. if u are able to do that, i will leave ahmadiyyat!
now what?
if you are not able to find it, then it will mean jesus is dead!
----) Kad khalat .....
u say:
jaisa un say pehlay rasool guzray
this clearly shows all the prophets before him have died.
if you know arabic, you will realize that "guzar gaye" is used for death.. but if it isnt,
then we take your maulvi's translation, that guzray means... like.. to pass on a passage, now the whole ayat means..
muhammad siraf aik rasool hain, aur jesay aap say pehlay tamam rasool raaston per say guzray, waisay aap bhee katal ho jaain ya faut ho jain........
dioes this make any sense?? before asking your maulvi, try asking it one time from yourself.. allah is telling about muhammad's death, comparing it to the previous prophets... does it make sense that allah is comparing " kisi raah yaa raod per guzarna" of other prophets with the death of Muhammad??
the second part is.. muhammad 'bhee' katal kiye jaain ya faut ho jain... note that bhee is used, telling that the same thing happened to all the other prophets! anyways, if you have some knowledge of arabic you will know that guzar jaana is also used for death, exactly the same way as it is used in urdu, english, (passed away) and in many other languages of the world INCLUDInG ARABIC!
you say, "hur lafaz ka mutlub wafaat nahee hotaa"
the mosty authentic dictionary of arabic language, called taaj-ul-uroos says:
"khala-falaanun iza maata"
or, in urdu,
jab kisi shaks kay baray main yeh kaha jaye, kay "khala falanun" to is ka mutlub hai woh MUR GAYA!!! or iza maata!
i have already told you that taaj-ul-uroos is believed to be the most authentic deictionary of arabic language, and it is a known fact that it IS NOT WRITTEN BY AHMADIS!
then why does it always support MY point of view, and never does it support YOURS! do u have any answer to that????
Muhammad is dead, and as allah has said, all other prophets are dead too! becoz
one, khala falaanun iza maata
and second, kad khalat min kablehirrusul
as clear as can be!
jesus is dead!
---) Ulemaa, my question, your reply
ulemaa, the meaning you told me of the word, i believe in that meaning, but you are saying, the bad things are only in the ulema of the subcontinent???
the ahadith i have mentioned ARE NOT FOR ULEMAA OF A GEOGRAPHICAL REIGON, BUT FOR ALL THE ULEMA OF THE ZAMANA!
Please read the ahadith again.. the ahadith which are clearly pointing out, that the ulema of our zamana are "the worst creations on the earth" and we should go in the jungle and eat leaves, but not follow them!
We NEED to talk about ulemaa of the previous zamana! i do believe in ulemaa, why did it surprise you?
infact it surprises ME, that you say believe in ulemaa, and u never listened to the words of the real ulemaas, whom i talked about in my previous post. they are the real ulemaas, and they should be held more authentic than the maulvi of today!
as for your question about where imam malik say jesus is dead,
"imam malik says jesus is DEAD!" (majma-uj-jaar, book 1, s 286)
now u must believe in imama malik, imam bokhari, imam ibn-e-hazam, and above all, hazrat ibn-e-abaas! do you prefer to listen to them? or do u prefer to listen to who Muhammad mentions as, "worst creation on earth" !!
----) you fatwaa/statment/whatever kaafir who? me or you?
my point about ahadith is,
where does it say in the koran that all ahadith are true? Kalimas, from 1 to 6, the iman-e-mufassil, the iman-e-mujammil, these things define the iman. niether of them say we must also have iman on ALL the ahadith.
1) Do you know more than the one who chose kalimas, the iman-e-mufassil, and iman-e-mujammil?
2) Collecting the ahadith is a work of normal human beings, and thus it is NOT possible for it to be FREE OF ERRORS..
3) Allah has promised us the protection of koran, but not the protection of ahadith, thus it is known that koran should be preffered on ahadith.
it is not possible for human beings to know which hadith is sahih and which is zaeef.. therefore any such hadith which is against the koran is not acceptable!
mere bhai, aap nay jo statment dee hai, is kay baaray main to yehi kahoon ga, kay aik hadeeth to known hai, aur sahih hai, that :
"the one who calls a kalma-sayer a kafir, is a kafir himself" !!
Now there are two cases:
1) You believe in this sahih hadith:
i am a kalma-sayer.. and u called me kafir. If you believe in the hadith, you are a kafir yourself!
2) You do not believe in this sahih hadith:
If you do nt believe in it, then you are a kafir according to your own fatwaa!
to is statment kay mutabik aap khood kaafir ho!
even agar koi hadeeth koran kay mutabik ho, aur koi shaks usay deny karay.. o phir bhee humain us ko kafir nahee kehnaa chahiye, kyoonke is tarah kehnay say hum khood kaafir ho jaain gay..(according to my above hadith)
mere bhai, aap nay yeh baat ghalat kahee hai, aur aap ko chahiye kay ghaltee maan jao.. jo baatain confusing hain, un per to hum discussion ker saktay hain, magar jo baat ghalat hai, woh ghalat hai! is baat ka hamaree discussion say bhee koi ta'aluk nahee. agar hum nay discussion say faidaa uthaana hai, to is tarah kee fazool baaton say perhaiz kerna ho ga. aap nay yeh ghalat baat kee hai, agar yeh sahee hai, to aap khood hee kaafir ho, aur agar yeh sahee nahee.. to mujhay buhut khoshee ho gee, agar aap apnee yeh baat waapis lay lo.. kyoonke aap nay yeh baat sahee nahee kee!
-----) jesus son of mary lived for 120 years..
you say: "Now ulama say this hadith is a zaeef hadith"
this shows that you have read the hadith and that is why you know about it! this was exactly the impression i got.. until i read you saying:
" lets say it's a sahih hadith then also where did it says that Hazrat Eisa is dead"
this statment from you made me realize that my brother has not read this hadith.. and i wonder how u get to know about if a hadith is sahih or zaeef, when u have never read it before.. even if someone tells you that this&this hadith is zaeef, then the only thing one does is to go and see which one it is.. but u have not read the hadeeth, which means that sitting infront of your computer, you "discovered" the fact that it is zaeef!
the whole hadith says,Muhammad said, that there is no prophet who havent had aproximately half the age of the previous prophet. Jesus died on the age of about 120, which means i will die around the age of sixty!
if jesus was still living, then the age of jesus can not be 120!
one more point:
"Considering this hadith sahih also it just says Hazrat Eisa lived for 120 years (on earth and now he is not on earth, i.e. taken up by God)."
what had happened to you history, and religius knowledge? the age when you people say he was picked up by god, he age when the christains say he was crucuified, it was around 30! and not 120! so please clear this thing out.
---) jesus AND moses
about the hadith u said, it only mentions moses, please read the arabic:
lao kana mosa wa eesa hayyaine lama wa se'ahuma illatteba'ee
(ibn-e-kaseer part 2, s-246)
please go and read the hadith. and dont say it is zaeef becoz it isnt. look at your maulvis, they have misguided you so much, that they have changed the whole hadith! they have taken out eesa out if it! all they can do is misguide people!
okay.. wel looking at the arabic hadith, it is but clear that jesus is dead!
----) Wafaat, the meaning:
u say:
"Insan ki maut per jo wafat ka lafz bola jata hay woh is liay keh us key jismaani ikhtiaraat mukammal tor per salb (qabz) ker liay jatay hain. Is lihaz say maut is key maani ki mukhtalif surtoon main say eik surat hay. "
yahaan pur aap aik baat bhool rahay hain, kay is aayat kay turjuma main HAZRAT IBN_e_ABAAS nay wafaat ka mutlub MOT bataya hai! kyaa aap ka ilam hazrat ibn-e-abaas say ziada hai? hazrat ibn-e-abaas say ziada ilm , mujhy aur aap ko, ya kisi maulvi ko nahee!
main nay previous post main bhee yeh baat aap ko bataee thee, magar shayad aap nay ghaur nahee kiyaa, is liye main dobara bata detaa hoon:
"If you see Bokhari kitaab-ul-tafseer, you will see that hazrat ibn-e-abaas has told about this, that "mutawaffaika" means "mumaituka"! if you talk about ulema, then who can be a bigger alim than someone for whom Muhammad has prayed himself !
and Imam bokhari, the great, has wrote this thing in his book, which means that he believed it too! thus stamping the topic with his own belief too!"
there is no doubt that no maulvi of today has better knowledge that idn-e-abaas! and also keep in mind that imam bokhari also believed the same thing. ibn-e-abaas is someone, Muhammad prayed for, and the maulvis are the one about wchich Muhammad sais, they will be the worst creation on earth! now who will you prefer to listen to? a real alim? or the worst creation on earth?
now what more can i say?
ulemaa have done their job,
taaj-ul-uroos clearly says:
tuwuffiya falaanun, iza maata !!!!!
or in urdu,
"jub kehtay hain tuwuffiya falaanun, to is ka matlab hai woh mur gaya! "
what more do you want?
as for your verses you have mentioned, i will discuss them :
al zumr, 42:
this aayat surely says wafaat for neend. as i have told you in my previous post also, that wafaat is used for neend as well as death! but you must know one rule of arabic language.. when wafaat has to be used for neend, then we add a special phrase, or a kareena, showing that this qabz-e-rooh is temprory. which is evident from the ayat u have given, where the kareena os 'raat' is given! when there is no kareena, then wafaat means death! as u can see in sorah momin, verse 78, or surah airaaf 127. here, in these aayats, together with the other ones, there is no kareena hence death is the meaning!
you said: "is key haqiqi aur asal maani pura pura lainay key he hain "
how and where? which arabic scholar said that? which dictionary? refer to it!
and more on alims, from my previous post:
"imam-ibn-e-hazam, who says, exlaining tuwuffi, that it is either used as death, or for sleep (with a "kareena" explaning that the kabaz is temprory, as in one of the verses you gave), but imam ibn-e-hazam goes forth to explain that in eesaa's case, it does not mean "sleep" thus clearly means "death".
(see al-mujallah part 1 s-23)"
thus, ibn-e-hazam, hazrat ibne abaas, and imam bokhari have made the things clear to us.
----) your aayat, my point:
Surah.. 157 to 158
Wa qaulaihem inna qatalna ….. wa ma qataluhu yaqeena. Bar rafa'ahullahu alaihe wa kanallahu azizan hakeema.
raf'ahullaho aliah... means ooper uthaa liyaa?
izaa tawaza'alabdu raf'ahullah-o-ilassamaa-isabiate
"jab koi shaks allah kee taraf tawazuh ikhtiaar kertaa hai, to "raf'ahullah-o-ilassamaa-isabiate"
-( kanz-al-amaal book 2, s25)
it gives the clear meaning of rafay! if rafay means what you say, then you will find out that according to this hadith, all the prophets, all the ulema, all the saints, all the good people of the world, are on the seventh sky and living !!!!
doesnt it leave you and me with no other option to believe that jesus is dead!
---) rafah with wafaat... even stronger point..
now that the jama'at has made clear its stand on the meaning of rafay, i think i am more able to understand the aayat you mentioned:
the house of imran, verse 56:
yaa eesaa inni mutawaffaika wa rafe'uka...
note that wafaat is used first.. meaning that first the wafaat is given then the rafa takes place.. becoz it is said, that first the wafaat will be given, and then rafah will be given. and ofcourse the rafah which takes place after wafaat is rohani, and not jismaani.. thus making it clear that when allah talks about the rafah of jesus, it means rohani rafah, yaani darjaat bulund kernaa, aur izzat denaa! agar rafah ka mutlub zindaa uthaana hai, to wafaat ka lafaz pehlay byaan kyoon huwaa hai?
i think this aayat clearly proves what rafay means, and clearly states that jesus is dead!
----) one point u forgot : (death of jesus and shirk of his nation)
oops! you forgot to answer this point .. i am cutting and pasting it from previous post:
You have a confusion about this aayat, possibly because you didnt read it, or possibly because my language was confusing. i know the same meaning as mushrikeen, as you have told, but the thing you are discussing is not what i am saying. i think i should be more clear and precise now.
i mentioned two verses, coming one after another.
if you read them you will find out, that they say,
that allah asked jesus, that did you tell your people there are three gods? or in other words, did you teach them to be mushrikeen?
jesus replied, no allah, i only told them what was right, and untill i was alive, i witnessed that they were not mushrikeens (i.e. did not believe in three gods) but when i died, (wafaat) i was not a witness over them, so i dont know that they became mushrikeen after my death
now, if you believe that christians are mushrikeen, then you have to believe that jesus is no more witness over them, and is dead, as said by the koranic verse! u said that this dialogue is of kayamat, then too.. its meaning is the same! if jesus will come back, then he will WITNESS that his kaum are mushrikeen....if he witnesses it, then why does he say that i did not witness it? nobody can tell lies on kayamat. if jesus did witness them to be mushrikeen, then how can he tell a lie on kayamat day?
if you believe in the ayat, then you must believe that until jesus is alive, no chritian is mushrik! after jesus dies, then they well get spoiled! this is clearly mentioned in the aayat! therefore as we can see the christians are mushrikeen, it also means that jesus cannot witness them any more.. and also means that jesus is dead!
---) another forgotten point: ( Jesus, a human being??)
If jesus is a human being, he is dead!
because it is allah's rule that human beings have to live their lives, and then die, on earth(chapter 7 verse 25)!
and also it is allah's rule, that human beings cant climb the sky, (chapter 17, verse 92,93,94)
dear niaz bhai... i am young and unnecessarily emotional (sometimes) .. if in the discussion, agar main nay koi gussay walee baat keh dee ho, ya aap kee feelings ko hurt kiyaa ho, ya insaan honay kay naatay koi aur ghaltee kee ho, ya aindaa mujh say aisee ghaltee ho jaye, to chota bhai samajhtay huwaa muaaf ker dena.. this difference in our point of you does not make me angry with you, and i have a lot of respect for you in my heart.
may allah be your protector
